Tinkers In Our Future?

[Rudkobing]

Maybe.

/10 in the year 2000

[Ielenia]

My argument is that WoW has been going on for over a decade and the other races are stuck in the middle ages with no evidence of them producing advanced tech. Your argument is that Blizzard would have told us that Gnomes were going to be magical in WoW before WoW even came out.

Except you keep acting as if the entirety of Warcraft lore begins and ends with World of Warcraft, which is not true. It started with Warcraft 1, and gnomes existed already way back in Warcraft 2. Until WoW launched, which is when gnome mages and warlocks were implemented, there was no lore at all for gnomes to be of any spellcasting class. We had cases for other races to be spellcasters, but not for gnomes. Ergo, by your own argument, gnome mages and warlocks should not exist at all. That's your argument, plain and simple.

Well it's not just that their cities are something out of the 1600s, it's also that there's no human, tauren, draenei, troll, orc, forsaken, etc. mechs anywhere, despite your assertion that there's tons of non Goblin/Gnome prodigies running around.

Fuck, Teriz, do you take some sort of sick sexual pleasure from misrepresenting and strawmaning other people's arguments? That was never my argument. I said that technology prodigies could come from other races. And again, it matters little that the other cities look like they came from the sixteenth century or not, because said cities live alongside the technology and it is still widely known and accepted. So much so that there's a 100% tech tram connecting Stormwind and Ironforge, engineers can operate out in the open, and the Alliance has a flying carrier ship.

Yes, and there's no proof of concept for a non goblin/gnome mech Tinker.

What you just wrote above is the very proof that you don't know what 'proof of concept' really means. Here's how it works: a) we have engineers from other races; b) every now and then, prodigies from all races emerge (the so-called heroes, i.e., the player characters); c) engineers can build and pilot mechs. Putting together 'a', 'b' and 'c', and we have the proof of concept that a non-goblin, non-gnome race can be a tech class.

Ignoring the size issue because its irrelevant; For your argument to work, all races would have to be equal to Goblins and Gnomes technologically in order to build and pilot the mechs on the same level as those two races.

No, it doesn't. At all. We're not talking about the races as a whole, we're talking about heroes, about individuals. And an individual human or forsaken or draenei or pandaren can achieve the same level of technology expertise as the expert gnomish and goblin engineers, maybe even surpass them.

[Teriz]

Except you keep acting as if the entirety of Warcraft lore begins and ends with World of Warcraft, which is not true. It started with Warcraft 1, and gnomes existed already way back in Warcraft 2. Until WoW launched, which is when gnome mages and warlocks were implemented, there was no lore at all for gnomes to be of any spellcasting class. We had cases for other races to be spellcasters, but not for gnomes. Ergo, by your own argument, gnome mages and warlocks should not exist at all. That's your argument, plain and simple.

Sorry, but your argument literally makes no sense. *MY* argument is that since the other WoW races' tech level is far below that of Gnomes and Goblins, they aren't capable of creating mechs to pilot.

Fuck, Teriz, do you take some sort of sick sexual pleasure from misrepresenting and strawmaning other people's arguments? That was never my argument. I said that technology prodigies could come from other races. And again, it matters little that the other cities look like they came from the sixteenth century or not, because said cities live alongside the technology and it is still widely known and accepted. So much so that there's a 100% tech tram connecting Stormwind and Ironforge, engineers can operate out in the open, and the Alliance has a flying carrier ship.

Well just for example, Humans live alongside technology, that doesn't mean that they embrace it. Humans can use it, but they can't create any of it. Sort of like how Warmachine can pilot an Iron Man suit, but he isn't Tony Stark, who constantly builds and enhances new Iron Man suits.

What you just wrote above is the very proof that you don't know what 'proof of concept' really means. Here's how it works: a) we have engineers from other races; b) every now and then, prodigies from all races emerge (the so-called heroes, i.e., the player characters); c) engineers can build and pilot mechs. Putting together 'a', 'b' and 'c', and we have the proof of concept that a non-goblin, non-gnome race can be a tech class.

There's that argument again; What you wrote only works if all engineers in the game are equal, something even you're claiming to not be the case. We've observed Goblins and Gnomes building and piloting mechs, we have never seen anyone else doing it. Additionally, we have evidence that Goblin and Gnome (mechanical) technology is well beyond the tech of other races, so clearly all engineers are not equal. An orc who can design and construct a catapult is an engineer. That doesn't mean he can build Gazlowe's Shredder.

No, it doesn't. At all. We're not talking about the races as a whole, we're talking about heroes, about individuals. And an individual human or forsaken or draenei or pandaren can achieve the same level of technology expertise as the expert gnomish and goblin engineers, maybe even surpass them.

Okay, well et me know when one of these "prodigies" pop up. Until then, you've got nothing to hang this argument on.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Sorry, but your argument literally makes no sense. *MY* argument is that since the other WoW races' tech level is far below that of Gnomes and Goblins, they aren't capable of creating mechs to pilot.

Goblin and Gnome technology isnt some pinnacle holy grail of tech. Both are riddled with problems and malfunction all the time.

What you just wrote above is the very proof that you don't know what 'proof of concept' really means. Here's how it works: a) we have engineers from other races; b) every now and then, prodigies from all races emerge (the so-called heroes, i.e., the player characters); c) engineers can build and pilot mechs. Putting together 'a', 'b' and 'c', and we have the proof of concept that a non-goblin, non-gnome race can be a tech class.

No, it doesn't. At all. We're not talking about the races as a whole, we're talking about heroes, about individuals. And an individual human or forsaken or draenei or pandaren can achieve the same level of technology expertise as the expert gnomish and goblin engineers, maybe even surpass them.

Not to mention the average race doesn't need a mech. Gnomes and Goblins each would get curbstomped in the average battle with other races. The Mech just levels their playing field a bit more. So while its easily possible, it explains why it isnt common

[Teriz]

Goblin and Gnome technology isnt some pinnacle holy grail of tech. Both are riddled with problems and malfunction all the time.

That doesn't change the fact that its more advanced than the tech of other races.

Not to mention the average race doesn't need a mech. Gnomes and Goblins each would get curbstomped in the average battle with other races. The Mech just levels their playing field a bit more. So while its easily possible, it explains why it isnt common

There's a difference between uncommon and non-existent. I would also argue that it isn't "easily possible" for non-tech races to build mechs.

[Friendlyimmolation]

That doesn't change the fact that its more advanced than the tech of other races.

Draenei and Blood elves both say hello.

There's a difference between uncommon and non-existent. I would also argue that it isn't "easily possible" for non-tech races to build mechs.

Based off of what? Nothing ever in lore shows that Gnomes and Goblins are the only ones who can take and re purpose tech. WoD is a giant hand waving in the face of that argument.

[Ielenia]

Sorry, but your argument literally makes no sense. *MY* argument is that since the other WoW races' tech level is far below that of Gnomes and Goblins, they aren't capable of creating mechs to pilot.

And again. That argument doesn't hold any water at all, for two reasons: first, because we're talking about heroes, about individuals; and second, because, by your own logic, prior to the implementation of gnome mages and warlocks, there was absolutely nothing in the Warcraft lore about gnomes being able to be spellcasters. Ergo, (again, by your logic) gnome spellcasters shouldn't exist at all.

Well just for example, Humans live alongside technology, that doesn't mean that they embrace it. Humans can use it, but they can't create any of it. Sort of like how Warmachine can pilot an Iron Man suit, but he isn't Tony Stark, who constantly builds and enhances new Iron Man suits.

Except both Tony Stark and James Rhodes are both human. Why do you insist that humans (or any other race, for that matter) can't produce a "Tony Stark" every once in a while?

There's that argument again; What you wrote only works if all engineers in the game are equal,

That's stupid, and completely misses the point. I never, ever claimed, or even implied, that all engineers in the game are equal. Yes, a great majority of engineers in the game are gnomes or goblins, because their culture nurtures those who work with technology. But that does not mean that some members of other races can't be engineers and even compete with goblins and gnomes.

Okay, well et me know when one of these "prodigies" pop up. Until then, you've got nothing to hang this argument on.

I really have to wonder if you're being willfully dense, here. You can't possibly can't understand what I'm talking about here. Are you actually arguing that the other races are somehow mentally incapable of building and riding a mech of their own? Are you actually arguing that, even if an orc, or human, or forsaken, or pandaren dedicate themselves to the craft, and are gifted, they would never reach the level of the average gnome/goblin engineer?

[Teriz]

Draenei and Blood elves both say hello.

Mechanical tech, not magi-tech. Sorry, should have clarified.

Based off of what? Nothing ever in lore shows that Gnomes and Goblins are the only ones who can take and re purpose tech. WoD is a giant hand waving in the face of that argument.

Uh, the Iron Horde was using Goblin tech via the Blackfuse Company. There was plenty of Goblin bosses in WoD. How could you miss them?

[Friendlyimmolation]

Uh, the Iron Horde was using Goblin tech via the Blackfuse Company.

Which the orcs took and made their own. Goblins weren't running blackrock.

[Teriz]

And again. That argument doesn't hold any water at all, for two reasons: first, because we're talking about heroes, about individuals; and second, because, by your own logic, prior to the implementation of gnome mages and warlocks, there was absolutely nothing in the Warcraft lore about gnomes being able to be spellcasters. Ergo, (again, by your logic) gnome spellcasters shouldn't exist at all.

Yeah, but there's no heroes or individuals to point to to support the notion that there's non-Goblins/Gnomes building pilotable mechs. And again, that crazy gnome argument isn't in the same vein as the argument I'm making. I'm talking about something not existing within the game world. You're talking about something not existing before the game itself existed.

Except both Tony Stark and James Rhodes are both human. Why do you insist that humans (or any other race, for that matter) can't produce a "Tony Stark" every once in a while?

I'm simply pointing out that you can co-exist and even pilot advanced technology, that doesn't mean you can create, understand, or enhance that technology.

That's stupid, and completely misses the point. I never, ever claimed, or even implied, that all engineers in the game are equal. Yes, a great majority of engineers in the game are gnomes or goblins, because their culture nurtures those who work with technology. But that does not mean that some members of other races can't be engineers and even compete with goblins and gnomes.

In order for an engineer to be able to create a mech that they can pilot, they would have to be on the same engineering level as Gnomes and Goblins because they are the only races that have been capable of doing it. It's simple. Refer back to the Orc Engineer who can only build Catapults and simple machines; You can't go from that level of technology to suddenly building laser beams and rocket thrusters. That's called jumping the shark.

I really have to wonder if you're being willfully dense, here. You can't possibly can't understand what I'm talking about here. Are you actually arguing that the other races are somehow mentally incapable of building and riding a mech of their own?

Yes, they're mentally incapable. They lack the scientific and engineering knowledge to do what Gnomes and Goblins can do. That's why Gnome and Goblin cities look like modern urban centers, while the humans are living in castles and medieval cottages, and the Orcs are living in huts made of animal skins.

Are you actually arguing that, even if an orc, or human, or forsaken, or pandaren dedicate themselves to the craft, and are gifted, they would never reach the level of the average gnome/goblin engineer?

Blizzard could always create a character who be as mechanically brilliant as a Gnome or a Goblin. Like I said, let me know when they do it. As of right now, that character doesn't exist in the game.

- - - Updated - - -

Which the orcs took and made their own. Goblins weren't running blackrock.

The Goblins didn't take over the Iron Horde, they worked for it, just like they worked for Garrosh in MoP. It was a symbiotic relationship. So yeah, Blackhand still ran Blackrock, but he was aided by Goblin technology.

[Friendlyimmolation]

The Goblins didn't take over the Iron Horde, they worked for it, just like they worked for Garrosh in MoP. It was a symbiotic relationship. So yeah, Blackhand still ran Blackrock, but he was aided by Goblin weaponry.

Weaponry that the orcs built. Orcs are shown capable of recreating the tech perfectly. Thats all the proof you really need if orcs can recreate the tech. The other races aren't physically incapable of creating said technology, they just don't need to, because they are taller than 2 feet and can physically fight.

[Teriz]

Weaponry that the orcs built. Orcs are shown capable of recreating the tech perfectly. Thats all the proof you really need if orcs can recreate the tech. The other races aren't physically incapable of creating said technology, they just don't need to.

The orcs built it under the direction of the Blackfuse company. Its well stated in the lore that the Blackfuse company supplied the technology for the Iron Horde.

[Friendlyimmolation]

The orcs built it under the direction of the Blackfuse company. Its well stated in the lore that the Blackfuse company supplied the technology for the Iron Horde.

Once again, The orcs proved to be able, once they had the plans to build everything without supervision. Which again gets rid of the whole "other races aren't tech savy or whatever" you might as well argue that if you aren't a elf you can't do magic.

[Ielenia]

Yeah, but there's no heroes or individuals to point to to support the notion that there's non-Goblins/Gnomes building pilotable mechs

It doesn't work that way. Engineers of other races exist, and engineers can build mechs. Those two facts are more than enough to support the notion that, in the supposed implementation of a tech class, it doesn't have to be restricted to just gnomes and goblins. If you want to claim something can't happen, you have to prove it can't happen. Simply saying "I don't see any other race building and piloting a mech" is not evidence at all. Just because you can't see something, doesn't said something doesn't exist.

I'm simply pointing out that you can co-exist and even pilot advanced technology, that doesn't mean you can create, understand, or enhance that technology.

On that exact same token: it doesn't mean you can't, either.

In order for an engineer to be able to create a mech that they can pilot, they would have to be on the same engineering level as Gnomes and Goblins because they are the only races that have been capable of doing it.

I have yet to see you prove this claim that gnomes and goblins are the only races capable of building mechs.

Yes, they're mentally incapable.

And here is where you lose the argument, where you throw the towel. Seriously, you're arguing that all the races, save gnomes and goblins, are somehow mentally incapable to be intelligent and smart. Despite the fact, of course there is a whole city of mages, and very accomplished ones, like Khadgar, who goes directly against your claim. And let me preempt you before you say that magic and technology aren't the same: yes, they aren't, but magic is not easy at all to learn, let alone master.

Blizzard could always create a character who be as mechanically brilliant as a Gnome or a Goblin. Like I said, let me know when they do it. As of right now, that character doesn't exist in the game.

You have not answered the question.

[Teriz]

Once again, The orcs proved to be able, once they had the plans to build everything without supervision. Which again gets rid of the whole "other races aren't tech savy or whatever" you might as well argue that if you aren't a elf you can't do magic.

Well if you have the plans, how are you building it yourself? You have schematics and blue prints, and more than likely a Goblin engineer there to help you with the process. Orcs being hand held by goblins doesn't make them tech-savvy.

Goblins and Gnomes on the other hand actually invent technology. Mekkatorque invented the Mechanostrider, Repair bot, and the Mekkatorque suit. Blackfuse invented various siege instruments like the Iron Juggernaut and the Iron Star and repurposed Titan tech. That's what is considered tech savvy.

- - - Updated - - -

It doesn't work that way. Engineers of other races exist, and engineers can build mechs. Those two facts are more than enough to support the notion that, in the supposed implementation of a tech class, it doesn't have to be restricted to just gnomes and goblins. If you want to claim something can't happen, you have to prove it can't happen. Simply saying "I don't see any other race building and piloting a mech" is not evidence at all. Just because you can't see something, doesn't said something doesn't exist.

There's that "all engineers are equal" argument again....

On that exact same token: it doesn't mean you can't, either.

In the case of WoW's races, it does mean you can't, because none of them have.

I have yet to see you prove this claim that gnomes and goblins are the only races capable of building mechs.

Uh, simple, find a pilotable mech not either built or designed by Goblins or Gnomes.

And here is where you lose the argument, where you throw the towel. Seriously, you're arguing that all the races, save gnomes and goblins, are somehow mentally incapable to be intelligent and smart. Despite the fact, of course there is a whole city of mages, and very accomplished ones, like Khadgar, who goes directly against your claim. And let me preempt you before you say that magic and technology aren't the same: yes, they aren't, but magic is not easy at all to learn, let alone master.

Well there's different types of intelligence, even in the real world. Just because Humans and other races lack the technological intelligence of Gnomes and Goblins doesn't mean they're dribbling idiots who can't walk and chew gum at the same time. It also doesn't mean that they don't have a high level of the intelligence in other areas, such as magic.

You have not answered the question.

Yeah I did. You just didn't like the answer.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Well if you have the plans, how are you building it yourself? You have schematics and blue prints, and more than likely a Goblin engineer there to help you with the process. Orcs being hand held by goblins doesn't make them tech-savvy.

since you love this type of argument. Prove that the orcs were incabale of doing this by themselves, when blackrock foundry outright shows everything being done by orcs. If Alternate Draenor orcs can learn Blackfuse tech in under a year and mass produce it, there is no way in hell that Gnomes and Goblins are the only races that could build a mech.

There's that "all engineers are equal" argument again....

putting a little smiley face doesnt make your argument any less flimsy. Nothing shows that any other race is incapbale of learning tech to the extent of goblins or gnomes.

In the case of WoW's races, it does mean you can't, because none of them have.

Once again, the entirety of WoD.

Well there's different types of intelligence, even in the real world. Just because Humans and other races lack the technological intelligence of Gnomes and Goblins doesn't mean they're dribbling idiots who can't walk and chew gum at the same time. It also doesn't mean that they don't have a high level of the intelligence in other areas, such as magic.

News flash, the reason Goblins and Gnomes have so much tech, is because they are weak compared to other races physically, they are forced to work on tech to keep up with the other races. Mass producing orc/human sized mechs wouldn't be pratical because they are easily defeated anyways. There has never been a single thing showing GNomes/Goblins hold a monopoly on this.

[Ielenia]

There's that "all engineers are equal" argument again....

Could you please STOP misrepresenting other people's arguments? I never said that all engineers are equal. I simply said that, as a rule of thumb, they can build mechs. Or are you implying that a non-goblin, non-gnome engineer is so mentally retarded, that even with a blueprint, he'd be unable to build a mech?

In the case of WoW's races, it does mean you can't, because none of them have.

Do you really can't understand the concept of 'ABSENCE OF EVIDENCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE'!? But here's an example that shoots your "argument" dead: monks. There were no monks around Warcraft before Mists of Pandaria (other than some Draenei back in Outland, and Chen Stormstout hasn't been "upgraded" to monk status yet). So, by your logic, humans, dwarves, gnomes, night elves, blood elves, orcs, tauren, forsaken and trolls could not be monks. Again, by your logic, they were too physically challenged AND mentally retarded to train as monks.

Right?

Yet that is not what happened, is it?

Uh, simple, find a pilotable mech not either built or designed by Goblins or Gnomes.

Could stop acting like an idiot? It's your duty to present proof of your case. "I don't see any other race building mechs" is not evidence. Seriously, that's childishly immature levels of argumentation that you're presenting, man.

Just because Humans and other races lack the technological intelligence of Gnomes and Goblins

I am still waiting for you to give any definitive proof of this claim you love to repeat like a broken disc.

Yeah I did. You just didn't like the answer.

You didn't. You tried to evade the question. I asked what you think happens within the lore, not what Blizzard could do. I'll repeat it:

Are you actually arguing that, even if an orc, or human, or forsaken, or pandaren dedicate themselves to the craft, and are gifted, they would never reach the level of the average gnome/goblin engineer?

Are you really arguing that that is what is currently going on within the Warcraft lore?

(PS: it says a lot about the intelligence of a race when the supposedly most intelligent member of your race could actually be convinced that releasing lethal gas all over an entire, populated city is a good idea.)

[-Joker-]

Some people's panties are really in a twist about the idea of tinkers. I wonder if they will unsub the day Blizz adds them.

[Teriz]

Could you please STOP misrepresenting other people's arguments? I never said that all engineers are equal. I simply said that, as a rule of thumb, they can build mechs. Or are you implying that a non-goblin, non-gnome engineer is so mentally retarded, that even with a blueprint, he'd be unable to build a mech?

Uh, its not a "rule of thumb" because all engineers from every race aren't equal. Again, an Orc engineer building a catapult doesn't have the technological know-how to build a transformable mech. I also didn't say they couldn't do it without a blueprint, but they're not going to build a mech that's unique to their race, they're going to build a gnomish or goblin mech. That demonstrates less technical know-how than someone like Mekkatorque or Blackfuse who can invent unique mechs.

Do you really can't understand the concept of 'ABSENCE OF EVIDENCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE'!? But here's an example that shoots your "argument" dead: monks. There were no monks around Warcraft before Mists of Pandaria (other than some Draenei back in Outland, and Chen Stormstout hasn't been "upgraded" to monk status yet). So, by your logic, humans, dwarves, gnomes, night elves, blood elves, orcs, tauren, forsaken and trolls could not be monks. Again, by your logic, they were too physically challenged AND mentally retarded to train as monks.

Forsaken Monk from vanilla
Dranei Monk from TBC
Blood Elf Monk from TBC
Human monk from WotLk

That sort of proved that a wide variety of races could be monks.

Right?

Yet that is not what happened, is it?

LoL! No.

Could stop acting like an idiot? It's your duty to present proof of your case. "I don't see any other race building mechs" is not evidence. Seriously, that's childishly immature levels of argumentation that you're presenting, man.

Uh, the lack of any other races building mechs IS evidence.

I am still waiting for you to give any definitive proof of this claim you love to repeat like a broken disc.

Human City:


Goblin City:

You didn't. You tried to evade the question. I asked what you think happens within the lore, not what Blizzard could do. I'll repeat it:

Are you really arguing that that is what is currently going on within the Warcraft lore?

Uh no, I'm arguing that Blizzard controls the lore, and they've made it pretty clear that Gnomes and Goblins have a monopoly on advanced mechanical technology. They've made that pretty clear for almost 13 years, and I have yet to see any conclusive signs that any of that is changing. Could they change it? Sure. However, Blizzard typically shows hints and signs before they drop a significant lore change.

(PS: it says a lot about the intelligence of a race when the supposedly most intelligent member of your race could actually be convinced that releasing lethal gas all over an entire, populated city is a good idea.)

Okay.

[Kiradyn]

Yeah... Which is exactly what I'm saying. I'm not sure why you're posting this as a correction, when it's what I've said from the very beginning.

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, and you're agreeing with me - in which case, I apologise.

Maybe I misread your post? I thought you were saying that the game already caters to the fantasy via the engineering profession. I'm just saying that (more than likely) the reason this class keeps getting brought up is because people aren't getting the fantasy from the profession.