Who are Muslim extremists trying to convince?

[Deleted]

That does not erase the laws or the culture influenced by civic nationalism. Move there? You become american. Move to somewhere like South Korea? You don't become korean to the people there. Be born in USA? Citizenship. Be born in South Korea? You don't get citizenship just from that.

That has nothing to do with "civic nationalism" but with multiculturalism. And now please spare me with your lousy attention whoring.

I am going to ignore your flawed "counter speech just for countering" from this post.

[Dug]

They want to keep provoking the west to keep bombing them and killing innocents in the collateral damage, which further convinces moderates to radicalize and join their cause.

[Freighter]

That has nothing to do with "civic nationalism" but with multiculturalism. And now please spare me with your lousy attention whoring.

It has absolutely nothing to do with multiculturalism. Jus Soli has existed in USA for a loooong time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_nationalism

"In scholarly literature, ethnic nationalism is usually contrasted with civic nationalism. Ethnic nationalism bases membership of the nation on descent or heredity, often articulated in terms of common blood or kinship, rather than on political membership. Hence, nation-states with strong traditions of ethnic nationalism tend to define nationality or citizenship by jus sanguinis (the law of blood, descent from a person of that nationality), and countries with strong traditions of civic nationalism tend to define nationality or citizenship by jus soli (the law of soil, birth within the nation state). Ethnic nationalism is, therefore, seen as exclusive, while civic nationalism tends to be inclusive. Rather than allegiance to common civic ideals and cultural traditions, then, ethnic nationalism tends to emphasise narratives of common descent."

[Deleted]

It has absolutely nothing to do with multiculturalism. Jus Soli has existed in USA for a loooong time.

Actually the source of jus soli in america is based on the idea that immigrants build the country. America wasnt based on civic nationalism, but just on the fact it was a immigration country. Civic nationalism as a stand alone ideology does not work, and always leads to ethnic nationalism, as we see in america all the time. In the early days the settlers killed the indians, and had them as ethnic enemies. Nowadays it is the immigrants which are american nationalists ethnic enemies.

Americas nationalism always was and currently is ethnic nationallism. Plus that they also contradict their own grandfathers nowadays, by making scapegoats out of immigrants.

America never was civic nationalism, as it was built on the backs of black slaves, by killing indians and taking them as ethnic enemies.

[Freighter]

Actually the source of jus soli in america is based on the idea that immigrants build the country. America wasnt based on civic nationalism, but just on the fact it was a immigration country. Civic nationalism as a stand along ideology does not work, and always leas to ethnic nationalism, as we see in america all the time. In the early days the settlers killed the indians, and had them as ethnic enemies. Nowadays it is the immigrants which are american nationalists ethnic enemies.

It is and was based on civic nationalism. That doesn't mean there are no ethnic nationalists residing in USA.

Americas nationalism always was and currently is ethnic nationallism.

... No. Nationalism in USA is by large based on the civic nationalist culture of the country's founders.

[Al Gorefiend]

Trying to see into the mind of terrorists is folly. There isn't one, they don't possess the rationality of a healthy brain or instinctual self-preservation. It's what gets me so angry when they're likened to humans and deserve human rights. We weaken the definition of human as a whole when we include terrorists as being of one

[Deleted]

It is and was based on civic nationalism. That doesn't mean there are no ethnic nationalists residing in USA.

"No it isnt!"

... No. Nationalism in USA is by large based on the civic nationalist culture of the country's founders.

"No it isnt!"

You know, it is a pain do discuss with you. Because if your arguments are running out, the only thing you do is brainless "no it isnt"-comments. Try arguments sometimes, wont you?

Back to my ignore list. As you are not worth to discuss with.

[Freighter]

You know, it is a pain do discuss with you.

It's only a pain if you do not know what the words or terms you use actually mean, something which you have a strong tendency to not know. You also tend to know very little about what you're discussing.

[neocount]

Actually the source of jus soli in america is based on the idea that immigrants build the country. America wasnt based on civic nationalism, but just on the fact it was a immigration country. Civic nationalism as a stand alone ideology does not work, and always leads to ethnic nationalism, as we see in america all the time. In the early days the settlers killed the indians, and had them as ethnic enemies. Nowadays it is the immigrants which are american nationalists ethnic enemies.

Americas nationalism always was and currently is ethnic nationallism. Plus that they also contradict their own grandfathers nowadays, by making scapegoats out of immigrants.

America never was civic nationalism, as it was built on the backs of black slaves, by killing indians and taking them as ethnic enemies.

I cannot speak for everyone, so I'll speak for myself.

I consider myself an American patriot and I believe strongly in American exceptionalism. Immigration is a beautiful thing, when it is done legally and when said immigrants assimilate into the American culture. The United States is a country where the rule of law should be paramount. Some of the most patriotic people I know are immigrants. My parents emigrated from Germany in the 70s because they wanted to be American and to seize of piece of the American dream. They both started businesses here and prospered.

I am against taking in hundreds of thousands of immigrants whom have no intention of becoming citizens or assimilating into our culture. This diminishes the hard work of those that have come here legally, have learned the language, and have a desire to be Americans.

Yes, you are correct, that the history of this country is marred by slavery and the treatment of Native Americans, but no one is perfect. No country is perfect. There is no country in this world that can claim historical purity. Mistakes are made and the fight continues to bring freedom, liberty, and prosperity to not just our country, but the world. I am sorry you see nothing but viciousness when you look at the USA. There are many millions of wonderful, happy, friendly, altruistic people here and it is those people that make America great.

[Kraenen]

Other than the obvious, they're actually trying to convince a lot of self-defeating western liberals that their materialist society has failed them on a spiritual level. These are people who have seen no appeal in christianity (influenced by society's anti-christian rhetoric) but wanted something religious in their life. They also wanted a leader they could respect - their own tribe's leaders have been shamed from day 1. It's a lot easier to convince a xenophile into joining their ranks.

In general they just want theocracy. They want a reactionary return to the good old days of Islam. And this is an objectively bad thing.

[Powerogue]

It surely can't be the victims or their families. And what are they trying to convince us of? What is the point in spreading their [insert god here] by murdering people? Has anyone actually tried to understand their logic or is it completely nonsensical?

Aside from the obvious barbarism I don't think I've ever read anything that touches on the mentality of these people. I know religion is brainwash and these people are afflicted at a young age but what is the end game? Are they really told they get 40 virgins if they suicide bomb or what?

It seems to me that they have no issues corrupting the natives so I don't think that's it.

Well it says in the Qur'an that martyrdom will get you the greatest afterlife and that nonbelievers who refuse to convert are evil and deserve no friendship or sympathy. So they just figure they're eradicating evil people with only positive consequences when they're finally shot for it.

They don't think they're going to convert people so much as kill and replace them.

[Rudkobing]

Their reward system isn't that interesting. Forget that.

[primalmatter]

This thread seems to have people confused...

From the quran point of view those not killing infidels are the extremists while those who are simply are secular Muslims.

The problem here is the west has for the most part distilled its religious beliefs to the point they may as well not exist. What you are seeing now is true faith and that is a force that few are ready to deal with.

[Deleted]

People really need to start learning about Islam and what kind of ideology we are dealing with. The closer you follow the religious texts of the Quran and the Sunna (which is islamic doctrine), the more murderous and hateful you are compelled to be in the name of God. In a sense, establishing the caliphate and killing infidels is the true Islam, by the book. Mohammed was a barbaric, murderous pedophile warlord after all, and in Islam he is considered the perfect human being that all muslims should strive to model. Muslims have been killing infidels for centuries because their God commands them to, it is not something that is going to change as it is the fundamental of their most holy doctrine.

Infracted

[Aquinan]

not really, bad people will have something else.

i mean, the two worst thing that happened in the world, WW1 WW2, was not a religious reason or motivation.

You're ignoring centuries of witch hunts, inquisitions, holy wars, crusades etc.

[Torto]

You will notice that the fanatical parts of the Islamic religion is strongest in the poorest, lowest educated parts of the world. Logic and reason don't come into it.

[Deleted]

You will notice that the fanatical parts of the Islamic religion is strongest in the poorest, lowest educated parts of the world. Logic and reason don't come into it.

Same goes for right wing extremist ideas. The poor will vote someone into office who pretends he will help them while talking about muslims and mexicans as his enemies.

Extremism always adresses the dumb and poor. They help them into power.

[Torto]

Same goes for right wing extremist ideas. The poor will vote someone into office who pretends he will help them while talking about muslims and mexicans as his enemies.

Extremism always adresses the dumb and poor. They help them into power.

Can't argue with that, same can be said of left wing extremist ideas as well.

[Deleted]

Can't argue with that, same can be said of left wing extremist ideas as well.

It can be said about all extremists. Problem is that people often only see the extremists which are against their agenda.

You know what a great thread would have been?

One with the topic "Who are extremists trying to convince?". At the end the answer is always the same, no matter what kind of extremists they are.

[Torto]

It can be said about all extremists. Problem is that people often only see the extremists which are against their agenda.

You know what a great thread would have been?

One with the topic "Who are extremists trying to convince?". At the end the answer is always the same, no matter what kind of extremists they are.

Agreed, but I think the term 'extremist' gets overused in today's political discussions. Many people would label Trump, Le Pen or even Jeremy Corbyn as extremist for their views on immigration or taxation or whatever which is ridiculous. Trump is not calling for the extermination of Muslims, his views are not extremist. People need to tone down some of the rhetoric