View Poll Results: Tinkers as the next class?

Voters
937. This poll is closed
  • Yes - If done correctly

    330 35.22%
  • No - Tinkers make no sense

    340 36.29%
  • Maybe - If done correctly

    122 13.02%
  • Other - Stated below

    15 1.60%
  • Don't give a fuck either way

    130 13.87%
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  1. #501
    Banned -Joker-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    No. Your words. 100% your words.

    You are making a very idiotic misrepresentation of my entire arguments. At no point I ever said I "dislike tinkers" because I don't like gnomes or goblins. Hell, I never even said that I dislike tinkers!
    The fact that you are resorting to insults tells me even you don't believe what you are saying anymore, and have already lost in this discussion. As for not liking Tinkers in WoW, you kinda set the bar for that one yourself:


    Next time you want to win an argument, try addressing the argument, and not attacking the person doing the arguing.

  2. #502
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by God Among Men View Post
    The fact that you are resorting to insults tells me even you don't believe what you are saying anymore, and have already lost in this discussion. As for not liking Tinkers in WoW, you kinda set the bar for that one yourself:

    Next time you want to win an argument, try addressing the argument, and not attacking the person doing the arguing.
    Could you please stop with the blatant dishonesty? First off, what's the poll's question? Is it "do you like tinkers"? No, it's not. It's "tinkers as the next class". It has nothing to do if you like or dislike the class.

    Second, look at the option I picked. What does it say? Does it say "No - I don't like tinkers"? No, it says: "No - Tinkers make no sense." You can like something but still think said something doesn't make sense in a given scenario. I mean, I love druids. But they would make no freaking sense outside medieval fantasy games.

    Third, time and again I've stated that my issue with the concept is that, lore-wise, there is no difference at all between a tinker and engineer, and therefore would make no sense to add it into the game without either severely gutting the profession or removing it entirely.

    Fourth, at no point I attacked you. I called your argument idiotic, not you. But, if the shoe fits, not my fault.

    Good day.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  3. #503
    As far as races go, the only ones that don't seem to be good matches are NE, Worgen, Pandaren, BE, Tauren, and Troll. Keep in mind, Gnomes and Goblins can all make the inventions, but all races have the aptitude to make use of them. I only mention the above ones because those are races that are more magical, nature, or spirit based races that tend to put emphasis on those things specifically.
    I have to add, not sure it's such a great idea to do a new class right now when Blizz has issues balancing the classes they have now.
    I don't see huge mechanical super suits as it would be too big for the screen (especially on Draenai), but I can see normal sized armor but with techno designs (spinning cogs, power lines, etc). Weapons would range from guns to crossbows (range dps spec and even healing, and gives another class that uses these types of weapons) to mechanized looking fist weapons or swords/maces.
    Moving on, for the specs I could see a tank, healer, and ranged dps; but, I have to leave out melee because the game is already overflowing with them. Tanks would use the aforementioned weapons such as the fists or sword/mace combo (gives another DW tank), while the other 2 specs would use a combination of a guns/xbows/beam looking staves. The attack effects could easily look like channeling a beam or shooting mechanical bolts, mechanical bombs, missiles, etc from the range style weapons.
    Melee could be cool, but as stated, there are too many already.

  4. #504
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    While that idea sounds cool on paper, if you stop to think about it, it can sound either very OP or very broken, depending on the situation. I mean, as a tank, it would be akin to giving tanks a second life. Mech dies, step back, shoot until you can call another mech. That's quite OP as it saves a battle-rez for someone else. But if you cannot recall your mech while in a fight, then it's broken because your group is now effectively minus one tank for the rest of the fight. Then there's the fact that it'd take basically double the effort to balance, since the class becomes 'two in one' per spec.

    If I recall correctly, I do believe Jeff Kaplan said that the only reason Overwatch has D.Va is because the team fell in love with the character, otherwise she wouldn't have been implemented as she is, by far, the hardest hero to balance, and the one more prone to 'break' and bug out, due to effectively being 'two-in-one'.
    Could avoid that imbalance by simply having the tank spec share the same health as the mech (a la Druids). Conversely, the pilot could suffer significant damage upon ejection, and there's a balanced cool down till they can resummon a mech.

  5. #505
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    As opposed to tanks? There are more significantly more tank specs per raid spot than melee, ranged or healer specs.
    5 tanks vs what, 15 melee, 11 ranged, 5 heals? Yeah, I'd say that's a pretty fair opposition.

  6. #506
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Could avoid that imbalance by simply having the tank spec share the same health as the mech (a la Druids).
    I assume you mean having the pilot and the mech share the same health pool. Wouldn't that mean that, if the mech dies, so does the pilot? On that same token, having the two possess the same health, and assuming the mech "dies" when the character's health reaches a low percentage (say, 15% hp remaining), wouldn't that mean that the pilot has as much life as a tank when healed to full, which, in turn, kind of defeat the idea of having a mech in the first place, since the pilot is riding the mech because they're strong enough to fight on its own?
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  7. #507
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I assume you mean having the pilot and the mech share the same health pool. Wouldn't that mean that, if the mech dies, so does the pilot? On that same token, having the two possess the same health, and assuming the mech "dies" when the character's health reaches a low percentage (say, 15% hp remaining), wouldn't that mean that the pilot has as much life as a tank when healed to full, which, in turn, kind of defeat the idea of having a mech in the first place, since the pilot is riding the mech because they're strong enough to fight on its own?
    Okay, so what about the second option I mentioned; Pilot ejects from destroyed mech, has significantly reduced armor and has to survive long enough in order to resummon the mech?

  8. #508
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I assume you mean having the pilot and the mech share the same health pool. Wouldn't that mean that, if the mech dies, so does the pilot? On that same token, having the two possess the same health, and assuming the mech "dies" when the character's health reaches a low percentage (say, 15% hp remaining), wouldn't that mean that the pilot has as much life as a tank when healed to full, which, in turn, kind of defeat the idea of having a mech in the first place, since the pilot is riding the mech because they're strong enough to fight on its own?
    *Shrug* Same happens when you're taking damage on a mount. You're in a sky golem, the sky golem takes damage = you take damage. You're in the sky golem and you get healed = sky golem gets healed.

    Does it defeat the purpose of being in a mech? Well the mech makes you move faster, shoot better weapons and possibly provide a bit of defense; otherwise it works like every other mechanic in the game that doesn't need sophisticated explanation. You're technically healing the mech that protects the pilot. Lore-wise, healing a mech suit is no different than healing a Hunter's mechanical pet with magic spells. It doesn't need to make sense to work in the game.

    The only alternative is treating the mech like a Vehicle, but that be difficult to balance a class around. It's not worth compromising proven game mechanics by using a vehicle system that effectively does the same thing all while complicating class balance.

    If we're specifically talking about 'what makes sense', then we need to figure out where the boundaries lie in common sense in videogames. What is acceptable, what is unacceptable. IMO, common sense needs to stay out of game mechanics and game design, thus 'Tinkers makes no sense' is a loaded option since nothing in the game makes sense. There are no boundaries between armor, mech suits or mounts that we can use as a frame of reference for what makes sense. If epic Cloth can provide more armor than common Plate armor, we're already throwing common sense out the window in favour of game mechanics.

    A Holy Paladin in Plate is unable to tank while his Prot counterpart wearing the same gear can. To answer 'Why does Tinker Pilot need a Mech if he can tank himself?', I point out here why a Holy Paladin wears Plate when they don't tank nor have better survival mechanics than their clothy counterparts. "Because they can." It doesn't need to make sense to work.
    Last edited by Thimagryn; 2017-05-26 at 07:41 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    "Real" Demon Hunters don't work as a class in modern WoW
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Please point out to me the player Demon Hunter who has Meta.

  9. #509
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Okay, so what about the second option I mentioned; Pilot ejects from destroyed mech, has significantly reduced armor and has to survive long enough in order to resummon the mech?
    Then we go back to my previous point: we lose a tank that we cannot battle-rez because said tank has been reduced into an extremely weakened character that needs to be kept alive at all costs. =/

    Right now, a tank dies, and can be brought back up (to full health too) in a single second. That would put the tech tank at a disadvantage.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    *Shrug* Same happens when you're taking damage on a mount. You're in a sky golem, the sky golem takes damage = you take damage. You're in the sky golem and you get healed = sky golem gets healed.

    Does it defeat the purpose of being in a mech? Well the mech makes you move faster, shoot better weapons and possibly provide a bit of defense; otherwise it works like every other mechanic in the game that doesn't need sophisticated explanation. You're technically healing the mech that protects the pilot. Lore-wise, healing a mech suit is no different than healing a Hunter's mechanical pet with magic spells. It doesn't need to make sense to work in the game.
    My main contention with the mech/pilot thing is that, as a tank, it can easily be a detriment because, like i said, a tank dies, a second later, he's back up, thanks to a quick battle-rez. In the case of the mech... that doesn't happen. We end up with a weakened pilot, not able to do even half of what they could while in their mech, having to survive long enough to be able to call in a new mech, forcing the other tank to have to hold the boss longer than he should... and sometimes, longer than he could.

    If we're specifically talking about 'what makes sense', then we need to figure out where the boundaries lie in common sense in videogames. What is acceptable, what is unacceptable. IMO, common sense needs to stay out of game mechanics and game design, thus 'Tinkers makes no sense' is a loaded option since nothing in the game makes sense. There are no boundaries between armor, mech suits or mounts that we can use as a frame of reference for what makes sense. If epic Cloth can provide more armor than common Plate armor, we're already throwing common sense out the window in favour of game mechanics.
    Game mechanics don't really have to make sense in terms of real world comparison, and they rarely do. I mean, running non-stop, from Silvermoon to Booty Bay, while carrying five big backpacks, all full of lead, and not even work a sweat? That doesn't make sense. However, I imagine I've always been clear that, when I say "it doesn't make sense", I'm always talking from a lore perspective, or from game balance perspective.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  10. #510
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    as long as the engineering proffesion exists tinkers will NEVER be added, now stop f**king asking for it

  11. #511
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Then we go back to my previous point: we lose a tank that we cannot battle-rez because said tank has been reduced into an extremely weakened character that needs to be kept alive at all costs. =/

    Right now, a tank dies, and can be brought back up (to full health too) in a single second. That would put the tech tank at a disadvantage.
    Then have it work exactly like Druid tanks. Bear form=Mech form, caster form=pilot. Simple, proven game mechanics.

    Lore-wise you can just say that the pilot died in the mech's explosion. A rezzed pilot would summon a new mech the same way a druid shifts back into animal form.

  12. #512
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    My main contention with the mech/pilot thing is that, as a tank, it can easily be a detriment because, like i said, a tank dies, a second later, he's back up, thanks to a quick battle-rez. In the case of the mech... that doesn't happen. We end up with a weakened pilot, not able to do even half of what they could while in their mech, having to survive long enough to be able to call in a new mech, forcing the other tank to have to hold the boss longer than he should... and sometimes, longer than he could.
    That's a leap of logic that only exists when tryng to explain game mechanics with class fantasy. No different than 'DK's are bad tanks if holy spells hurt them' or "Druids are bad tanks if they lose their concentration and get caught up in their primal forms, attacking allies like Broll did".

    You bring up good points, but class fantasy is not game mechanics. Game mechanics-wise, a Tank-spec Tinker gets back into mech form the same way a Guardian Druid would after ressing. If mechanics work differently, then Blizzard needs to make sure they work; or else they have to incorporate some bullshit lore explaining effective Tinker tanking outside a mech suit; the way a Demon Hunter can tank outside of their Demon forms.
    Last edited by Thimagryn; 2017-05-26 at 08:04 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    "Real" Demon Hunters don't work as a class in modern WoW
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Please point out to me the player Demon Hunter who has Meta.

  13. #513
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    That's a leap of logic that only exists when tryng to explain game mechanics with class fantasy. No different than 'DK's are bad tanks if holy spells hurt them' or "Druids are bad tanks if they lose their concentration and get caught up in their primal forms, attacking allies like Broll did".
    I really don't see where you're taking this from, considering the idea being discussed is that the tinker, instead of actually dying, is ejected out of their mech and have to survive long enough to call another mech to pilot.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Then have it work exactly like Druid tanks. Bear form=Mech form, caster form=pilot. Simple, proven game mechanics.

    Lore-wise you can just say that the pilot died in the mech's explosion. A rezzed pilot would summon a new mech the same way a druid shifts back into animal form.
    So we're scrapping the idea that, instead of dying, the pilot ejects? Ok, I'm cool with this.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  14. #514
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiradyn View Post
    Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but how are you certain they could be different from hunters?
    The only hunters that could be affected are the MM hunter.BM is focused in their pets, which Tinkers have nothing to do, and Survival has nothing to do with the techonoly Tinkers would use.

    However, Tinkers Range would probably be about explosives, missilies, Flamethrowers, eletricity, Shoot bombs and so on, more about the ammunition you shoot instead of the MM way of how you shoot.

  15. #515
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I really don't see where you're taking this from, considering the idea being discussed is that the tinker, instead of actually dying, is ejected out of their mech and have to survive long enough to call another mech to pilot.
    If that's the case instead of a Tinker actually dying, then you're looking at a similar situation to Pet Tanking. ie- it's an unrealistic expectation for proper tanking.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    "Real" Demon Hunters don't work as a class in modern WoW
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Please point out to me the player Demon Hunter who has Meta.

  16. #516
    How do these threads keep popping up lol, let it die kids

    Quote Originally Posted by Simulatio View Post
    A handful of people nut-busting about it on various forums does not equal popularity, and popularity does not equal good design.

  17. #517
    Quote Originally Posted by valsharia View Post
    as long as the engineering proffesion exists tinkers will NEVER be added, now stop f**king asking for it
    Meh.

    Warlocks didn't stop Demon Hunters from entering the game. I doubt a profession is going to stop a tinker class from entering the game.

  18. #518
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BedlamBros View Post
    Meh.

    Warlocks didn't stop Demon Hunters from entering the game. I doubt a profession is going to stop a tinker class from entering the game.
    Demon Hunters and Warlocks are only very lightly related in the lore. However, the 'tinker' class and the engineer profession, in the lore, are one and the same. That is the main issue.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  19. #519
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Demon Hunters and Warlocks are only very lightly related in the lore. However, the 'tinker' class and the engineer profession, in the lore, are one and the same. That is the main issue.
    Except that,for example, a Hunter Engineer Still fights like a Hunter.He can shoot a couple missiles but so does everyone else that buy one.

    A Tinker fights with machines and techonology as their MAIN weapon

  20. #520
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darktbs View Post
    Except that,for example, a Hunter Engineer Still fights like a Hunter.He can shoot a couple missiles but so does everyone else that buy one.

    A Tinker fights with machines and techonology as their MAIN weapon
    ... You're thinking in solely gameplay terms. I'm talking about how it is in the lore. I even specifically wrote 'in the lore', not once, but twice, just in the quote in your post.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

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