Should iLvL below Mythic Raiding Max out BELOW Mythic Base?

[Sting]

Content should reward people appropriately for the difficulty/effort. LFR being able to reward items of normal raid(or even higher) quality is not appropriate to the difficulty/effort.

I think Johnny Awesome and casual lfr grinders like him are too big of a percentile for Blizzard to shaft them over like that. Let them have their dreams of 925, it'll almost never happen. The times it does it's actually quite funny imo.

[Tradu]

Jaylock, feel free to quit if you don't like it.

If you're not willing to quit over it, then suck it up, Buttercup. Why should Blizzard care if you won't put your sub dollars where your endlessly whining mouth is?

That's not how it works, at all. People are allowed to give feedback on things they don't like.

[Queen of Hamsters]

No it doesn't. That's just bullshit. If your self-esteem really hinges on whether or not other people have gear that has a similar item level to yours, that's your problem.


.

A-bloody-Men with a cherry on top!

[RoKPaNda]

I strongly believe the item level upgrade of items dropped should cap at 10 for warforged and 20 for titanforged. It'd stop raid finder and normal mode from being a possible source of upgrades for most Mythic raiders and Mythic+ would still provide item levels up to and including 910 as it currently stands. I think it'd put an end to the gear side of the mythic raider burnout and still provide an incentive for those not raiding to run M+ for the item upgrades.

Those of you who strongly believe that everything is completely optional don't seem to quite understand what it's like to be raiding competitively, and a change like this would hardly affect you in the long run anyway. Thousands of players raid competitively and I'm pretty sure half of those are having second thoughts due to the pressure of maintaining high activity during Legion. AP is one thing since you can always count on a steady flow whatever AP-generating content you do, but every single source of items possibly Titanforging to 925 is on a completely different level.

I read posts like this and I just have to laugh because you're complaining about problems that simply don't exist. Mythic raiders are NOT doing Normal raids and especially not raid finder as a source of gear. The chance of getting a high level titanforge from something as low level as LFR or Normal is so tiny, it's like winning the local lottery levels of tiny. It's more easily possible through heroic due to the higher base level item, but it doesn't become a "problem" until people do shit like split farming. So it's not TF that's the problem, not at all.

A healthier solution for the game would be to just make your gear scale to a set ilevel inside a Mythic raid and that would allow for tighter tuning anyway. There is no point in screwing up something fun and interesting like titanforging to appeal to such a small subsection of the playerbase.

And no, you're not in any way forced to go back and do LFR or Normal in order to be a progression raider, that's absolute bullshit, you just split farm. If you CHOOSE to run Normal or LFR, that's YOUR CHOICE that you make for a minuscule chance at a high TF but anyone doing progression raiding should know that it's not worth it.

Mythic raiding still gives the very best. Nobody playing the game normally is going to have better gear than you. Nobody that just raids Heroic every week as their endgame is going to outgear you. If you choose to do their content and your content too, you may end up even further ahead, but then you're putting in MORE EFFORT so that's fine.

[Sting]

Another thing I'd like to add is that the titanforge system creates an unbalance within raiding guilds as well, one that is based on luck.

For example, at the top end in our guild we have a warrior at ilvl 917 and at the bottom end we got people around 908-910. Some of the guys with 910 ilvl has killed more bosses on mythic than the 917 warrior, but they haven't been lucky with proccing WF\TF, leaving them at a disadvantage. This can be extremely frustrating to some people, since they put in more effort and is rewarded with less gear.

I don't think this is that big an issue, if you're using master loot like you said. Did he get ahead that much just by coining high titanforging? I'd say that's a statistical outlier, I don't recognize that from my own guild. Not with such a large gap.

[Queen of Hamsters]

That's not how it works, at all. People are allowed to give feedback on things they don't like.

Giving feedback on things you don't like =/= disliking everything depending on the general opinion of the wow population and then making 300 threads a day poking at those opinions and trying to stir shit up.

[Sting]

Giving feedback on things you don't like =/= disliking everything depending on the general opinion of the wow population and then making 300 threads a day poking at those opinions and trying to stir shit up.

Taking jaylock serious in <current year> OMEGALUL

Memes aside, atleast this thread has some decent arguments by players lured in by his bait.

[Tradu]

That's what the player base has forced upon the players. It was advertised and designed as an alternative progression system to raiding.

It literally doesn't matter what it was advertised as, and if it was designed as an alternative then it clearly failed. All that matters is what it actually is in the live game.

- - - Updated - - -

With the understanding that the probability of getting +N ilvls of forging is supposed to decline exponentially with N. Going from LFR to 925 should be extremely unlikely.

Looking at my main's gear, the titanforged items seem mostly to have come from M+, the M+ weekly chest, and weekly quests. Those might have a higher chance?

Keep in mind that items from the weekly chest are automatically labelled as titanforged(which is supposedly causing a bug where they have a lower chance to titanforge further, because the game thinks they had to go from the base ilevel for that M+ level up to the weekly chest ilevel already), so that might throw off the count a bit.

- - - Updated - - -

Giving feedback on things you don't like =/= disliking everything depending on the general opinion of the wow population and then making 300 threads a day poking at those opinions and trying to stir shit up.

Sure, Jaylock is a you-know-what, but the poster I was replying to suggested that the only options people have are "suck it up" and "quit", which is not true.

[Jyggalag]

No idea why this wasn't in game since the release of Legion. Someone at Blizzard get that man a job.

[Osmeric]

Sure, Jaylock is a you-know-what, but the poster I was replying to suggested that the only options people have are "suck it up" and "quit", which is not true.

I'm sure Jaylock is on their "known shitposter ignore" list, so quitting really is the only way for him to provide feedback now.

[Hashcrypt]

Mythic+ and TF systems are the ONLY reason Legion has had success so far. Those two systems have kept all the content alive and viable sources of legendaries and upgrades. Could you imagine how boring and lifeless this game would be if the only thing to do outside of a raid lockout was to do world quests? Instead doing all tiers of raids and running mythic+ dungeons is not only a chill and fun time, but you also stand a chance at getting a really good TF or legendary.

God some of you could be dying of thirst, be given a pitcher of ice cold water, but then complain that the water is just too wet...

[Arainie]

I read posts like this and I just have to laugh because you're complaining about problems that simply don't exist. Mythic raiders are NOT doing Normal raids and especially not raid finder as a source of gear. The chance of getting a high level titanforge from something as low level as LFR or Normal is so tiny, it's like winning the local lottery levels of tiny. It's more easily possible through heroic due to the higher base level item, but it doesn't become a "problem" until people do shit like split farming. So it's not TF that's the problem, not at all.

A healthier solution for the game would be to just make your gear scale to a set ilevel inside a Mythic raid and that would allow for tighter tuning anyway. There is no point in screwing up something fun and interesting like titanforging to appeal to such a small subsection of the playerbase.

And no, you're not in any way forced to go back and do LFR or Normal in order to be a progression raider, that's absolute bullshit, you just split farm. If you CHOOSE to run Normal or LFR, that's YOUR CHOICE that you make for a minuscule chance at a high TF but anyone doing progression raiding should know that it's not worth it.

Mythic raiding still gives the very best. Nobody playing the game normally is going to have better gear than you. Nobody that just raids Heroic every week as their endgame is going to outgear you. If you choose to do their content and your content too, you may end up even further ahead, but then you're putting in MORE EFFORT so that's fine.

I read posts like this and I just have to laugh because you're completely unable to put yourself in anyone elses shoes than your own. Competitive Mythic raiders ARE doing content such as Elisande/Gul'dan RF/N for high ilvl trinket procs, and it's nothing but a stupid feature from such a point of view. Now to move on to your set Mythic item level, that will effectively cause every Mythic raider to hunt for the item with perfect stats from any difficulty, not settling until you receive the leech or socket procs you need on every single slot. Even if tertiary "stats" are excluded from the equation, Mythic+ is going to drop the best loot out there and every single other piece will be meaningless. It doesn't solve near as much as the problems it causes. We already did this in WoD for CMs, only to a much lesser extent.

Finally, the real solution for gear when it comes to raiding is to stop the incredibly ridiculous power scaling seen during recent expansions. We started off with 2M HP doing 400-500k DPS in Mythic EN. We now have 4M HP doing around 1M dps, and we're just at the second tier. Obviously, this wouldn't be well received by the casual part of the community so it's not going to happen.

Honest question: Do you raid Mythic on any form of "competitive" level?

Edit:
Last but not least, the chance of Titanforging is not as microscopically low as you seem to think it is. I have several guildies with 915-925 RF/N items and personally I have a 925 Heroic TF relic from the very first week of NH. It's quite boring and stupid to know that you won't have to replace a specific item until Mythic ToS when you're just gone in to a new raid tier just because you won the lottery.

[Darsithis]

Hi. Mythic raider here to clarify this marvelous gem of poor interpretation.

My interpretation was more based on Jaylock, who has years of history posting about how everyone who raids heroic (now mythic) deserves to have everything better than everyone else and it's so terrible that someone else can get similar gear because it takes away that person's personal achievements.

The reason we get salty as mythic raiders is when you go in to mythic, work hard to kill a boss and then have to DE more than 1/2 the loot on early kills because suprise, hc items have titty-forged to be better ilvl. It isn't anything to do with self-esteem. Not sure why you think it does, since he said 'devalues', which isn't inaccurate. Look drops are devalued by being worth less than if hc items were capped. I will agree however, it doesn't demean the achievement of actually killing the boss.

It is however irritating when I see someone with a normal DoS ilvl 925 who hasn't stepped in to heroic difficulty raids. I don't quit over it, but it makes me have an internal debate about Blizzards methodology shift from providing gear directly for the next difficulty so there's a greater sense of staggered character progression.

I don't care that much about it though since, if someone is trash at playing the character, gear won't improve them. It's more or less the same debate as "should LFR be a thing" where I have to say, just because I don't use the tour bus doesn't mean I want it to erupt in flames. I simply don't care.

You're absolutely right, that does devalue the gear. We have the same issue in heroic, some of my pieces weren't replaced because normal TF/WF gear exceeded or reached the same limit. I got a 905 ring from normal Tich, for instance, and an 890 tier chest from normal Krosus before we did them on heroic only to get the same or lower.

[Arrashi]

All gear should cap at ilvl 800.

[Tradu]

My interpretation was more based on Jaylock, who has years of history posting about how everyone who raids heroic (now mythic) deserves to have everything better than everyone else and it's so terrible that someone else can get similar gear because it takes away that person's personal achievements.

They do, that's how a proper reward structure works(ignoring equivalent high-end PvP, which should also reward similar gear)

[Taladendren]

Why should people's BiS list include titanforged trinkets from a tier or two ago or titanforged relics from mythic+s they can finish in ten minutes? What's the huge downside in capping titanforged at 30 (or 25 or 20) item levels? Why should I have a belt from titan-forged belt from heroic above that's 5 ilvls (920) above next tiers heroic?

The only defense of super titan-forging I've seen here is that "everyone should have access to max ilvl gear if they play long enough". Why? You don't get a mythic Guldan mount for playing long enough, why should you get a 925 piece..?

The arguments in favor of super-titanforging seem to very weak. If you run only LFR, you're still very happy with an 895 piece or a 910 piece if you only run mythic+ and get that out of the chest. At that point, if the content is appropriate for you, you're still getting a really great item and you're going to be very happy about it.

Like everyone else in favor of the cap, it's not about ego, it's about something resembling a growth in character power as you progress. Why should one be able to get 925 from a world quest for chasing squirrels? An 885 piece maybe? Why is 925 for that so much more beneficial to the health of the game than an 885? I don't get it. This isn't a "it never happens" thing, I have a 915 ring from three chesting a +10 chest and a 920 belt from heroic.

[RoKPaNda]

I read posts like this and I just have to laugh because you're completely unable to put yourself in anyone elses shoes than your own. Competitive Mythic raiders ARE doing content such as Elisande/Gul'dan RF/N for high ilvl trinket procs, and it's nothing but a stupid feature from such a point of view. Now to move on to your set Mythic item level, that will effectively cause every Mythic raider to hunt for the item with perfect stats from any difficulty, not settling until you receive the leech or socket procs you need on every single slot. Even if tertiary "stats" are excluded from the equation, Mythic+ is going to drop the best loot out there and every single other piece will be meaningless. It doesn't solve near as much as the problems it causes. We already did this in WoD for CMs, only to a much lesser extent.

Finally, the real solution for gear when it comes to raiding is to stop the incredibly ridiculous power scaling seen during recent expansions. We started off with 2M HP doing 400-500k DPS in Mythic EN. We now have 4M HP doing around 1M dps, and we're just at the second tier. Obviously, this wouldn't be well received by the casual part of the community so it's not going to happen.

Honest question: Do you raid Mythic on any form of "competitive" level?

Edit:
Last but not least, the chance of Titanforging is not as microscopically low as you seem to think it is. I have several guildies with 915-925 RF/N items and personally I have a 925 Heroic TF relic from the very first week of NH. It's quite boring and stupid to know that you won't have to replace a specific item until Mythic ToS when you're just gone in to a new raid tier just because you won the lottery.

No, nobody who has any clue about titanforging is farming normal or RF for TF procs. Yes, the chance of ilevel 860-865 gear (LFR) titanforging up to Mythic levels is microscopically low. It's more likely from normal but the chance is still so low it's honestly not worth farming for. You're going to need to offer some proof that you have "several" guildies with a high level LFR titanforge item.

You're lacking perspective. You want to change the game for everyone because of a problem for a very tiny percentage of the playerbase. Nerf split farming, give Mythic gear a higher chance to titanforge, etc. At present it's just "I feel compelled to play more so lets fix it by taking things away from everyone else." It's not "Make things better for me." it's "Make things WORSE for everyone else to make me happy."

When a percentage of a tiny subset of the playerbase wants changes made to the game that ONLY benefit them and are negative for everyone else that doesn't make much business sense.

I've been raiding in this game since early Vanilla, and this is probably the healthiest for the game that gear progression has ever been, and that's terrifying for the Mythic raiders because we've never had to worry about not just being handed the best of the best of everything for doing what we do. Now there's a chance that someone that raids a lower difficulty is going to have a couple pieces that are on par with what we have. And that's fine. If we're just raiding for the gear we're raiding for the wrong reasons. I'd be fine with Mythic raids being more like challenge modes, obviously Blizzard would need to tweak the system to prevent the issues you mentioned, but I'd be fine with the tighter tuning that came along with it.

Edit: The lazy bandaid solution would be to cap TF on sub-Mythic gear at like 5~ ilevels below the base level of Mythic loot while still allowing Mythic loot to Warforge.

[Deleted]

Why should people's BiS list include titanforged trinkets from a tier or two ago or titanforged relics from mythic+s they can finish in ten minutes? What's the huge downside in capping titanforged at 30 (or 25 or 20) item levels? Why should I have a belt from titan-forged belt from heroic above that's 5 ilvls (920) above next tiers heroic?

The only defense of super titan-forging I've seen here is that "everyone should have access to max ilvl gear if they play long enough". Why? You don't get a mythic Guldan mount for playing long enough, why should you get a 925 piece..?

The arguments in favor of super-titanforging seem to very weak. If you run only LFR, you're still very happy with an 895 piece or a 910 piece if you only run mythic+ and get that out of the chest. At that point, if the content is appropriate for you, you're still getting a really great item and you're going to be very happy about it.

Like everyone else in favor of the cap, it's not about ego, it's about something resembling a growth in character power as you progress. Why should one be able to get 925 from a world quest for chasing squirrels? An 885 piece maybe? Why is 925 for that so much more beneficial to the health of the game than an 885? I don't get it. This isn't a "it never happens" thing, I have a 915 ring from three chesting a +10 chest and a 920 belt from heroic.

There is no argument, the only reason some people want the system to remain as is, is because they get free loot that they would otherwise never get.

We are only on the first tier of the expansion and the problems are already blatantly obvious, casters waiting for withered jim to get a high proc Arcanocrystal, hunters farming ursoc for BTI, Chrono Shards and the list goes on. Only a blind/ignorant person doesn't see what will happen when ToS releases, if things remain like they are, people will farm NH ad infinitum since several trinkets and tier-bonuses will remain BiS. Which will lead to blizzard having to nerf a different item every week since they ll never back off and fix titanforging.

Arguments like "get some self-esteem" or "nobody forces you to farm old content" come from people who have no idea what they are talking about as they don't raid mythic so they can't comprehend what the problem is.

Not that any of this discussion matters ofc, blizzard won't back off their dumb system mid-expansion so we'll just have to deal with it.

[Kaver]

I think the only people who got a problem with titanforging is the mythic raiders.

I got two friends (mythic raiders) who think it is unfair that people who "only" play heroic raiding potentially can get as high ilvl as them.
But the reality is, that one heroic raider will only get titanforged above 905+ very rarely. I have done Heroic Nighthold many times now and I have only gotten one titanforged item above 900+ (910 ring from gul'dan). My equipped ilvl is 905 and my friends have 915+ equipped ilvl so they still have the braggin right (The base of Asmongolds "lets go big d**k"). I dont understand why they get butthurt from me rarely getting ONE item the same ilvl as them. I could see the problem if I got titanforged items from every raidrun I did but that is certainly not the case.

[Osmeric]

Not that any of this discussion matters ofc, blizzard won't back off their dumb system mid-expansion so we'll just have to deal with it.

If you convince Blizzard this is a really serious problem, their solution may be to nerf mythic (or remove it entirely) so the RNG loot effects become irrelevant. Already they are less tolerant in this expansion of the complaint that M raiders have the grind too much outside of raids. Complain enough and they'll decide you aren't worth the bother.