Tinkers In Our Future?

[Jaylock]

Demon Hunters and Warlocks are only very lightly related in the lore. However, the 'tinker' class and the engineer profession, in the lore, are one and the same. That is the main issue.

How do you explain High Tinker Mekatork then?

[Ielenia]

How do you explain High Tinker Mekatork then?

Explain what about him, exactly? He's an accomplished engineer, I thought that was obvious?

[Teriz]

Demon Hunters and Warlocks are only very lightly related in the lore. However, the 'tinker' class and the engineer profession, in the lore, are one and the same. That is the main issue.

If the engineering profession were lore (i.e. various races are capable of building high tech devices), wouldnt we see the various races of Azeroth be a bit more technologically advanced than they are now?

Classes have a definitive effect on the lore. I have yet to see any long-term effects of all this engineering going on among the non-Gnome/Goblin races. Everyone appears stuck exactly where they were technologically since vanilla.

[Jaylock]

Explain what about him, exactly? He's an accomplished engineer, I thought that was obvious?

Hes a Tinker, we have another Tinker in HOTS who uses a goblin tinker suit. They are real, they dawn suits of armor, they can very easily be incorporated as a class

[Darktbs]

... You're thinking in solely gameplay terms. I'm talking about how it is in the lore. I even specifically wrote 'in the lore', not once, but twice, just in the quote in your post.

Your comparison its like comparing a Mage to a Archmage.

They do, in a nutshell, the same thing but one is better than the other.

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Hes a Tinker, we have another Tinker in HOTS who uses a goblin tinker suit. They are real, they dawn suits of armor, they can very easily be incorporated as a class

Not easily, but they can.

[Ielenia]

If the engineering profession were lore (i.e. various races are capable of building high tech devices), wouldnt we see the various races of Azeroth be a bit more technologically advanced than they are now?

So... aren't they? Stormwind is connected to Ironforge through a large, mechanical tram system. The Alliance has tanks and airplanes in their military, not to mention a giant flying ship or two. The Horde also has (or had) a few flying ships with some advanced cannons.

Classes have a definitive effect on the lore. I have yet to see any long-term effects of all this engineering going on among the non-Gnome/Goblin races. Everyone appears stuck exactly where they were technologically since vanilla.

I'll once again show you the other side of the coin: what advances in the spellcasting field can we see within the gnome society, since WoW began? Nothing, right? I mean, that goes for all races, right? Every city is still the very same, from beginning to end, never leaning more or less toward either spellcasting or technology.

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Hes a Tinker, we have another Tinker in HOTS who uses a goblin tinker suit.

HotS is not exactly canon with any of the Blizzard games it pulls characters from, remember? As for the "he is a tinker" line... no. His political title is 'High Tinker', which is basically the gnome equivalent of 'King'. Gelbin is an engineer. Also, a reminder: NPCs don't necessarily need to perfectly represent player classes. I mean, Tyrande is a priestess, but what player priest can wield a bow and cast balance druid spells?

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Your comparison its like comparing a Mage to a Archmage.

They do, in a nutshell, the same thing but one is better than the other.

Considering 'Archmages' are NPCs, and we are just mages, then we got the current status quo as the correct one. The Order Hall title is meaningless in that regard, because, other than acquiring a powerful artifact, our personal power doesn't increase, much. Not to the level of other Archmages currently in existing. And if the title does matter, then it again becomes moot since in this case it becomes just a title, not a measure of power.

[Teriz]

So... aren't they? Stormwind is connected to Ironforge through a large, mechanical tram system. The Alliance has tanks and airplanes in their military, not to mention a giant flying ship or two. The Horde also has (or had) a few flying ships with some advanced cannons.

The tram system has been in Stormwind since Vanilla, and it was designed by Gnomes and built by Dwarves. That relationship has been in place since Vanilla. The Orc airship is also designed by Goblins, and if you notice, the airships that come in and out of Orgrimmar are also piloted by Goblins. Goblins have been established Zepplin makers since WC2.

Again, nothing's changed.

I'll once again show you the other side of the coin: what advances in the spellcasting field can we see within the gnome society, since WoW began? Nothing, right? I mean, that goes for all races, right? Every city is still the very same, from beginning to end, never leaning more or less toward either spellcasting or technology.

Gnomes have advanced in magic just as much as the other races. Gnomish mages are supposedly just as powerful as any other mage race.

[Huntaer]

Only if it's Gnomes and Goblins only!

[Ielenia]

The tram system has been in Stormwind since Vanilla, and it was designed by Gnomes and built by Dwarves. That relationship has been in place since Vanilla. The Orc airship is also designed by Goblins, and if you notice, the airships that come in and out of Orgrimmar are also piloted by Goblins. Goblins have been established Zepplin makers since WC2.

Again, nothing's changed.

It just proves the point that those races are not only not against using technology and are quite comfortable employing them.

Gnomes have advanced in magic just as much as the other races. Gnomish mages are supposedly just as powerful as any other mage race.

That's the whole point: said magic affinity is not shown anywhere at all in their society, is it? There's nothing about magic when you visit a gnome town or settlement, it's pure technology. That said, even if we don't see anything too technological in their cities, doesn't mean individuals of other races can't be just as good engineers as gnomes and goblins.

[Teriz]

It just proves the point that those races are not only not against using technology and are quite comfortable employing them.

But that wasn't the point. The point was that non-Goblin/Gnome tech hasn't evolved since Vanilla WoW. Again if Engineering is everywhere and being utilized by every race as the Engineering profession shows, then why aren't the other societies transforming into more modern cities? Why aren't they building advanced robots and other machines?

That's the whole point: said magic affinity is not shown anywhere at all in their society, is it? There's nothing about magic when you visit a gnome town or settlement, it's pure technology. That said, even if we don't see anything too technological in their cities, doesn't mean individuals of other races can't be just as good engineers as gnomes and goblins.

That's not really a fair comparison, since their main city is currently occupied by hostile forces, and they're regulated to nothing more than an outpost outside of Ironforge. Before that, they were actually in a wing of Ironforge. No doubt when the Gnomes recapture Gnomeregan, they'll have a magical district just like you see in Stormwind and Ironforge.

[Ielenia]

But that wasn't the point. The point was that non-Goblin/Gnome tech hasn't evolved since Vanilla WoW. Again if Engineering is everywhere and being utilized by every race as the Engineering profession shows, then why aren't the other societies transforming into more modern cities?

You cannot assert as fact something you cannot show actual physical evidence of. So you cannot assert as fact that the engineering skills of the other races have not improved, unless you show me a developer post, an in-game description, etc, anything that states that their skills did not evolve at all.

That's not really a fair comparison, since their main city is currently occupied by hostile forces, and they're regulated to nothing more than an outpost outside of Ironforge.

The goblin city of Kezan housed mages, warlocks and priests... but it was 100% technology. So is their big city they built at Azshara's shore. Horde Goblin settlements like the one in Krasarang in MoP, the town atop a mountain in Twilight Highlands, etc, are all 100% technology.

As for the gnomes: Millhouse Manastorm was a stowaway in the Naaru vessel 'The Arcatraz', and he was already an accomplished mage. The Alliance invaded Outland during Warcraft 2, and the trogg invasion of Gnomeregan happened after Warcraft 3, after the Burning Legion invasion. So, we have evidence of gnomes already being accomplished mages prior to the trogg invasion. Ergo, by your logic, there should be a section of Gnomeregan dedicated to magic. Yet there isn't. Nor there is anything about magic in any of the other gnome settlements, no matter how big or how small, despite them all being 100% technology.

In short, this is an argument you can't win. If you insist that, just because we don't see the other races filling their cities with technology means they cannot be part of a tech class race list, then, by that logic, gnome and goblin spellcasters should not exist as well, because their cities and settlement show nothing about magic.

[Teriz]

You cannot assert as fact something you cannot show actual physical evidence of. So you cannot assert as fact that the engineering skills of the other races have not improved, unless you show me a developer post, an in-game description, etc, anything that states that their skills did not evolve at all.

The physical evidence is the cities and level of technology produced by the races of those cities. If all the high-tech stuff in Stormwind is built by Gnomes and Dwarves, then its safe to assume that humans don't produce any native technology, and rely exclusively on Gnomes and Dwarves to build their machines.

Why would a developer post about something that never existed in the first place?

The goblin city of Kezan housed mages, warlocks and priests... but it was 100% technology. So is their big city they built at Azshara's shore. Horde Goblin settlements like the one in Krasarang in MoP, the town atop a mountain in Twilight Highlands, etc, are all 100% technology.

As for the gnomes: Millhouse Manastorm was a stowaway in the Naaru vessel 'The Arcatraz', and he was already an accomplished mage. The Alliance invaded Outland during Warcraft 2, and the trogg invasion of Gnomeregan happened after Warcraft 3, after the Burning Legion invasion. So, we have evidence of gnomes already being accomplished mages prior to the trogg invasion. Ergo, by your logic, there should be a section of Gnomeregan dedicated to magic. Yet there isn't. Nor there is anything about magic in any of the other gnome settlements, no matter how big or how small, despite them all being 100% technology.

In short, this is an argument you can't win. If you insist that, just because we don't see the other races filling their cities with technology means they cannot be part of a tech class race list, then, by that logic, gnome and goblin spellcasters should not exist as well, because their cities and settlement show nothing about magic.

Gnomeregan is currently a dungeon, so obviously its not going to have the standard wards of a faction city. My point is that if (if EVER) Gnomes retake the city, you'll see different wards pop up like you do in any faction city. You don't see that in Tinkertown currently because it's a tiny outpost.

Finally the argument isn't about what races can be Tinkers, I'm pointing out that the engineering profession isn't lore because it's never shown an impact on the lore of the game. All its ever been is an activity that players can engage in to sink some time.

[Ielenia]

The physical evidence is the cities and level of technology produced by the races of those cities.

That's not evidence. Again, just because you don't see technology around doesn't necessarily mean they're behind, technologically speaking.

Why would a developer post about something that never existed in the first place?

Exactly because we don't know if it exists or not.

Gnomeregan is currently a dungeon, so obviously its not going to have the standard wards of a faction city. My point is that if (if EVER) Gnomes retake the city, you'll see different wards pop up like you do in any faction city. You don't see that in Tinkertown currently because it's a tiny outpost.

That's irrelevant. The point is: it was a capital city in the past, and while it was a capital city, gnome spellcasters already existed. That's a proven fact. But there is no area in the Gnomeregan zone dedicated to magic. Same thing with the goblin's city, both Kezan and the new one they built at the shore of Azshara.

Finally the argument isn't about what races can be Tinkers,

It has always been that argument. Otherwise you wouldn't be opposing to the idea of human and orcs being tinker as well.

I'm pointing out that the engineering profession isn't lore because it's never shown an impact on the lore of the game.

Two things: first, you have not shown anything to conclude it's not part of the lore other than your own desire for it to be excluded. Second, with that reason of yours, then neither do classes, because, no matter what class our characters are, it has never shown an impact an impact on the lore of the game. You don't get a different ending at Hellfire Citadel if you're a rogue or a priest. You don't get a different ending to Siege of Orgrimmar if you're a monk or a mage. You don't get a different ending at the end of Icecrown Citadel if you're a DK or a paladin.

[Polygons]

I'd much rather see a new cloth class

[Darktbs]

Considering 'Archmages' are NPCs, and we are just mages, then we got the current status quo as the correct one. The Order Hall title is meaningless in that regard, because, other than acquiring a powerful artifact, our personal power doesn't increase, much. Not to the level of other Archmages currently in existing. And if the title does matter, then it again becomes moot since in this case it becomes just a title, not a measure of power.

You tell me you're arguing based on Lore, i answered based on lore and then you answer me with Gameplay.

A Tinker is not only a better Engineer but he knows how to fight in the battlefield using his/her techonology.

Its like saying a Common Mage is the same as a Archmage despite the latter be much stronger, smarter and powerfull.

Gameplay wise:Tinkers ARE NOT ENGINEERS, Why?

You can't go to a BG and kill someone with mini robots or a Mech.

You can't Tank with a Mech or deal competitive Dps.

Engineering don't have specs or Rotations

Now, the people that say we can't have Tinkers because of Engineering. tell me:

Does the proc of http://www.wowhead.com/item=129101/alphas-paw#comments make my Rogue a BM Hunter?

Does http://www.wowhead.com/item=118936/m...f-void-calling make my Dk a Warlock?

No, this classes have specs, rotations, spells, talents, race restriction, animations and lore behind them.

So why would a class not be possible only because there is a profession that doesn't interfere in any shape or form with the idea?

[Ielenia]

You tell me you're arguing based on Lore, i answered based on lore and then you answer me with Gameplay.

I did say 'npcs', but I didn't use it a gameplay form. I used 'NPCs' to more easily differentiate the kind of character who holds more power than our characters. For example, Archmage Modera is a better mage than a player mage. Archmage Khadgar is also better than a mage player. Yes, the player mage can also hold the title 'archmage', but it feels much more like a honorary title than a real title. After all, our power is not any closer to the power of Archmage Modera or Khadgar. In the end, they're just that: titles.

Your assertion that 'tinkers' are 'more experienced combat engineers' doesn't really work, as well, because, following your assertion about mages and archmages, one is the player character (engineer), and the other is the aspiration (tinker). And yet... when they start their journey they are already called 'tinkers'... that'd be like a man graduating from 'apprentice mage' straight to 'archmage'...

As for the rest of your post, it focuses solely on gameplay, so I skipped it.

[Teriz]

That's not evidence. Again, just because you don't see technology around doesn't necessarily mean they're behind, technologically speaking.

Again, I DO see technology around, and its not very advanced.

Exactly because we don't know if it exists or not.

If its nowhere in the game after all of this time, it doesn't exist.

That's irrelevant. The point is: it was a capital city in the past, and while it was a capital city, gnome spellcasters already existed. That's a proven fact. But there is no area in the Gnomeregan zone dedicated to magic. Same thing with the goblin's city, both Kezan and the new one they built at the shore of Azshara.

That would be because Gnomeregan was designed by the WoW crew as a dungeon, not a racial hub. Kezan was designed as an introductory zone you messed around in before the Cataclysm. Azshara is another outpost instead of a full city. Make a true Goblin and/or Gnome city, and you'll see a hub for mages.

It has always been that argument. Otherwise you wouldn't be opposing to the idea of human and orcs being tinker as well.

I'm not opposed to it. I simply think the concept would be stronger if less races are available for a potential class.

Two things: first, you have not shown anything to conclude it's not part of the lore other than your own desire for it to be excluded. Second, with that reason of yours, then neither do classes, because, no matter what class our characters are, it has never shown an impact an impact on the lore of the game. You don't get a different ending at Hellfire Citadel if you're a rogue or a priest. You don't get a different ending to Siege of Orgrimmar if you're a monk or a mage. You don't get a different ending at the end of Icecrown Citadel if you're a DK or a paladin.

No, but we get stuff like Death Knights battling for control of Andorhol, or Druids revitalizing the Western Plaguelands. That's how the classes can impact the lore of the game. Based on current lore, it would appear that Gnomes and Goblins still have a solid monopoly on technology among the playable races (The Alliance and Horde airships, Helix Blackfuse repurposing titan tech, The Iron Star, the Iron Horde, the Mekkatorque suit, Goblins and Gnomes automatically getting mechanical pets w/o a quest, etc.), and I see no counter evidence to believe otherwise.

[Ielenia]

Again, I DO see technology around, and its not very advanced.

Right. So we proved the point that other races are not adverse to technology and have no problem using it. Now going by the assumption that the other races don't suffer some sort of mental defect, as a whole, that severely impairs their creative ability, that means if, say, a human takes a much greater interest into technology than what is expected from a human, then said human could learn engineering to a level that could rival gnome engineers. I mean, that's how basic logic works, right?

If its nowhere in the game after all of this time, it doesn't exist.

The continent of Pandaria did not "exist" anywhere in the game for eight years. Now it does. Deepholm did not "exist" anywhere in the game for six years. Now it does. The Nightborne race did not "exist" anywhere in the game for twelve years. Now it does. You see how that argument of yours doesn't hold water?

Also, I'll repeat for you, again: absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. What it means is that just because you can't see it, it does not mean it doesn't exist.

That would be because Gnomeregan was designed by the WoW crew as a dungeon, not a racial hub. Kezan was designed as an introductory zone you messed around in before the Cataclysm. Azshara is another outpost instead of a full city. Make a true Goblin and/or Gnome city, and you'll see a hub for mages.

Really? Then why does it have areas like "dormitory", "engineering labs", "tinker's court"... those sound like zones that would fit a 'racial hub' nomenclature for the gnomes. But you're dodging the point: designed as a dungeon or not, it's supposed to have been their home, in the past. Therefore, it should reflect the gnomish culture, and all we see is technology. Nowhere and nothing even coming close to being related to magic. Same thing for the goblins: it's supposed to be a place where the goblins of the Bilgewater Cartel have been living for quite some time, so it should reflect their culture. But, again, nothing about spellcasters, there. That's the point. It doesn't matter if it's 'just an introductory zone', or would you be ok if they used, for example, buildings like the humans? After all, it's "just an introductory zone you messed around before the cataclysm".

I'm not opposed to it. I simply think the concept would be stronger if less races are available for a potential class.

And it has been explained countless times that the concept would most likely not be stronger if it was restricted to just gnomes and goblins, two of the three least played race in the whole game. The races' unpopularity are much more likely to hurt the class more than the class' popularity would help those two races.

No, but we get stuff like Death Knights battling for control of Andorhol, or Druids revitalizing the Western Plaguelands. That's how the classes can impact the lore of the game.

How about the countless other times where you had to fetch plants or animal bits or any other reagent because this or that character needed it to brew a potion? How about at Scholazar Basin where you help an engineer rebuild a gyrocopter you can later use as a flight taxi point? How many times have a Horde player helped a forsaken apothecary in brewing something nasty?

Based on current lore, it would appear that Gnomes and Goblins still have a solid monopoly on technology among the playable races, and I see no counter evidence to believe otherwise.

Humans, forsaken and dwarven engineer NPCs disprove your claim. If they did have a monopoly, there wouldn't be engineers of any other race.

[Teriz]

Right. So we proved the point that other races are not adverse to technology and have no problem using it. Now going by the assumption that the other races don't suffer some sort of mental defect, as a whole, that severely impairs their creative ability, that means if, say, a human takes a much greater interest into technology than what is expected from a human, then said human could learn engineering to a level that could rival gnome engineers. I mean, that's how basic logic works, right?

Certainly, and it could very well happen. However all the evidence points to the fact that it hasn't happened yet, and based on your belief that Humans have been engaging in heavy engineering since Vanilla, we should be seeing the opposite of what we're seeing in the game. Especially among Humans and Orcs.

The continent of Pandaria did not "exist" anywhere in the game for eight years. Now it does. Deepholm did not "exist" anywhere in the game for six years. Now it does. The Nightborne race did not "exist" anywhere in the game for twelve years. Now it does. You see how that argument of yours doesn't hold water?

We had evidence of Pandaria's existence in WoW before Pandaria:
http://www.wowhead.com/quest=819/chens-empty-keg
http://wow.gamepedia.com/Justin
http://www.wowhead.com/item=49665/pandaren-monk

As for the Nightborne, Blizzard just made them up for Legion. So yeah, they didn't exist until Blizzard created them, just like humans who can build machines on the level of Gnomes and Goblins doesn't exist until Blizzard creates them.

Also, I'll repeat for you, again: absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. What it means is that just because you can't see it, it does not mean it doesn't exist.

Again, we have evidence. The problem here is that you don't accept the evidence as actual evidence because it destroys your argument.

Really? Then why does it have areas like "dormitory", "engineering labs", "tinker's court"... those sound like zones that would fit a 'racial hub' nomenclature for the gnomes. But you're dodging the point: designed as a dungeon or not, it's supposed to have been their home, in the past. Therefore, it should reflect the gnomish culture, and all we see is technology. Nowhere and nothing even coming close to being related to magic. Same thing for the goblins: it's supposed to be a place where the goblins of the Bilgewater Cartel have been living for quite some time, so it should reflect their culture. But, again, nothing about spellcasters, there. That's the point. It doesn't matter if it's 'just an introductory zone', or would you be ok if they used, for example, buildings like the humans? After all, it's "just an introductory zone you messed around before the cataclysm".

I'll say it again, Gnomeregan doesn't serve the same purpose as Stormwind, Thunder Bluff, Silvermoon, or other racial capitals, so obviously its not going to have all the features of those locations. In the end though, we have evidence of Goblin and Gnome mages in lore, and those mages effect the lore, so not seeing Mage wards in Goblin and Gnome outposts is a moot point.

And it has been explained countless times that the concept would most likely not be stronger if it was restricted to just gnomes and goblins, two of the three least played race in the whole game. The races' unpopularity are much more likely to hurt the class more than the class' popularity would help those two races.

Perhaps we should give these races a cool class to maybe TRY to make those races more popular?

How about the countless other times where you had to fetch plants or animal bits or any other reagent because this or that character needed it to brew a potion? How about at Scholazar Basin where you help an engineer rebuild a gyrocopter you can later use as a flight taxi point? How many times have a Horde player helped a forsaken apothecary in brewing something nasty?

Where did I say that Alchemists, Engineers, and Apothecaries didn't exist? I'm saying that various races building advanced technology via the player Engineering profession isn't lore because you're NOT seeing various races building advanced technology; They're building the same technology they've been building since the game started.

Humans, forsaken and dwarven engineer NPCs disprove your claim. If they did have a monopoly, there wouldn't be engineers of any other race.

Like i said before, a Forsaken engineer building a chemical wagon is perfectly fine. That is supported by lore, and there's plenty of evidence to support it. A forsaken engineer isn't building robots, lasers, teleportation devices, pilotable mechs, and whatever new schematic is coming out of the engineering profession for the PLAYER to utilize.

[-Joker-]

as long as the engineering proffesion exists tinkers will NEVER be added, now stop f**king asking for it

The same was said about having DKs and Warlocks and that Demon Hunters would never be a thing. I've learned to never say never. Who knew we'd get a whole expac based on ONE panda bear from ONE RTS.