i dont get the opposition to parsing in FFXIV

[MrTharne]

The whole group needs to know the group failed to beat a check by 100 dps.
The whole group does not need to know Player A did 20 less dps than Player B.

This is a convenient scenario.

But when the group failed to beat a check by 500 dps and Player A (while being at the most of its capabilities damage wise) is doing double/triple/etc the dps of Player B or if someone (wink wink you know who I'm talking about) is at 0 dps, you need to know who isn't pulling their weight because demanding Player A to provide even more dps when Player B or the H-bot are lacking is just not right.

[Nurvus]

But when the group failed to beat a check by 500 dps and Player A (while being at the most of its capabilities damage wise) is doing double/triple/etc the dps of Player B or if someone (wink wink you know who I'm talking about) is at 0 dps, you need to know who isn't pulling their weight because demanding Player A to provide even more dps when Player B or the H-bot are lacking is just not right.

You don't need exact numbers to know that.

The Rating I'm suggesting is enough for all of that.
That dude with 0 dps would be at F- rating or something :P It'd be a dead giveaway.

[Melsiren]

The opposition isn't to parsing per se (I've run one for at least a year now). The opposition is to how people can choose to utilize such tools and the information they provide.

A crowbar can be used for a variety of things; one such thing is beating someone senseless (if not lifeless). The problem doesn't lie with the tool.

Agreed, hence why I feel Square's current stance on the subject is good.

People who use the tool for it's purpose have the means to download ACT, and you will not be banned for just running ACT.

As people have already stressed, you do not need ACT to figure out where the damage problem is. ACT only makes it easier to figure out what the problem is.

[Dwill]

You don't need exact numbers to know that.

The Rating I'm suggesting is enough for all of that.
That dude with 0 dps would be at F- rating or something :P It'd be a dead giveaway.

A boss doesn't have rank S amount of HP, it has a numerical value so if a boss requires 10000 rDPS to bring down and your group only does 8800 rDPS, then you need to know where/how to get more. A ranking would also need to be tuned on a per encounter basis due to various mechanic affecting different class differently therefore be at the whim of a system we might never get all the information on how it rank you either.

Agreed, hence why I feel Square's current stance on the subject is good.

People who use the tool for it's purpose have the means to download ACT, and you will not be banned for just running ACT.

As people have already stressed, you do not need ACT to figure out where the damage problem is. ACT only makes it easier to figure out what the problem is.

You have it the other way around.You don't need ACT to know you hit enrage but you need ACT to know how to much more damage whether it's by optimizing your rotation, letting someone handle a certain mechanic, banking Trick Attack for a later part of the encounter,etc

[Manabomb]

This is a convenient scenario.

But when the group failed to beat a check by 500 dps and Player A (while being at the most of its capabilities damage wise) is doing double/triple/etc the dps of Player B or if someone (wink wink you know who I'm talking about) is at 0 dps, you need to know who isn't pulling their weight because demanding Player A to provide even more dps when Player B or the H-bot are lacking is just not right.

There is almost 0 content where this is even applicable aside from cutting edge content you'd be doing with a static raid group anyway. I'm unsure why people like you (or the OP for that matter) have such a sick fixation on random players damage in content that is pretty damn casual. This idea that the player owes the group his/her optimal DPS or that the damage dealer must "fight for the right to dps" (lmao capitalism in video games) falls flat on its ass in content where it does not matter (pretty much anything but Savage/EX primals) or situations where you cannot control what dps player you get (random queues).

And no, Dun Scaith does not count. It's pretty much the LFR of this game without the condescending title and actually meaningful rewards (relatively speaking.)

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A boss doesn't have rank S amount of HP, it has a numerical value so if a boss requires 10000 rDPS to bring down and your group only does 8800 rDPS, then you need to know where/how to get more. A ranking would also need to be tuned on a per encounter basis due to various mechanic affecting different class differently therefore be at the whim of a system we might never get all the information on how it rank you either.




You have it the other way around.You don't need ACT to know you hit enrage but you need ACT to know how to much more damage whether it's by optimizing your rotation, letting someone handle a certain mechanic, banking Trick Attack for a later part of the encounter,etc

I'm assuming they also dislike parsing for that reason there. Square has been staunchly against enabling the "min/max" habit/addiction that most MMO players seem to form when it comes to dealing damage relative to boss HP.

And again, there is only a small fraction of content where this is even applicable. I doubt most skilled players even require parsing to actively understand when and where damage buffs, debuffs and burst should be applied. That's raider 101 frankly.

[MrTharne]

There is almost 0 content where this is even applicable aside from cutting edge content you'd be doing with a static raid group anyway. I'm unsure why people like you (or the OP for that matter) have such a sick fixation on random players damage in content that is pretty damn casual. This idea that the player owes the group his/her optimal DPS or that the damage dealer must "fight for the right to dps" (lmao capitalism in video games) falls flat on its ass in content where it does not matter (pretty much anything but Savage/EX primals) or situations where you cannot control what dps player you get (random queues).

And no, Dun Scaith does not count. It's pretty much the LFR of this game without the condescending title and actually meaningful rewards (relatively speaking.)

It's even more important with random players. Since there will be less (most of the time inexistant even) communication between the players, I need to play at the utmost of my capabilities to insure that I'm not a dead weight to the group and will make the run as smooth, fast and enjoyable as possible for everyone, like a contract of sort.

Isn't it common decency, good manners, etiquette, respect or what have you, to do your best when paired with other people ? When I play with friends I can goof around because I know them and we can do wth we want if we're cool with that but when I play with randoms I won't because I don't know them and I'll be damn sure to make the group succeed however I can.

[Stormspark]

There is almost 0 content where this is even applicable aside from cutting edge content you'd be doing with a static raid group anyway. I'm unsure why people like you (or the OP for that matter) have such a sick fixation on random players damage in content that is pretty damn casual. This idea that the player owes the group his/her optimal DPS or that the damage dealer must "fight for the right to dps" (lmao capitalism in video games) falls flat on its ass in content where it does not matter (pretty much anything but Savage/EX primals) or situations where you cannot control what dps player you get (random queues).

And no, Dun Scaith does not count. It's pretty much the LFR of this game without the condescending title and actually meaningful rewards (relatively speaking.)

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I'm assuming they also dislike parsing for that reason there. Square has been staunchly against enabling the "min/max" habit/addiction that most MMO players seem to form when it comes to dealing damage relative to boss HP.

And again, there is only a small fraction of content where this is even applicable. I doubt most skilled players even require parsing to actively understand when and where damage buffs, debuffs and burst should be applied. That's raider 101 frankly.

I fully support this decision as well. You only have to look to WOW to see what happens when "gearscore" and "dps" take over. The community becomes a cesspool. Specs that are 1% below others are considered "nonviable" and people are trolled for using them. Guilds start dictating what specs people play, what talents they pick. People only look at "dps" on damage meters (they don't consider things like total damage done, or if you're doing a nonstandard role like kiting something). People are screamed at and kicked if they are 5% below something else. Other people will do stupid stuff that's not part of doing the encounter correctly just to pad meters. Incredibly toxic behavior that doesn't have any place in this game. It ruined the WOW community. It doesn't need to ruin this one too.

[Super Kami Dende]

I generally find those most opposed to parsing are people that would be called out because of it.

[Stormspark]

I generally find those most opposed to parsing are people that would be called out because of it.

The only time it's relevant is in high end content, which you aren't going to be doing in a PUG anyway. In casual content, it doesn't matter unless someone is literally AFK and not doing anything, and that's easy enough to tell without parsing.

[Veluren]

I generally find those most opposed to parsing are people that would be called out because of it.

To put that on the other side of the coin, the ones most in support of it tend to be the ones most likely to result in personal attacks/harassment and unneeded elitism for the content they're doing

There's mediated people on both sides of the argument, but saying most opposition or support is on the far end of the extreme doesn't get us anywhere but a circular arguement

[Wrecktangle]

I fully support this decision as well. You only have to look to WOW to see what happens when "gearscore" and "dps" take over. The community becomes a cesspool. Specs that are 1% below others are considered "nonviable" and people are trolled for using them. Guilds start dictating what specs people play, what talents they pick. People only look at "dps" on damage meters (they don't consider things like total damage done, or if you're doing a nonstandard role like kiting something). People are screamed at and kicked if they are 5% below something else. Other people will do stupid stuff that's not part of doing the encounter correctly just to pad meters. Incredibly toxic behavior that doesn't have any place in this game. It ruined the WOW community. It doesn't need to ruin this one too.

My spec was over 10% lower at some points, yes I was brought to raids that cleared top 20 US. So you're wrong there. My guild never once told me to reroll (I only play one class and one spec at that). I was never once told what talents to pick over a 10+ year raiding career or what class/spec to play.

99% of players know how to a read a meter to determine if padding was done. For instance I was dead last on DPS in Blast Furnance Mythic, but my guild didn't harass me or bitch, because they knew that I was doing my role. My role was to sync wings with bursting down elementalists. Thus I had maximum damage done to the most important adds of the fight, that was my role. On Blackhand I had to kite or do balconies, thus my DPS was lower. Again, no shit was given there.

This experience is over a 10 year raiding career, this isn't isolated or a one off.

Considering my anecdotal experience completely refutes every single aspect of your post I'm inclined to believe that you have a reason for wanting to hide your contributions to the run. Whatever reason that may be I won't speculate to, but it's a valid observation nonetheless. I'm not saying WoW's community is less toxic or better, I'm merely saying my experiences were very good all the time. As I suspect common denominator likely applies here.

[munkeyinorbit]

Because it's a dick move and creates a toxic atmosphere with people parsing logs constantly in chat to belitte other people, something wow suffers greatly from. You don't wanna deal with shit dps, you go with your guild

sounds like you like to get carried by OP. That is the only sensible reason. It is the bads who don't want parsing because it will shine a light on how terrible they are.

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To put that on the other side of the coin, the ones most in support of it tend to be the ones most likely to result in personal attacks/harassment and unneeded elitism for the content they're doing

There's mediated people on both sides of the argument, but saying most opposition or support is on the far end of the extreme doesn't get us anywhere but a circular arguement

Why should I carry other people when they are terrible at the game. It isn't my job to babysit people because they dont know how to press buttons in the right order.

[Veluren]

sounds like you like to get carried by OP. That is the only sensible reason. It is the bads who don't want parsing because it will shine a light on how terrible they are.

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Why should I carry other people when they are terrible at the game. It isn't my job to babysit people because they dont know how to press buttons in the right order.

Case in point

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To be a little bit less sarcastic, let me actually give context.

Most of the people I see in support of parsers and actively vocal about it are people who tend to be mean, crude, bitter, and just unpleasant to play with because DPS is the be-all end all, mechanics don't matter as long as you don't outright die, as long as you're pulling off satisfactory number.

I agree it's inexcusable to just be AFKing or consciously slowing the group down, but most people I see who get ugly about DPS numbers with parsers are ignorant to the thought of "don't attribute to malice what could instead be ignorance."

Let me give a recent (As in, two hours ago) example, I was doing Sohm Al HM, nearer to the end of the dungeon, I start hearing the teltale sound of Iron Jaws... and Iron Jaws... and Iron Jaws, the BRD was spamming it, despite having no DoTs up. I sat her down, politely, and pointed out her full rotation does much more damage, and she was open to it, I didn't need a parser to see she was doing bad, in fact her low DPS probably made every pull take nearly three times as long, but after spending a few seconds talking to her, it was very clear she didn't know what she was doing was wrong because nobody bothered to teach her or correct her before me.

After getting out of the dungeon, I engaged in conversation, set her straight, gave her a rotation and a ton of information, and she was thankful and happy that I could help her do better.

A lot of times, in games with Parsers, and this isn't just WoW, I saw it with people parsing in other games, if you're doing low DPS, you're an irredeemable casual who deserves to be mistreated, harassed, and removed from the group, because obviously you're not new, or incorrect, you're always someone who knows better doing something out of malice, always.

That's the toxicity I feel like Square is avoiding, be gentle and friendly when pointing out flaws, a lot of the emphasis on combos and buffs means that if you watch a party member fight, and they're doing something wrong, you can SEE it plain as day, without a parser, and that also gives you the opportunity to point out "Hey you're missing X ability" or "You're letting X important buff/debuff drop", which not only is good because it gives them a reference, but it's phrased a lot nicer than "Hey you're doing X less DPS than X person"

People aren't willing to give others a chance, and while obviously parsers aren't ENTIRELY to blame, and people in support of them aren't ALL like that, I feel there's a definite correlation.

And, to give a final thought to the person I quoted. Yes, you should, you should babysit new DPS, because if you babysit them and help them get better, they most of the time WILL get better, you've just helped someone who was a bit unsure get more sure of their ability to play and more confident in pulling off their combos, cooldowns, and rotations. It may be extra work, but you'll have left not only having created another competent player, but you'll have done it in a friendly way and made the community as a whole that much better, because they'll pay it forward for the next new DPS that has no idea what they're doing

[Aruhen]

My spec was over 10% lower at some points, yes I was brought to raids that cleared top 20 US. So you're wrong there. My guild never once told me to reroll (I only play one class and one spec at that). I was never once told what talents to pick over a 10+ year raiding career or what class/spec to play.

99% of players know how to a read a meter to determine if padding was done. For instance I was dead last on DPS in Blast Furnance Mythic, but my guild didn't harass me or bitch, because they knew that I was doing my role. My role was to sync wings with bursting down elementalists. Thus I had maximum damage done to the most important adds of the fight, that was my role. On Blackhand I had to kite or do balconies, thus my DPS was lower. Again, no shit was given there.

This experience is over a 10 year raiding career, this isn't isolated or a one off.

Considering my anecdotal experience completely refutes every single aspect of your post I'm inclined to believe that you have a reason for wanting to hide your contributions to the run. Whatever reason that may be I won't speculate to, but it's a valid observation nonetheless. I'm not saying WoW's community is less toxic or better, I'm merely saying my experiences were very good all the time. As I suspect common denominator likely applies here.

See you're issue is that you seem to play mostly with competent players which the average player isn't. I remember one specific example way back in Bastion of Twilight. It was a pug run for my alt hunter. We were on Cho'Gal and I was the only person in the group that could handle the puddle adds properly. I decided to change one talent so my traps would root the adds in place. Of course we proceeded to wipe because people were standing in puddles and transforming among other things. What happened was two of the people in the group saw me have that talent (instead of another talent that slightly increased my DPS) and proceeded to lose their shit and blame me for the wipe. I was the only one in the group doing mechanics properly and even though I was the only one killing adds (easy as fuck as a hunter) I was still highest on DPS by a huge margin.

Similar stuff to what I mentioned above is what I see happen all the time in groups. People pick on a person because they see them doing something that isn't the norm. That or they see them lower on the DPS meter and automatically assume (the average player doesn't know how to read meters and you'd be surprised how many use overall data) it's their fault without looking at the big picture. People praise a Fire Mage doing a crap ton of dps and mention how they're so amazing even though the fight lasted a minute so it's not a proper indication of anything.

[Deleted]

I absolutely love the meters in wow when in pug groups. For me it does two things, shows who is being just lazy and getting a free ride. From my experience a lot of people just don't want to improve and "perform" which means they get carried by the try hards which is frustrating for them. Although they tend to be more vocal than their counterparts as they are as already said, lazy.

Second it's also a measure to see how good I am doing and if I need to improve etc.

[Reforge]

Competition breeds improvement need to look at it under different light, not just under the "toxic" spectrum.

[Katchii]

Competition breeds improvement need to look at it under different light, not just under the "toxic" spectrum.

Can't disagree with this, however the groups that really NEED to improve to complete the content they are attempting will use these tools specifically for improvement. Random groups that can and will complete the content without much effort don't need these tools and the "unwashed masses" that have access to these tools when in that kind of content don't really bring anything of value to the group.

Basically, the population that really needs a tool like this already has a tool available and is already using it (namely ACT) to do what they want and the Devs allow it. I'm not really seeing a gap here that needs to be filled.

[Dwill]

I'm assuming they also dislike parsing for that reason there. Square has been staunchly against enabling the "min/max" habit/addiction that most MMO players seem to form when it comes to dealing damage relative to boss HP.

And again, there is only a small fraction of content where this is even applicable. I doubt most skilled players even require parsing to actively understand when and where damage buffs, debuffs and burst should be applied. That's raider 101 frankly.

The fact that you're even inferring that min/max can be an addiction is so utterly ridiculous. There's absolutely nothing wrong with anyone that want to perform as best as they can and quite frankly, there were situations where it was absolutely needed (Alexander: Midas) or you would just not progress.

And while yes that quite a bit of information can be known without a parser, having more information can only be helpful during progression.

[Nikkaszal]

Case in point

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To be a little bit less sarcastic, let me actually give context.

Most of the people I see in support of parsers and actively vocal about it are people who tend to be mean, crude, bitter, and just unpleasant to play with because DPS is the be-all end all, mechanics don't matter as long as you don't outright die, as long as you're pulling off satisfactory number.

I agree it's inexcusable to just be AFKing or consciously slowing the group down, but most people I see who get ugly about DPS numbers with parsers are ignorant to the thought of "don't attribute to malice what could instead be ignorance."

Let me give a recent (As in, two hours ago) example, I was doing Sohm Al HM, nearer to the end of the dungeon, I start hearing the teltale sound of Iron Jaws... and Iron Jaws... and Iron Jaws, the BRD was spamming it, despite having no DoTs up. I sat her down, politely, and pointed out her full rotation does much more damage, and she was open to it, I didn't need a parser to see she was doing bad, in fact her low DPS probably made every pull take nearly three times as long, but after spending a few seconds talking to her, it was very clear she didn't know what she was doing was wrong because nobody bothered to teach her or correct her before me.

After getting out of the dungeon, I engaged in conversation, set her straight, gave her a rotation and a ton of information, and she was thankful and happy that I could help her do better.

A lot of times, in games with Parsers, and this isn't just WoW, I saw it with people parsing in other games, if you're doing low DPS, you're an irredeemable casual who deserves to be mistreated, harassed, and removed from the group, because obviously you're not new, or incorrect, you're always someone who knows better doing something out of malice, always.

That's the toxicity I feel like Square is avoiding, be gentle and friendly when pointing out flaws, a lot of the emphasis on combos and buffs means that if you watch a party member fight, and they're doing something wrong, you can SEE it plain as day, without a parser, and that also gives you the opportunity to point out "Hey you're missing X ability" or "You're letting X important buff/debuff drop", which not only is good because it gives them a reference, but it's phrased a lot nicer than "Hey you're doing X less DPS than X person"

People aren't willing to give others a chance, and while obviously parsers aren't ENTIRELY to blame, and people in support of them aren't ALL like that, I feel there's a definite correlation.

And, to give a final thought to the person I quoted. Yes, you should, you should babysit new DPS, because if you babysit them and help them get better, they most of the time WILL get better, you've just helped someone who was a bit unsure get more sure of their ability to play and more confident in pulling off their combos, cooldowns, and rotations. It may be extra work, but you'll have left not only having created another competent player, but you'll have done it in a friendly way and made the community as a whole that much better, because they'll pay it forward for the next new DPS that has no idea what they're doing

It took you to near of the end of the dungeon to work that out. Had you been using a tool like Recount or Skada, you would have seen the problem immediately, been able to do your charitable work at the start and the run wouldn't have taken triple its average length.

[threads]

Can't disagree with this, however the groups that really NEED to improve to complete the content they are attempting will use these tools specifically for improvement. Random groups that can and will complete the content without much effort don't need these tools and the "unwashed masses" that have access to these tools when in that kind of content don't really bring anything of value to the group.

Basically, the population that really needs a tool like this already has a tool available and is already using it (namely ACT) to do what they want and the Devs allow it. I'm not really seeing a gap here that needs to be filled.

the problem is a lot of people play on console and can't use ACT.