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  1. #821
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Then Marvel got even more creative in the 70s...and they went to the wall with just about everything we know today. They blame diversity when they should be blaming the writing and the decisions at the top that refuses to invest in originality.
    You're massively confused. The writing is not any better or worse. Some comics were well written, some weren't. The only difference is they are spreading themselves a little too thin currently.

    They were literally just throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks. Or they were just trying to capitalize on what they thought was cool then. Blacksploitation and Martial Arts flicks are "big" well we gotta capitalize on it!

    Do you honestly believe when they created Wolverine they knew they were sitting on a gold mine? No, he was just a throwaway character in a Hulk comic with a crap yellow(!) costume and a goofy animal name.

    I sometimes wonder how Len Wein managed to stumble upon creating the New X-men (OG SJW TEAM) because his work before or since doesn't really indicate it.

    Good writing is important but let's not forget that writing is often in the service of doing something that's usually very derivative. Still you can take a character with a derivative name (Ms Marvel) and turn her into a well realized character.

  2. #822
    I think its strange that people have to identify with the gender in a story to like it or not. Or the sexuality. I mean if it turned out superman was gay I wouldn't suddenly hate his movies (the one maybe two of them that were good.. just sayin). Female super(wo)man spin offs didn't make me automatically hate the show.

    Just seems dump. I always taught me kids to look up to great people that do great things for the right reasons. Not to check if they have a dick or not before hand and then make a determination.

  3. #823
    You make shit, you get shit on...

  4. #824
    Herald of the Titans
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    It's not diversity as much as oversaturation. The same problem baseball card companies ran into in the late 80's and early 90's. I've been at MegaCon in Orlando this week and there are thousands of fans out there. But there are also countless new artists (many brought in by the popularity of manga/anime), many of those with their own smaller comics. And the big comic companies are pumping out every small variation on existing IP they can think of, often with 3 or 4 color variations of issues for collectors. Plus they are all competing with manga graphic novels. Even in movies I think I counted 6 Marvel/DC movies coming out this year. It's all been a great cash cow in every media form and in merchandise, but there is only so much consumer money out there and eventually it starts to dilute.

  5. #825
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daethz View Post
    Well thanks to them changing iron man into a black teenage girl among the other things theyve been doing, im done with them, their racist anti-white anti-male pandering has ruined that entire industry for me.
    Tony stark is the only iron man, there will never be any more iron mans or iron womans, anything based on iron man that is not tony stark is absolute trash and should be boycotted.
    riri isn't iron man shes iron heart doctor doom is currently iron man so you don' have to worry about your anti white man bullshit because iron man is still a white man. and i'm sure rhodes and march two black man who were iron man disagree with your stupid tony stark is the only real iron man.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by a77 View Post
    Can somady who actually read the comic comment? Do fem-Thor strugel to be worthy? Or they ignore that part for fem-Thor.
    i'm not 100% up to date on fem thor cause i read it when it comes out on marvel unlimited which is behind on releases but this is at-least part of the reason shes worthy.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    And we have a winner. Diversity is fine and all, but make new characters rather than forcing these changes on the old.
    they are almost all new characters.

  6. #826
    Quote Originally Posted by Sicari View Post
    So War Machine is "Absolute Trash"?
    What about poor Iron Lad?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    And we have a winner. Diversity is fine and all, but make new characters rather than forcing these changes on the old.
    Like Riri Williams, Kamala Khan and Miles Morales were all new?

    On the other hand Kaine Parker, Flash Thompson and Doctor Doom were all established characters when they became Scarlet Spider/Venom/Iron Man - why do you think their character development is worse than Ironheart/the new Ms. Marvel/the new Spider-man?

  7. #827
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    And we have a winner. Diversity is fine and all, but make new characters rather than forcing these changes on the old.
    Iron Man, Captain America, Spider-Man, etc are not characters. They are identities that are assumed by characters. Tony Stark, Steve Rogers, and Peter Parker are characters that assumed those identities. James Rhodes, Bucky Barnes, and Miles Morales are also characters that assumed those same identities. The idea of passing on the mantle from one character to another is not a new concept nor is it an exclusively Marvel concept. Dick Grayson and Jean-Paul Valley have both assumed the mantle of Batman, Wally West took over being the Flash after the Death of Barry Allen, Superman had 4 different "brand new" characters replace him when he went into his Coma after fighting Doomsday.
    “The biggest communication problem is we do not listen to understand. We listen to reply,” Stephen Covey.

  8. #828
    Merely a Setback Trassk's Avatar
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    That problem with what marvel is doing right now with its forced diversity, forcing it in a way that they are systematically replacing all long standing characters with diversity swapped 'updates' of old heroes, is they ruin what could be real diversity.

    When you make characters that are characters, who have a strong and appealing back story, then other details like their gender, sexuality, religion, political following, it becomes less important, and so weaves better into the characters narrative.
    This allows for diverse characters to feel like their part of the overall narrative, and the larger picture isn't sacrificed for newer elements.

    For example, I like nightcrawler. I don't care that he became a priest, he was still nightcrawler to me, and he wasn't preaching gospel to the other x-men. This meant his faith was just an aspect of who he was, not a primary.

    But because they've forced diversity so much into marvel now, when everyone is just sick of it and stop buying comics, forcing marvel to reboot everything back to how it was, then any diverse characterization in the future will trigger peoples warning signs of marvel going down this path, even when it gets done by better writers with better narrative.

    You need to do things slowly, gradually, because if its forced you just cause the backlash and it sets things back further.
    Last edited by Trassk; 2017-05-27 at 07:12 PM.
    #boycottchina

  9. #829
    women are ruining Marvel.

  10. #830
    People don't want diversity, they want characters they can relate to. You can have both, but if you try to do the former with no consideration of the latter you'll just alienate your audience.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Having the authority to do a thing doesn't make it just, moral, or even correct.

  11. #831
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    You need to do things slowly, gradually, because if its forced you just cause the backlash and it sets things back further.
    Hi comic shop owner here.

    I've never lost a sale due to "forced diversity". I've lost sales due to shitty writing, shitty art, weird production schedules and over-saturation. Usually its about the money though. Its a little harder to keep up with Batman, X-men and the Avengers when there's 5 of each coming out every month.

    I have exactly two customers who whine about SJW's in comics. One buys Daredevil and puts the #1 issue of almost everything on hold and then doesn't pick it up. The other doesn't buy super hero comics. He is very concerned about how Disney added an Arabic character to Star Wars Force Awakens so they can sell more toys. Said character was portrayed by noted Middle Eastern actor Oscar Isaac. Admittedly they both believe that international banking conspiracies are a bigger threat to the comic industry than SJW's.

  12. #832
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    That problem with what marvel is doing right now with its forced diversity, forcing it in a way that they are systematically replacing all long standing characters with diversity swapped 'updates' of old heroes, is they ruin what could be real diversity.

    When you make characters that are characters, who have a strong and appealing back story, then other details like their gender, sexuality, religion, political following, it becomes less important, and so weaves better into the characters narrative.
    This allows for diverse characters to feel like their part of the overall narrative, and the larger picture isn't sacrificed for newer elements.

    For example, I like nightcrawler. I don't care that he became a priest, he was still nightcrawler to me, and he wasn't preaching gospel to the other x-men. This meant his faith was just an aspect of who he was, not a primary.

    But because they've forced diversity so much into marvel now, when everyone is just sick of it and stop buying comics, forcing marvel to reboot everything back to how it was, then any diverse characterization in the future will trigger peoples warning signs of marvel going down this path, even when it gets done by better writers with better narrative.

    You need to do things slowly, gradually, because if its forced you just cause the backlash and it sets things back further.
    they didn't do things slowly when ever they did stuff like this in the past, why should it matter if tony goes in a coma and some one else becomes iron man but it didn't matter when steve died and some one else became cap?

  13. #833
    women are ruining Marvel!!!!!

  14. #834
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    Quote Originally Posted by DemonHunter18 View Post
    women are ruining Marvel!!!!!
    low quality bait at this point.

  15. #835
    Quote Originally Posted by DemonHunter18 View Post
    women are ruining Marvel.

    Quote Originally Posted by DemonHunter18 View Post
    women are ruining Marvel!!!!!
    Yes...clearly what your original well-thought out argument lacked before was excessive exclamation points. Truly your argument is perfect now.
    “The biggest communication problem is we do not listen to understand. We listen to reply,” Stephen Covey.

  16. #836
    Quote Originally Posted by piethepiegod View Post
    so what they should never make new story's instead because you will be butt hurt if they do?
    I'm not the one that would be butthurt.
    Chicken fried rice is delicious!

  17. #837
    Merely a Setback Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Hi comic shop owner here.

    I've never lost a sale due to "forced diversity". I've lost sales due to shitty writing, shitty art, weird production schedules and over-saturation. Usually its about the money though. Its a little harder to keep up with Batman, X-men and the Avengers when there's 5 of each coming out every month.
    Excuse me, but forced diversity is by definition shitty writing.
    #boycottchina

  18. #838
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    Excuse me, but forced diversity is by definition shitty writing.
    some one else picking up thors hammer and getting his powers isn't shitty writing.

    captain marvel changing her name and some one else taking up the name isn't shitty writing.

    some one else being a hulk isn't shitty writing.

    steve giving some one else the title of captain america when hes no longer able to do the job isn't shitty writing.

    spider man dieing and some one else wanting to take up the name to help people isn't shitty writing.

  19. #839
    Quote Originally Posted by piethepiegod View Post
    some one else picking up thors hammer and getting his powers isn't shitty writing.

    captain marvel changing her name and some one else taking up the name isn't shitty writing.

    some one else being a hulk isn't shitty writing.

    steve giving some one else the title of captain america when hes no longer able to do the job isn't shitty writing.

    spider man dieing and some one else wanting to take up the name to help people isn't shitty writing.
    Its everything that happens after... that someone that replaced thor added a "unsolicited opinions about Isreal " joke into a alien fight scene...this was after a female villian betrayed her ally because "girl power"

    All of the stories from these replacement characters have been pretty hallow and it really is nothing more then trying to entice the college crowd.

  20. #840
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    Quote Originally Posted by primalmatter View Post
    Its everything that happens after... that someone that replaced thor added a "unsolicited opinions about Isreal " joke into a alien fight scene...this was after a female villian betrayed her ally because "girl power"

    All of the stories from these replacement characters have been pretty hallow and it really is nothing more then trying to entice the college crowd.
    miles has had a great comic run.

    khan is doing super well.

    fem thor has gone on to do the same things normal thor was doing more or less after the hiccup of her start shes had a rather great series.

    i don't like cho so i have nothing good to say for him or falcon.

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