Europe was the birthplace of mankind, not Africa, scientists find

[Rukh]

Doesn't surprise me.

When Obama was the president, all these "scientists" claimed Africa is the best.

Now Trump is the president, all these "scientists" change their minds.
So they can get more funding.

What are you even talking about. Nobody is claiming Africa as the best or the worst. People are claiming the first of our species existed in Africa and spread through the world.

[dieudal]

No, its the Garden of Eden, duh!

[mvaliz]

The thread of this title should more accurately start with the words "New theory:"

It tries to speak and imply in absolutes, not theoretical...

[Deleted]

Interesting. But i'm not sure what this changes "alot" to really make a difference. It is natural to me that some members of a species migrated to nearby places. Maybe these didn't make it but got preserved. I don't think it changes much... unless you mean the BS religious people come up with and called "the missing link". That was BS to begin with cause religion is supported by ignorance.

- - - Updated - - -

The thread of this title should more accurately start with the words "New theory:"

It tries to speak and imply in absolutes, not theoretical...

You do know that a theory in science is an accurate explanation of events supported by evidence? Just checking.

If you want to discredit, you need to call it something else.

[Khaza-R]

I wouldn't go as far as saying you are dense, but it was strange logic:

Your argument:
1. Birth of humanity requires humanity
2. Humanity includes collective knowledge
3. Collective knowledge is up until yesterday
Therefore (according to you)
4. Birth of humanity was yesterday.

Right and what we actively describe as a human being is not just solely what is genetically a homo sapien. Imagine if you were born completely independent of any human interaction, growing up complete on your own. You would not think in terms of language. In fact your thoughts would be entirely animal like in nature and while intelligent you would posses no higher thought. This is inclusive to what we understand as being human today.

So yes. Me and you can come up with arbitrary points where more complex human thought and collective intelligence took place, became there is no definitive answer. However, in my opinion, the birthplace of civilization is as a good of a point as any.

[schwarzkopf]

Right and what we actively describe as a human being is not just solely what is genetically a homo sapien. Imagine if you were born completely independent of any human interaction, growing up complete on your own. You would not think in terms of language.

If you are homo sapien then you have the functionality of language, not having anyone around to teach you - that's a separate issue.

In essence - if a baby born today were brought up in isolation of all others, by a lion or something - we would still define it has human.

In reverse - we would have to go back A LONG time to a point where a baby born then and brought through a time machine would not function as a human today (except for issues with infections etc - but that applies to us going back 400 years as well).

[Puupi]

So yes. Me and you can come up with arbitrary points where more complex human thought and collective intelligence took place, became there is no definitive answer. However, in my opinion, the birthplace of civilization is as a good of a point as any.

We already know that the traditional theory of "birth of civilization" in Mesopotamia can't be true. The rise of civilizations happened simultaneously all over the world. Also archeological sites such as Göbekli Tepe show there might have been older civilizations elsewhere, too.

[Independent voter]

The Klan and other racist groups will cite this "scientific" article for generations to come.

[Sliske]

So WE wuz kangz, then?

[Aeula]

Expecting lots of outrage over this. Hope they can find even more proof.

[xenogear3]

The Klan and other racist groups will cite this "scientific" article for generations to come.

WW2 is based on Darwinism.
Strong race (German and Japan) should win the war and kill the weak.

Cold War is based on Marxism.
Communist should replace an outdated capitalist.

Finally, Trump (Greece) is your father.

[Luckx]

Cold War is based on Marxism.
Communist should replace an outdated capitalist.

In many western european countries ppl with no job getting money for free from goverment, thats a bit different from both communism and capitalism, in communist countries most ppl was forced to have job to avoid getting jailed.

[Ghostpanther]

We already know that the traditional theory of "birth of civilization" in Mesopotamia can't be true. The rise of civilizations happened simultaneously all over the world. Also archeological sites such as Göbekli Tepe show there might have been older civilizations elsewhere, too.

You mean we already assume we know based on assumptions. Assuming some apes in Africa or Europe are not another ape/chimp species which is now extinct. Then again, we been wrong about that also in the past. :P

[xenogear3]

In many western european countries ppl with no job getting money for free from goverment, thats a bit different from both communism and capitalism, in communist countries most ppl was forced to have job to avoid getting jailed.

Getting free money is NOT communism.

Currently, there is only one true Communist country - North Korea.
People are willing to serve its leader unconditionally, such as Chairman Mao and Stalin.

"Selfless" is the basis of communism.

[Endus]

We already know that the traditional theory of "birth of civilization" in Mesopotamia can't be true. The rise of civilizations happened simultaneously all over the world.

This really isn't true.

First, you'd have to define "civilization", because you're building a largely arbitrary distinction to begin with. Hunter-gatherer groups of 30,000 years ago were clearly prehistoric, and predate what we'd generally call "civilization", but they weren't apes, either. They would have had language, religion, group organization and traditions, cultural dynamics, and we can see a lot of these in prehistoric artworks.

Plus, however you want to establish that distinction, Mesoamerican development emerged thousands of years after that in the Middle East and China. There were plenty of other groups that emerged over the eons in and around all these as well. There was no moment where all of humanity suddenly "woke up" and started civilizations. That some were relatively close in time likely has more to do with prehistoric contact between groups, and the timeline of the warming after the start of the current interglacial period.

If you mean some theory that all of civilization sprang forth from Mesopotamia, pretty much nobody argues that. It's seen as the "cradle of civilization" because A> the Sumerian civilization is the earliest advanced society to emerge, by whatever measure you want to use really, and B> the vast majority of early domesticated crops and such developed in that region (wheat, oats, etc). The primary exceptions from a modern perspective are rice and corn, which were critical to the development in China and the Americas (and getting corn to be a useful crop from its original wild form likely took centuries, and is arguably a big reason why it took American civilizations so long to kick off; just a lack of profitably farmable produce for too much of prehistory).

Also archeological sites such as Göbekli Tepe show there might have been older civilizations elsewhere, too.

This is where the definition of "civilization" is problematic. Gobekli Tempe may have been, as Stonehenge apparently was, a regional focus, possibly shared by a host of different groups who all contributed to its construction and maintenance. While the cooperation in creating those sites is impressive, it doesn't mean the groups building them were anything but hunter-gatherers, or proto-farmers at best.

[Milchshake]

This really isn't true.

First, you'd have to define "civilization", because you're building a largely arbitrary distinction to begin with. Hunter-gatherer groups of 30,000 years ago were clearly prehistoric, and predate what we'd generally call "civilization", but they weren't apes, either. They would have had language, religion, group organization and traditions, cultural dynamics, and we can see a lot of these in prehistoric artworks.

Plus, however you want to establish that distinction, Mesoamerican development emerged thousands of years after that in the Middle East and China. There were plenty of other groups that emerged over the eons in and around all these as well. There was no moment where all of humanity suddenly "woke up" and started civilizations. That some were relatively close in time likely has more to do with prehistoric contact between groups, and the timeline of the warming after the start of the current interglacial period.

If you mean some theory that all of civilization sprang forth from Mesopotamia, pretty much nobody argues that. It's seen as the "cradle of civilization" because A> the Sumerian civilization is the earliest advanced society to emerge, by whatever measure you want to use really, and B> the vast majority of early domesticated crops and such developed in that region (wheat, oats, etc). The primary exceptions from a modern perspective are rice and corn, which were critical to the development in China and the Americas (and getting corn to be a useful crop from its original wild form likely took centuries, and is arguably a big reason why it took American civilizations so long to kick off; just a lack of profitably farmable produce for too much of prehistory).



This is where the definition of "civilization" is problematic. Gobekli Tempe may have been, as Stonehenge apparently was, a regional focus, possibly shared by a host of different groups who all contributed to its construction and maintenance. While the cooperation in creating those sites is impressive, it doesn't mean the groups building them were anything but hunter-gatherers, or proto-farmers at best.

Wonder if climate had anything to do with Mesopotamia being the cradle. Kinda a shame that people dont think more about the role that climate might play in the rise and fall of civilizations.

[Deleted]

Currently, there is only one true Communist country - North Korea.

"True" Communist means a classless society. North Korea have a political elit who live in luxury and the big mass who live in poverty... hardly a classless society. Classic communist countries is only brutal dictatorship who motivate its existence by claiming that they work toward a comunistic utopia....

[xenogear3]

"True" Communist means a classless society. North Korea have a political elit who live in luxury and the big mass who live in poverty...

They don't think they are in poverty.
They are happy. They are glad to take a bullet for their leader.

They are different from Trump voters.

[Zandalarian Paladin]

If this indeed stands up to scrutiny, that'd mean that we'd have to completely rewrite our history books. Everything from our initial theories about our "original" condition to survival means and potential artifacts will be rewritten.

Now, the theory seems to hold a lot of ground, but it's too early to claim that it's a definite answer. It's still fascinating to read!

[Vanyali]

Wonder if climate had anything to do with Mesopotamia being the cradle. Kinda a shame that people dont think more about the role that climate might play in the rise and fall of civilizations.

This is actually something that a lot of archaeologists are looking at now

Bronze Age Collapse is speculated to be influenced quite heavily by climate change as well.