2 explosions in Manchester Arena - CONFIRMED Fatalities.

[downnola]

Unless society gets rids of terrorists like Isis, wahhabi and you, there will be no moving on.

What society needs is more people willing to speak the truth, not people who obfuscate reality and make excuses for nhilisitic scum.

[StayTuned]

Do you believe that the United States or United Kingdom of 2017 would kill Arab children deliberately were those that kill our children not hiding amongst them? I do not believe they would and this makes the moral distinction between the two groups completely obvious.

Arabs don't care and it's obvious why.
A dead child is a dead child to them.

And I say west because we are all mostly allied. You don't have to actively involve in bombing Syrian cities but you are guilty by association to them.

[Spectral]

Arabs don't care and it's obvious why.
A dead child is a dead child to them.

And I say west because we are all mostly allied. You don't have to actively involve in bombing Syrian cities but you are guilty by association to them.

This an evasion, not an answer.

[Deleted]

What society needs is more people willing to speak the truth, not people who obfuscate reality and make excuses for nhilisitic scum.

Why are you talking of "the truth" as this monolithic unknown secret only SOME people know about. The truth is well know to everyone. We fucked up and now we pay. People like you are pushing back society decades. This isn't a secret. Numbers speak.

[StayTuned]

This an evasion, not an answer.

The moral distinction is clear. We're not killing their children on purpose, they however are.

This moral distinction only matters to us, though. It gives us absolution because we'll just say war is dirty and collateral damage is awful but often not avoidable.

Can you imagine how that sounds to them? And we are confused as to why they hate us so much.

I don't even have a proper solution to this dilemma. The only thing I could think of is a clear cut, all slates wiped clean and we leave them alone. That however won't work because we would all get super outraged over humanitarian issues or "protecting democracy".

[Mormolyce]

Sunni wahhabism is what caused that.

That's a great explanation for the refugee crisis, if it had been happening since the 1700s.

[Deleted]

This an evasion, not an answer.

You are making "intent" somewhat meaningful in this discussion. Perhaps in a theoretical debate intents do matter. However, in reality no one cares. "Sorry we didn't mean to kill your kids" doesn't do much really.

[Spectral]

The moral distinction is clear. We're not killing their children on purpose, they however are.

You should stop spewing anti-Western bullshit then:

We are just as awful pieces of crap as they are.

Reducing a complicated situation to, "we're just as awful..." is moral nihilism.

[StayTuned]

You should stop spewing anti-Western bullshit then:

Reducing a complicated situation to, "we're just as awful..." is moral nihilism.

Oh please. If we trace it all down to where it started, we have no business other than the west trying to establish itself over there in return for weapons and oil.

It isn't like we're fighting a country that's hostile towards us, we're fighting terror organizations consisting of people from all Arab countries. These people formed because we tried to play dirty games with pretty much every Arab leader and rebel forces since I can remember and surely even longer.

[Spectral]

You are making "intent" somewhat meaningful in this discussion. Perhaps in a theoretical debate intents do matter. However, in reality no one cares. "Sorry we didn't mean to kill your kids" doesn't do much really.

Intent is greatly relevant. Our enemies hide amongst children with the goal of this outcome. If you're unable to see the difference between walking into a concert and detonating a bomb for the express purpose of murdering children and striking a military target that hides among children, you're morally lost.

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Oh please. If we trace it all down to where it started, we have no business other than the west trying to establish itself over there in return for weapons and oil.

It isn't like we're fighting a country that's hostile towards us, we're fighting terror organizations consisting of people from all Arab countries. These people formed because we tried to play dirty games with pretty much every Arab leader and rebel forces since I can remember and surely even longer.

This is a shift of the goalposts. You're engaging in nothing but rank whataboutism because of your pathologically self-loathing view of Western nations. There is no legitimate moral basis for deliberately killing children with the goal of sowing fear among your enemy. Your inability or unwillingness to distinguish between terror attacks on civilians and whatever you think makes those justifiable is moral cowardice.

[Deleted]

Who is literally anyone to define or challenge any civil liberty? They're all just ideas made up by people, some of which have worked out pretty OK and some of which haven't. The Founding Fathers aren't possessed of any sort of magical quality that makes them the One True Authority on these matters. They're just the affluent people who were left standing at the end of a war that resulted in a group of people needing a new government. Certainly it has worked out pretty well for us for the most part and that's in no small part because they had some good ideas, but that doesn't mean everything they said was golden or that no further change should occur. Indeed, they didn't even free the slaves, even after writing that "that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." That is in and of itself proof of their fallibility, should anyone actually require proof of fallibility for humans.

Valuing different rights differently doesn't mean one does so arbitrarily, but people who, rather than think for themselves, treat civil rights like the product of divine revelation, handed down from on high by the gods themselves will never understand that.

Lol, you can't help but straw man. Where was it ever implied that I think civil rights are divine? I repeatedly said that they aren't. You have been saying how free speech is life, which it's not. It's just something that the founding fathers said we should all be able to express. Just like how they said we have the right to keep and bear arms.

And no, if you value different rights "differently" then you are being arbitrary. We're talking about law here. You don't have to like that we have the right to keep and bear arms, but its irrefutable that we do. It is just as important as free speech according to the law. You don't get to pick and choose. If you believe that it should be revoked, or infringed upon, your argument that the first cannot be falls flat. Don't bring up constitutional rights if you don't even support the bill of rights in the first place, pal.

[StayTuned]

Intent is greatly relevant. Our enemies hide amongst children with the goal of this outcome. If you're unable to see the difference between walking into a concert and detonating a bomb for the express purpose of murdering children and striking a military target that hides among children, you're morally lost.

Everyone can see the difference, stop clinging to it. The difference however only matters to you. It doesn't contribute a single bit to a solution. Thinking you have the moral high ground won't stop anyone from bombing your children as long as the terrorists have casualties on their side, too.

The West will not stop this problem by bombing even more. Terrorism isn't a state than can be defeated, it's a Hydra. It's pointless to cut its head off, it's pointless to bomb the city they are hiding in. Both will just be replaced with something new.

One side has to withdraw and stop their current tactics, but since both sides don't like to be the loser, we'll all be losers in the end.

[Slant]

Intent is greatly relevant. Our enemies hide amongst children with the goal of this outcome. If you're unable to see the difference between walking into a concert and detonating a bomb for the express purpose of murdering children and striking a military target that hides among children, you're morally lost.

This is a shift of the goalposts. You're engaging in nothing but rank whataboutism because of your pathologically self-loathing view of Western nations. There is no legitimate moral basis for deliberately killing children with the goal of sowing fear among your enemy. Your inability or unwillingness to distinguish between terror attacks on civilians and whatever you think makes those justifiable is moral cowardice.

You're making good points. I'd like to add, however, that I'm pretty certain they do not consider unbeliever children as targets that should be avoided, morally speaking. And there is a distinct difference in morality involved. We definitely have the disadvantage in that there are atrocities we try to avoid if at all possible. And the more savage areas for the world misinterpret the Western World's tendency to pull the punches as weakness rather than our perception of ourselves being kind and showing strength in compassion.

[StayTuned]

This is a shift of the goalposts. You're engaging in nothing but rank whataboutism because of your pathologically self-loathing view of Western nations. There is no legitimate moral basis for deliberately killing children with the goal of sowing fear among your enemy. Your inability or unwillingness to distinguish between terror attacks on civilians and whatever you think makes those justifiable is moral cowardice.

Bla bla bla. This isn't whataboutism, this is reality. You cannot ignore the whole past and the origins of this conflict in your pursuit of moral absolution for the actions of our own nations.

[Deleted]

Intent is greatly relevant. Our enemies hide amongst children with the goal of this outcome. If you're unable to see the difference between walking into a concert and detonating a bomb for the express purpose of murdering children and striking a military target that hides among children, you're morally lost.

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This is a shift of the goalposts. You're engaging in nothing but rank whataboutism because of your pathologically self-loathing view of Western nations. There is no legitimate moral basis for deliberately killing children with the goal of sowing fear among your enemy. Your inability or unwillingness to distinguish between terror attacks on civilians and whatever you think makes those justifiable is moral cowardice.

None of the parents of dead kids burned alive in a bombed building give the tiniest flying fuck about your intent.

[PassingBy]

You're making good points. I'd like to add, however, that I'm pretty certain they do not consider unbeliever children as targets that should be avoided, morally speaking. And there is a distinct difference in morality involved. We definitely have the disadvantage in that there are atrocities we try to avoid if at all possible. And the more savage areas for the world misinterpret the Western World's tendency to pull the punches as weakness rather than our perception of ourselves being kind and showing strength in compassion.

I'd say it is quite hard to misinterpret the Wester World.
Not after the whole "Iraq weapons of mass destruction" thing.
Not after basically destroying Lybia and turning it into a medieval feudal state.
Not after sponsoring a civil war in Syria that has taken thousands upon thousands of lives.

What is obvious is that everywhere the Western World interferes it brings chaos, destruction and death.
And then the West is somehow surprised when the mere echo of those chaos, destruction and death come to them. Surprised and astonished.
"Why us". "We haven't done anything wrong".

Hilarious to watch.

[Spectral]

Everyone can see the difference, stop clinging to it.

You agree to stop telling this lie then, right?

We are just as awful pieces of crap as they are.

[ParanoiD84]

None of the parents of dead kids burned alive in a bombed building give the tiniest flying fuck about your intent.

Better to join the group who slaughters the most children and civilians that will show them. Dont think i need to list all the things they do or force children to do.

It's a no win situation i guess.

[Spectral]

You're making good points. I'd like to add, however, that I'm pretty certain they do not consider unbeliever children as targets that should be avoided, morally speaking. And there is a distinct difference in morality involved. We definitely have the disadvantage in that there are atrocities we try to avoid if at all possible. And the more savage areas for the world misinterpret the Western World's tendency to pull the punches as weakness rather than our perception of ourselves being kind and showing strength in compassion.

You're absolutely right - to Islamic radicals, all infidels are fair game. Here's the ISIS statement on Manchester, celebrating the death of "Crusaders" and praising Allah for his role in the matter. The only limit on the number of infidels that ISIS kills is their limited ability to do so.

Those equating limited strikes intended to hit military targets with the mentality expressed in the link above are utterly disgusting, anti-Western parasites on their societies.

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Bla bla bla. This isn't whataboutism, this is reality. You cannot ignore the whole past and the origins of this conflict in your pursuit of moral absolution for the actions of our own nations.

If we're digging into the past and wish to understand the historical basis and mentality behind ISIS, focusing on some specific short-run regime change is ignorant. The historical exploration that's necessary is understanding the heritage of conquest that members of the caliphate believe they are the heirs to.

[StayTuned]

You agree to stop telling this lie then, right?

This isn't a lie.

We are just as awful. We're probably just not as sinister as they are.

The fact we don't kill their children on purpose takes nothing away from the fact that the West is hugely responsible for the state that these countries are currently in. Most Arab countries were quite stable. Everything we are experiencing is a direct consequence of our nation's actions from the near past.

Are you that blind to this, or is it something you need to turn a blind eye on so that you can sleep better?

I am not apologizing them or excusing them in any way. I am saying that they are a demon we created ourselves.