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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    If you convince Blizzard this is a really serious problem, their solution may be to nerf mythic (or remove it entirely) so the RNG loot effects become irrelevant. Already they are less tolerant in this expansion of the complaint that M raiders have the grind too much outside of raids. Complain enough and they'll decide you aren't worth the bother.
    If they don't think it's a problem why do they keep nerfing items when a new tier releases? Gul'dan trinket getting nerfed. Tier bonuses getting nerfed. They said several times that they don't like old content items to remain bis. But of course they keep going for band-aid fixes (manually nerfing each item) instead of going for the one move which will fix the problem permanently, cap titanforging on the above tier/difficulty ilvl.

    As for your wet wish to remove mythic raiding, part of me hopes it happens one day because maybe then people like you would realise what a sorry state the game would be in.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    I think the only people who got a problem with titanforging is the mythic raiders.

    I got two friends (mythic raiders) who think it is unfair that people who "only" play heroic raiding potentially can get as high ilvl as them.
    But the reality is, that one heroic raider will only get titanforged above 905+ very rarely. I have done Heroic Nighthold many times now and I have only gotten one titanforged item above 900+ (910 ring from gul'dan). My equipped ilvl is 905 and my friends have 915+ equipped ilvl so they still have the braggin right (The base of Asmongolds "lets go big d**k"). I dont understand why they get butthurt from me rarely getting ONE item the same ilvl as them. I could see the problem if I got titanforged items from every raidrun I did but that is certainly not the case.
    Would you really have been unhappy if you had got a 900 or 905 instead? Now, if you decided to keep pushing and downed mythic krosus after __ wipes he drops a 910 ring. After putting a bunch of work, you finally down that mofo and... he drops chaos crystals! The same as all those crappy mythic+ chests.

    I'm the kind of person who'd do a level 1 DS run just because. I agree with the people who say if you're just doing mythic for the gear, you're definitely doing it wrong.

    However, character power progression is a normal part of RPGs and something blizzard (ion) has said repeatedly they value. They're making a mess of it with the lack of a titanforge cap. If heroic were capped at entry mythic level 905 (910 for Guldan), that alone would make a decent difference. It's not all there is to raiding, but it's nice. You can both have titanforging AND maintain character power progression through a raid with a reasonable cap.

    Emphasis on reasonable. The point isn't that "plebs" shouldn't have mythic gear. The point is that as you progress through mythic and heroic, you should be able to feel your character making some steady progress. Yes, mythic raiders certainly have higher average item levels, but you shouldn't really be waiting until new warforges can beat your old warforges for the upgrades..

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    No, nobody who has any clue about titanforging is farming normal or RF for TF procs. Yes, the chance of ilevel 860-865 gear (LFR) titanforging up to Mythic levels is microscopically low. It's more likely from normal but the chance is still so low it's honestly not worth farming for. You're going to need to offer some proof that you have "several" guildies with a high level LFR titanforge item.

    You're lacking perspective. You want to change the game for everyone because of a problem for a very tiny percentage of the playerbase. Nerf split farming, give Mythic gear a higher chance to titanforge, etc. At present it's just "I feel compelled to play more so lets fix it by taking things away from everyone else." It's not "Make things better for me." it's "Make things WORSE for everyone else to make me happy."

    When a percentage of a tiny subset of the playerbase wants changes made to the game that ONLY benefit them and are negative for everyone else that doesn't make much business sense.

    I've been raiding in this game since early Vanilla, and this is probably the healthiest for the game that gear progression has ever been, and that's terrifying for the Mythic raiders because we've never had to worry about not just being handed the best of the best of everything for doing what we do. Now there's a chance that someone that raids a lower difficulty is going to have a couple pieces that are on par with what we have. And that's fine. If we're just raiding for the gear we're raiding for the wrong reasons. I'd be fine with Mythic raids being more like challenge modes, obviously Blizzard would need to tweak the system to prevent the issues you mentioned, but I'd be fine with the tighter tuning that came along with it.

    Edit: The lazy bandaid solution would be to cap TF on sub-Mythic gear at like 5~ ilevels below the base level of Mythic loot while still allowing Mythic loot to Warforge.
    I both agree and disagree with you. Yes, it's a very small percentage of the population, but that small percentage of the population still heavily drives raid development. If they go away, the quality of raid content is sure to decline for the rest of us as well (at least those of us interested in Mythic raiding overall). The excessive burnout for hardcore Mythic raiders this expansion is mostly due to early AP requirements, but Titanforging also plays a big role. Titanforging also creates a fairly difficult problem when it comes to balancing raids, and most definitly increases the gulf in class (gear-wise) between top-end raiders and "casual" Mythic raiders. Look at the Krosus (not to talk about early Star Augur) Mythic DPS requirement for example, it was a huge obstacle to overcome for many less hardcore Mythic guilds because it was designed with high traits and item level in mind until the new traits came into play.

    The reason I suggest capping WF/TF loot at 10/20 ilvls above the base is that I believe it does more good than harm for the development of the "casual" playerbase, while slightly discouraging split farming (if Blizzard had a solution to splitfarming that didn't harm the less hardcore playerbase it'd have been implemented already) and relieving pressure on Mythic raiders from having to farm otherwise obsolete content (including a crapton of M+, a handful of runs a week would suffice if you disregard AP). Yes, the "casual" playerbase does lose that very low chance of obtaining an incredibly powerful item, but the incentive of exploring higher content also increases at the same time. Right now there's not even much of an incentive to step in to NH HC, farming M+ or even Nethershards provides a more constant stream of gear upgrades.

    I know gear isn't everything, and I myself see it as nothing but a tool to aid progress, but I sympathize highly with those who love competitive progression raiding but have very little chance of competing due to having a full time job or a family. 4-5 hours a night 3-5 nights a week has always been sufficient in order to be competitive until Legion (obviously excluding the top 10 race), but it simply doesn't work that way anymore. It's great to have progression outside of raids, and I love the concept of AP-providing content even though it could've been slightly better executed at the beginning, but the AP combined with the randomness of titanforging just hurts a bit too much in that regard. Finding a middle ground that allows for both sets of players to co-exist is a much better solution than to either ignore the passionate and dedicated players that have spent years in the game or to run over the casual players who don't want to or can't spend as much time in the game.
    Last edited by Arainie; 2017-05-26 at 02:44 PM.

  4. #184
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    For Nighthold :

    Mythic : base 925 item level.
    Heroic, Normal, LFR : up to 925 item level.

    To me it personally never feels right when a lower difficulty can give higher item level than the most difficult mode base item level. It's fine to me that all other modes below mythic can roll up to the mythic item level, but item level in mythic should always the maximum, same for when you are at the highest rank in pvp receiving the highest rewards, and those below that, receiving less.

    Or at least introduce a system where mythic raiders can farm something like valor to upgrade their pieces to that maximum cap over time (although make it staggered and don't enable it instantly when the tier is out, stagger it monthly, starting two months after mythic opens up).

  5. #185
    I don't see the problem with the current system. Yes you may see someone with 1 or 2 items that have TF past mythic level gear because of RNG luck, but it's not their entire gear set. A heroic only raider is not going to have a higher ilvl than a mythic raider.

    All of my characters are heroic/mythic+ geared only and sit around the ilvl 905-910 range. I imagine a mythic/mythic+ raider sits at ilvl 915+ easily, probably ilvl 920+ if they've farmed warforges.

    So this current system lets heroic players get UP to mythic level gear over time, but for a vast majority they will not have the RNG luck to surpass Mythic raiders. So yes there's still value raiding Mythic, there's just not as big as a gap as previous expansions.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Kluian05 View Post
    I don't see the problem with the current system. Yes you may see someone with 1 or 2 items that have TF past mythic level gear because of RNG luck, but it's not their entire gear set. A heroic only raider is not going to have a higher ilvl than a mythic raider.

    All of my characters are heroic/mythic+ geared only and sit around the ilvl 905-910 range. I imagine a mythic/mythic+ raider sits at ilvl 915+ easily, probably ilvl 920+ if they've farmed warforges.

    So this current system lets heroic players get UP to mythic level gear over time, but for a vast majority they will not have the RNG luck to surpass Mythic raiders. So yes there's still value raiding Mythic, there's just not as big as a gap as previous expansions.
    We're 9/10M and our raid team's average ilvl is 912. Those who run a lot of M+ have 912-917, and those who don't have 907-912. I think you underestimate how much of our gear actually comes from outside of Mythic raids and the fact that a large portion of the Mythic loot is "just" 905.

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by Arainie View Post
    We're 9/10M and our raid team's average ilvl is 912. Those who run a lot of M+ have 912-917, and those who don't have 907-912. I think you underestimate how much of our gear actually comes from outside of Mythic raids and the fact that a large portion of the Mythic loot is "just" 905.
    When I said characters are 905-910 range, I mean max, not equipped. I presume you are basing your avg ilvl based on equip. Most heroic only chars are probably only 903-908 equipped.

    Either way, the problem really lies in Mythic+ and the farming capability of gear, especially with the recent tick of 890 base dropping from 10+. A large chunk of good warforge/titanforge comes from Mythic+, and since Mythic raiders don't have access to raiding more than once a week, the ilvl gap between types of raiders is relatively small.

    If you're a mythic raider and don't do mythic+ consistently, I don't think you have room to complain about heroic/mythic+ raiders encroaching on your ilvl. They are putting in the effort too.

    I don't believe your assertion that a large portion of Mythic gear is "just" 905. Over time your raid should be replacing this with the uncommon warforged to 910-915 level. That's like saying most heroic gear is "just" 890, and we know that not to be the case otherwise this "issue" people seeing wouldn't be occurring.
    Last edited by Kluian05; 2017-05-26 at 03:48 PM.

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Arainie View Post
    We're 9/10M and our raid team's average ilvl is 912. Those who run a lot of M+ have 912-917, and those who don't have 907-912. I think you underestimate how much of our gear actually comes from outside of Mythic raids and the fact that a large portion of the Mythic loot is "just" 905.
    As far as this goes, I could see them making mythic gear drop at 'max ilvl' and have no chance to wf/tf at all (i.e. Mythic NH gear starts and ends at 925), and then letting lower ilvl stuff TF / WF up to that 925 marker.

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    If you convince Blizzard this is a really serious problem, their solution may be to nerf mythic (or remove it entirely) so the RNG loot effects become irrelevant. Already they are less tolerant in this expansion of the complaint that M raiders have the grind too much outside of raids. Complain enough and they'll decide you aren't worth the bother.
    Err they said it was a major problem and they were not happy with how artifact power played out...

    I don't think they could of refuted your statement harder.

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by Kvo View Post
    As far as this goes, I could see them making mythic gear drop at 'max ilvl' and have no chance to wf/tf at all (i.e. Mythic NH gear starts and ends at 925), and then letting lower ilvl stuff TF / WF up to that 925 marker.
    That would just make Mythic raiders quit / bored even quicker. Blizzard likes this system as it adds replay value to the game.

    You can't do raid tiers for 6 months but people get BiS gear within a month and have nothing to do.

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylock View Post
    With this change, it would still feel to all players (even mythic raiders) that they can find upgrades for their character from any source, but also leaves incentive for people to really push into higher end challenging content, because if a mythic raider really wants better gear, then he has to be in mythic raiding to do so, and it rewards him accordingly as he kills bosses there.
    But in actuality this proposal of yours would function as a barrier, and would keep more players out of mythic raids than it would to encourage them to participate.

    You act as though heroic players are clad in full + uberforged 915 gear without ever stepping foot into Mythic, while you are in 900 gear and have cleared Mythic. That isn't true and it isn't happening.

    All of these ego fueled posts you create with ideas and proposals to "make raiding great again" serve one purpose, to feed your narcissism.

    What you generally discuss is nothing more than a deliberate, calculated, and systematic attempt to ensure the "haves" have a sufficient degree of separation from the "have nots" all to mask your own insecurities. Because if a heroic geared player can perform as good or better than you then you feel your coveted raid spot is in jeopardy.

    The game isn't hard (once you know what to do and how to do it). If that is true, (and it is) then a lower "skilled" player when compared side by side with a higher "skilled" player, in the same level of gear should both perform in a given acceptable/effective range. Therein lies the dilemma (as you see it) if they CAN perform marginally the same, then you by virtue of self preservation, must devise a way to keep that gear dissimilar. Therefore, this "change" does benefit the game, does not benefit lesser geared/skilled players, does not even benefit your fellow mythic raiders, it benefits you and those who also share and feed into your narcissism. MY proposal is therapy.

  12. #192
    no, but it shouldnt be able to roll max
    i think each difficulty should be able to roll up to maybe the next level+5
    so heroic could go 910
    normal could go 895 etc.

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylock View Post
    So the intent of the Warforge / Titanforge system was to give players the ability to perhaps find an upgrade from doing ANY type of content, whether it be WQ, Dungeons, Mythic Dungeons, LFR, Raids all the way up to Mythic.

    The system as it stands now kind of devalues the higher raiding echelons especially with how frequently an item can warforge / titanforge.

    Could the system be changed to still give players who don't do the highest difficulty / highest form of content the feeling that they can get an upgrade from any source of content that THEY do, without it feeling like a penalty?

    So for example, lets say the warforge / titanforge system will allow ANY content below Mythic raiding (and a certain tier of Mythic+ dungeons) to be able to titanforge up to ilvl 895. But if you then participate in high level mythic+ dungeons, or Mythic raiding, the gear then starts at a base ilvl of 900 and can titanforge up to 925.

    With this change, it would still feel to all players (even mythic raiders) that they can find upgrades for their character from any source, but also leaves incentive for people to really push into higher end challenging content, because if a mythic raider really wants better gear, then he has to be in mythic raiding to do so, and it rewards him accordingly as he kills bosses there.

    Of course with each new tier of content the ilvl will be raised to match the tier, so the max ilvl titanforge below mythic Tomb would be raised to 5 ilvls below mythic tomb gear.
    You're assuming that everybody is walking around in TF gear, which is an absolute fallacy. Mythic raiders on average are 8-10 I lvls higher than heroic/Mythic + players
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  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azkial View Post
    You're assuming that everybody is walking around in TF gear, which is an absolute fallacy. Mythic raiders on average are 8-10 I lvls higher than heroic/Mythic + players
    Thats bullshit and you know it.

    The inflation in the numbers was the exact reason why Blizzard HAD to increase the damage and health of bosses in mythic NH to tune them to the unexpected increase in ilvl inflation.

    My guild runs an alt heroic raid every week, and guess what the average ilvl of them are? yeah 910+ if that isnt fucking stupid then i dont know what is.

  15. #195
    I think they just need to do away with wf/tf and make gear/ilvl a very accurate representation of the content you run. The idea behind thunderforging existed in a time without catchup mechanisms in place, and thunderforging was a way to inflate power level so guilds could clear content. AP fills this niche now and there's currently no reason to have WF/TF in the game, other than to needlessly reward players for doing content that may or may not be entirely trivial for them.

    WF/TF artifically breaks gear plateaues, and I consider this a bad thing, as you can usually tell what level of player you are based on your overall ilvl, but WF/TF broke that method of determining a player's ability.

  16. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zackie View Post
    If they don't think it's a problem why do they keep nerfing items when a new tier releases? Gul'dan trinket getting nerfed. Tier bonuses getting nerfed. They said several times that they don't like old content items to remain bis. But of course they keep going for band-aid fixes (manually nerfing each item) instead of going for the one move which will fix the problem permanently, cap titanforging on the above tier/difficulty ilvl.

    As for your wet wish to remove mythic raiding, part of me hopes it happens one day because maybe then people like you would realise what a sorry state the game would be in.
    It's because they buff trinkets in each raid to make them more appealing than the prior raid or dungeons. So when a new tier is released they revert those changes and buff the trinkets for the current tier instead. They don't want people to be forced to run old content because a specific trinket is hands down better.

    It's like when people would farm for the Shard of Woe from Sinestra 2 tiers later until it was finally nerfed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tradu View Post
    It literally doesn't matter what it was advertised as, and if it was designed as an alternative then it clearly failed. All that matters is what it actually is in the live game.
    It's a 100% alternative to raiding. You continue to progress your character through gear and rising difficulty. You only lack the Raid Tier sets which are exclusive to raiding. If whackdoodles farm it 24/7 in Mythic guilds to get that perfect itemization it doesn't change how the system is working for those who don't raid.
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  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    My interpretation was more based on Jaylock, who has years of history posting about how everyone who raids heroic (now mythic) deserves to have everything better than everyone else and it's so terrible that someone else can get similar gear because it takes away that person's personal achievements.



    You're absolutely right, that does devalue the gear. We have the same issue in heroic, some of my pieces weren't replaced because normal TF/WF gear exceeded or reached the same limit. I got a 905 ring from normal Tich, for instance, and an 890 tier chest from normal Krosus before we did them on heroic only to get the same or lower.

    Well then, if thats what you're interpretation was regarding, then you get a genuine apology that I seem to myself, have badly interpreted what you said. Given you're a Mod, you'd know if someone is a regular suspect on troll/bait/hype posts. My mistake!

  18. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tharkkun View Post
    It's because they buff trinkets in each raid to make them more appealing than the prior raid or dungeons. So when a new tier is released they revert those changes and buff the trinkets for the current tier instead. They don't want people to be forced to run old content because a specific trinket is hands down better.

    It's like when people would farm for the Shard of Woe from Sinestra 2 tiers later until it was finally nerfed.
    I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say. Are you reaffirming my point? Yes, every time a new tier comes they have to go out of their way to make previous items irrelevant. And titanforging magnifies this problem since all previous items can titanforge even higher since the ilvl cap increases.

    You say yourself correctly that they don't want people to be forced to run old content but titanforging forces people to do exactly that.

  19. #199
    No, because as a retired raider I still like to compete in PvP and M+

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by Taladendren View Post
    Emphasis on reasonable. The point isn't that "plebs" shouldn't have mythic gear. The point is that as you progress through mythic and heroic, you should be able to feel your character making some steady progress...
    From my experience it is only mythic raiders who really wants this steady progress with no surprises and i can understand why from their perspective. But... I like to "win the jackpot" sometimes. A little RNG (a little!) is not a buzzkill for me and i think a lot of casuals feel the same way. Blizzard cannot design all aspects of the game around the top 10 % elite.

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