After G7 summit, Merkel: "Europe Must Plot Own Course"

[Kiri]

You really think that we can't project military power in the Middle East without Germany? This must be a joke. The US doesn't need Germany to conduct military operations in the Middle East.

The goal of Germany before WW1 was to conquer Europe. WW1 was anticipated by Germany, and was instigated by Germany. I'm not buying into western propaganda, you're buying into Nazi propaganda. Germany was an Empire looking for total conquest and domination of continental Europe.

And how is my premise historically inaccurate? Germany has trIed to dominate Europe since the fall Napoleon. That's historically accurate. Don't try to play down the past because it doesn't conform to your current view of Germany. You can disagree with me on their intentions now, but their past intentions are historical facts.

We have military stationed in Germany because Germany tried the world conquest thing a couple of times. And oh, let's not forget about the holocaust. Our occupation of Germany was necessary, and it was in no way an occupation of Europe. I feel like you've gotten all of your history from German textbooks, at this point.

We split Germany because they tried to dominate Europe. We split Europe to prevent another war. Sorry, pal, but the we'd likely be living a post apocalyptic world if we had just let Germany get off for their crimes against the entire world. Fighting in WW2 wasn't some power play. It was a crusade against tyranny and pure evil. Of all wars, it was the most justified. The only reason we're in Europe today is to protect against Russia, and from the Germans. Not to fight off ISIS.

The question is where do you have your history knowledge from? Germany did not try to dominate Europe since the fall of Napoleon or crap like that. Bismarck created the European system of alliances precisely because he believed that Germany was a 'satiated state' (which was also why he opposed the annexation of some French areas in the war before that) and wanted to ensure peace.
Granted, the new and last Kaiser sung a more imperialistic tune, but he mostly wanted more colonies, like the other great European powers. World War 1 was an immense diplomatic failure on many sides, not a war of aggression started by any one country. Heck, the Kaiser and the Tsar were both trying to prevent it up until the last minute, but lack of trust ultimately doomed those attempts.

Edit:

So we've gone from Merkel wanting to drown Europer with refugees to her wanting complete European domination with Germany leading it?

In reality? No.
In the minds of people who think Germans are evil personified? Yes.

[Felya]

You really think that we can't project military power in the Middle East without Germany? This must be a joke. The US doesn't need Germany to conduct military operations in Germany.

Germany it self? Probably irrelevant... Europe? Yes, we cannot react to threats in Middle East or Russia or India or Europe it self, without military in Europe. Why? Simple math and the concept of time...

The goal of Germany before WW1 was to conquer Europe. WW1 was anticipated by Germany, and was instigated by Germany. I'm not buying into western propaganda, you're buying into Nazi propaganda. Germany was an Empire looking for total conquest and domination of continental Europe.

This is silly, very, very silly... Germany was not the ones who started the War. Germany was a relatively minor player in the war, as compared to its punishment. What you are suggesting is to focus on nature of imperialism, to ignore what was actually happening. WW1 was because what prince got killed? What royalty from all over Europe fought? What happened to even Russian imperialism as a result?

Imperialism to world politics was, what democracy is now. Trying to sway to a meaning of a word, while ignoring the actual events and applying the same to everyone involved, isn't going to help here. Am not going to go into semantics of imperialism, when I have actual history on my side.

And how is my premise historically inaccurate? Germany has trIed to dominate Europe since the fall Napoleon. That's historically accurate. Don't try to play down the past because it doesn't conform to your current view of Germany. You can disagree with me on their intentions now, but their past intentions are historical facts.

Germany was either fucking split in half or was toothless due to League of Nations for a majority of the last 100 years. You are completely and attorney wrong... hinging on applying the pejorative 'well, German empire wanted conquest'. Defining Germany in the a age of imperialism, is absolutely wrong. It's asking to ignore was the status que then, as an immortality then.

By your logic, we need a lot more emancipation rights for former slaves... in 2017...

We have military stationed in Germany because Germany tried the world conquest thing a couple of times. And oh, let's not forget about the holocaust. Our occupation of Germany was necessary, and it was in no way an occupation of Europe. I feel like you've gotten all of your history from German textbooks, at this point.

We split Germany between US and Russia. It was largely due to Russia's fear, which included having Poland as an Iron Curtain from Western expansion. US didn't occupy Europe, we assisted with their rebuilding and then maintained our interest squarely planted.

Not German textbooks... Russian and American text books... I went to school in USSR, not Russia... well, Ukrain... for now... probably Russia again in a few...

We split Germany because they tried to dominate Europe. We split Europe to prevent another war. Sorry, pal, but the we'd likely be living a post apocalyptic world if we had just let Germany get off for their crimes against the entire world. Fighting in WW2 wasn't some power play. It was a crusade against tyranny and pure evil. Of all wars, it was the most justified. The only reason we're in Europe today is to protect against Russia, and from the Germans. Not to fight off ISIS.

We didn't split them, Russia demanded. We punished the shit out of Germany, without needing to split Germany. We are not the ones who wanted an Iron Curtain...

[Cerilis]

*tears off Therionn's mask* Omg I knew it! It has been Cybran this entire time!

[JohnBrown1917]

Irrelevant. Speak on your behalf.

Seriously, what crawled up your vagina?

[Deleted]

Why are you talking on behalf of others?

Why are you also?

OT: Merkel is simply stating the obvious, America is under a political upheaval and Europe can't wait until their Atlantic brothers get things right.

[Deleted]

Germany it self? Probably irrelevant... Europe? Yes, we cannot react to threats in Middle East or Russia or India or Europe it self, without military in Europe. Why? Simple math and the concept of time...



This is silly, very, very silly... Germany was not the ones who started the War. Germany was a relatively minor player in the war, as compared to its punishment. What you are suggesting is to focus on nature of imperialism, to ignore what was actually happening. WW1 was because what prince got killed? What royalty from all over Europe fought? What happened to even Russian imperialism as a result?

Imperialism to world politics was, what democracy is now. Trying to sway to a meaning of a word, while ignoring the actual events and applying the same to everyone involved, isn't going to help here. Am not going to go into semantics of imperialism, when I have actual history on my side.



Germany was either fucking split in half or was toothless due to League of Nations for a majority of the last 100 years. You are completely and attorney wrong... hinging on applying the pejorative 'well, German empire wanted conquest'. Defining Germany in the a age of imperialism, is absolutely wrong. It's asking to ignore was the status que then, as an immortality then.

By your logic, we need a lot more emancipation rights for former slaves... in 2017...



We split Germany between US and Russia. It was largely due to Russia's fear, which included having Poland as an Iron Curtain from Western expansion. US didn't occupy Europe, we assisted with their rebuilding and then maintained our interest squarely planted.

Not German textbooks... Russian and American text books... I went to school in USSR, not Russia... well, Ukrain... for now... probably Russia again in a few...



We didn't split them, Russia demanded. We punished the shit out of Germany, without needing to split Germany. We are not the ones who wanted an Iron Curtain...

Germany a minor player in ww1. Whelp. I don't know what to say. This is blatant revision of history. Germany was THE major player of ww1. The entire world was at war with Germany for a reason. Germany wasn't getting picked on when they invaded all of France. The Kaiser's were hellbent on conquest.

Germany wasn't toothless. The League of Nations was. That's why Germany was able to rise up and start ww2. The League of Nation was played by Germany. After Hitler tried to conquer Europe AGAIN we finally decided to occupy Germany to ensure that they could not rise up as a military power ever again. Germany proved itself be completely irresponsible, reckless, and honestly evil with their intentions not once but twice. And conquest of Europe has never been the status quo of Europe. Theres a reason why everyone came together to defeat any power that tried to do that before Germany, and yes, even after.

Splitting up Germany was not preferable, but occupying it was our only option. We occupy Germany because Germany could not be trusted. And it still shouldn't be.

- - - Updated - - -

Germany it self? Probably irrelevant... Europe? Yes, we cannot react to threats in Middle East or Russia or India or Europe it self, without military in Europe. Why? Simple math and the concept of time...



This is silly, very, very silly... Germany was not the ones who started the War. Germany was a relatively minor player in the war, as compared to its punishment. What you are suggesting is to focus on nature of imperialism, to ignore what was actually happening. WW1 was because what prince got killed? What royalty from all over Europe fought? What happened to even Russian imperialism as a result?

Imperialism to world politics was, what democracy is now. Trying to sway to a meaning of a word, while ignoring the actual events and applying the same to everyone involved, isn't going to help here. Am not going to go into semantics of imperialism, when I have actual history on my side.



Germany was either fucking split in half or was toothless due to League of Nations for a majority of the last 100 years. You are completely and attorney wrong... hinging on applying the pejorative 'well, German empire wanted conquest'. Defining Germany in the a age of imperialism, is absolutely wrong. It's asking to ignore was the status que then, as an immortality then.

By your logic, we need a lot more emancipation rights for former slaves... in 2017...



We split Germany between US and Russia. It was largely due to Russia's fear, which included having Poland as an Iron Curtain from Western expansion. US didn't occupy Europe, we assisted with their rebuilding and then maintained our interest squarely planted.

Not German textbooks... Russian and American text books... I went to school in USSR, not Russia... well, Ukrain... for now... probably Russia again in a few...



We didn't split them, Russia demanded. We punished the shit out of Germany, without needing to split Germany. We are not the ones who wanted an Iron Curtain...

Germany a minor player in ww1. Whelp. I don't know what to say. This is blatant revision of history. Germany was THE major player of ww1. The entire world was at war with Germany for a reason. Germany wasn't getting picked on when they invaded all of France. The Kaiser's were hellbent on conquest.

Germany wasn't toothless. The League of Nations was. That's why Germany was able to rise up and start ww2. The League of Nation was played by Germany. After Hitler tried to conquer Europe AGAIN we finally decided to occupy Germany to ensure that they could not rise up as a military power ever again. Germany proved itself be completely irresponsible, reckless, and honestly evil with their intentions not once but twice. And conquest of Europe has never been the status quo of Europe. Theres a reason why everyone came together to defeat any power that tried to do that before Germany, and yes, even after.

Splitting up Germany was not preferable, but occupying it was our only option. We occupy Germany because Germany could not be trusted. And it still shouldn't be.

[Deleted]

Fear of Germany is so early 20th Century. What next, lets salt Carthage again so they never rise up?

[Garnier Fructis]

If the rest of Europe wants to go along with Germany for the ride than so be it. But they will have to know that Germany plans on being the sole driver. Everyone else will just be a passenger. So the real question is who do the Europeans trust more? The Germans, who have made domination of Europe their priority for over a century, or America who has saved Europe from the clutches of two German Reichs and Russian Communism. America, a strong, and true ally. An ally who has consistently refused to stand by and allow them to be dominated by the feuding Germans and Russians.

These countries can either be vassals of the Germans, or they can choose independence. I know what I would choose if I were them.

America is none of those things with Trump at the helm.

[Darkeon]

Why are you also?

OT: Merkel is simply stating the obvious, America is under a political upheaval and Europe can't wait until their Atlantic brothers get things right.

Waiting for proof.

You might be ok with disingenuous people, I am not.

[Deleted]

America is none of those things with Trump at the helm.

Americans don't understand the power of inter-rails and Erasmus generations.

- - - Updated - - -

Waiting for proof.

You might be ok with disingenuous people, I am not.

I agree with Gilrak's idea, here is your proof.

The only one being disingenuous here is you, because the majority of Portuguese are pro-Europe and know that Germany is just one of the players.

http://institutoeuropeu.eu/noticias/...racao-europeia

[Marcellus1986]

This subforum is like /pol/ 2.0

Welcome to the OT containment board. Where rejects can meet and talk without disturbing sane people. Enjoy yourself, unemployed white trash.

Your tl;dr diatribe was the ravings of a madman. You are literally the farthest thing from sane.

[Darkeon]

I agree with Gilrak's idea, here is your proof.

The only one being disingenuous here is you, because the majority of Portuguese are pro-Europe and know that Germany is just one of the players.

http://institutoeuropeu.eu/noticias/...racao-europeia

Appealing to Majority, huh? Interesting.

[Teleros]

Having good relations doesn't mean bending over.

Of course not - best to separate the two parts you emphasised TBH. A strong, independent Germany is far more likely to have good relations in the long run with Russia than an enfeebled Germany that Russia can bully all the time. Same for all the other European nations IMHO. It's more that unless they're willing to spend the money necessary to defend themselves, the Russians will bully them.

Russia is hurting from European sanctions much more than from US sanctions. The US isn't the only nation that knows how to play hardball. The EU (not a nation, I know, but you get my point) can do that, too.

They are, but I'm not sure it's working that well. Putin can point to the problems and (somewhat legitimately) say "blame the West", shoring up his own support in the process.

Defense spending? That's just a number on a sheet. And budgets can be adjusted. If Merkel is serious about the shift in direction for the EU, then she will be more open to certain adjustments, I'd assume.

One would hope so.

= + =

It takes two to tango Russia seems to have no interest in getting along with its neighbors, Putin needs that tension to keep the Russian people in check otherwise they may start focusing on how horrible they are doing domestically.

Oh you're absolutely right that Russia could (and IMHO *should*) do more to get on, and not cause unnecessary tension. But if wishes were horses, beggars would ride - wishing Russia was not so aggressive won't make it so, and therefore you have to work with the reality, not the ideal. That means that, without the US promising to help defend Europe, the European nations need to take greater steps to defend themselves.

= + =

That just doesn't add up.

German and French military spending alone is more than the Russian military budget. Individually, they're a bit behind Russia but certainly not by an order of magnitude.

It's not just how much money you spend, but it's how much you get per euro (or whatever). The French Air Force has under 45,000 personnel - the Russians have 100k more. Total manpower in the French armed forces is ~300k, in Russia it's ~770k. Now, France is the one exception in the post-Brexit EU in that it has nukes, but all the same, that's a pretty unpleasant match-up, and it's not like Russian equipment belongs in a museum either.

Anyone who honestly believes Russia could bully the EU in the face of the combined military might of the EU nations has been fooled by years of Russian posturing.

The combined might is really not very combined though. Different languages, cultures, local concerns, political wheeling & dealing... it's a fragile structure. Will the Lithuanians fight as fiercely for Germany as they would for their own homeland? What if Lithuania decides to sit this one out?

Whilst it's true that NATO has helped standardise a lot of stuff, I still have to hand Russia a big advantage in terms of political unity and having a single vision for any military actions, when set against an alliance like the EU. Obviously, if the EU gets its act together it should win - hell, it's got enough industry and people in its borders that a long war almost has to go to them - but that then leads to the other issue: political willpower. Put simply, it avails the EU nothing if its armed forces are 100x as good as Russia's if the EU's political leaders are terrified of war and won't do what's necessary. Obviously this is hyperbole, but you get the idea I hope. But, say what you will about the Russians, but they're a tough people, and they're not used to the luxuries like us Westerners are. I'd expect there to be a lot less complaining in a war if Putin asked for major sacrifices from the Russian people vs if Merkel did the same for the German people today.

= + =

This is not true. Russia does not have the capacity to muscle anyone.

Tell that to the Baltic states with their substantial Russian minorities.

Europe, with Germany specifically, switching over to renewable energy

Lol.

Okay, okay... I quite agree that the tanking oil price hurts Russian influence in Europe, but renewables really aren't the reason why. Wind & solar in particular are a joke - the former won't work if it's too windy or not windy enough, and the latter depends on sunlight. It's also impossible for all practical purposes to store excess power.

With oil prices dropping, prior to Trump at least, while Europe taking initiative to get away from oil, Russia is losing influence. It's not a coincidence that Russian espionage has exploded, at a time when their ability to thrust influence in Europe is fading.

Honestly, I was talking not about soft power muscle from Russia, but hard power. "Ohai Poland, don't mind us, we're just parking six divisions on your border..." etc.

As far as oil prices go, I expect them to remain generally low - because any time OPEC et al raise them, all the fracking companies in the USA burst into activity and screw OPEC :P . The Saudis (and Russians) et al have been *really* hurt by fracking, to the point that oil revenues in Saudi Arabia have, IIRC, halved. OPEC members are running big deficits, and that's not sustainable in the long run.

Russia cannot fight either economically or militarily wise, against either Europe or US. Especially if US and EU are a united force.

The point of this thread is that the EU should get out from the USA's shadow, and given how many people seem to think the God-Emperor is in Putin's pocket, you can't assume the USA will come riding to the EU's aid in such a scenario. And as above, when it comes to fighting the EU without US support, Russia has an ace in the hole in that the EU is hardly a united front. Sure, Poland, Hungary etc don't want to be dominated by Russia, but they also don't want Germany foisting any refugees on them, the Greeks are sick to death of German-imposed austerity (as they see it, /care about whether the facts agree or not), and so on.

Things like the OP is what Russia needs to stay relevant... divide and conquer...

Quite. The trouble for Russia with this (again, assuming the USA no longer guarantees peace in Europe) is that many Eastern European countries in particular are wary about ending up as client states, especially after the Cold War.

= + =

Lol, you really think defense spending would decrease? Hell, it will cost more if they can't use our infrastructure.

It might go down, depending on the situation. But if the USA withdraws from Europe, unless it wants to start using that freed-up manpower & money to pressure China, what else is it going to do? Trump can quite plausibly say that now that Europe is taking care of its own defence, the USA need not spend as much, and can cut the defence budget without harming American interests. If anyone's going to ride roughshod over the military-industrial complex, it's him - not so much because he doesn't like them, mind, but because the God-Emperor rides roughshod over everyone in his way :P .

Worst case, it'll mean no change. It certainly won't cost more though, because... well, why would US defence spending go *up* when they're doing less?

[Kiri]

Germany a minor player in ww1. Whelp. I don't know what to say. This is blatant revision of history. Germany was THE major player of ww1. The entire world was at war with Germany for a reason. Germany wasn't getting picked on when they invaded all of France. The Kaiser's were hellbent on conquest.

Germany wasn't toothless. The League of Nations was. That's why Germany was able to rise up and start ww2. The League of Nation was played by Germany. After Hitler tried to conquer Europe AGAIN we finally decided to occupy Germany to ensure that they could not rise up as a military power ever again. Germany proved itself be completely irresponsible, reckless, and honestly evil with their intentions not once but twice. And conquest of Europe has never been the status quo of Europe. Theres a reason why everyone came together to defeat any power that tried to do that before Germany, and yes, even after.

Splitting up Germany was not preferable, but occupying it was our only option. We occupy Germany because Germany could not be trusted. And it still shouldn't be.

Actually, one of the catalysts that ultimately led to the foundation of Germany as a proper nation state was aforementioned Napoleon invading the many territories it consisted of before. Germany and France had been enemies for quite a while afterwards, though an outright invasion of France did not happen until the world wars. In WW1, it was inevitable, due to the threat of a war on two fronts. Russia was mobilizing in the East, intent on joining the war against one of Germany's allies to the south, so Germany was mobilizing as well. You can read all the intent you want into that, but the German kaiser and Russian tsar tried to defuse the situation, albeit with neither trusting the other well enough to de-mobilize first.
Germany, due to the alliances it was in, thus was brought into war with Russia - which was allied with France. That meant France was going to enter the war against Germany as well. However, Russia would take longer to arrive at the German borders, so Germany saw its best chance at survival in trying to force France out of the war asap. There were some negotiations to avert fighting, but again, one could not fully trust the other side to uphold any deals, so those broke down.

That, ultimately, is a vastly different situation than the Blitz in WW2, which was mostly a war of aggression on Germany's side. No one disputes that one. But by putting both these events on the same level, that is a blatant revision of history.
Also, not the whole world was at war with Germany in WW1... It saw the Tripple Entante pitted against Germany, Italy, and Austria-Hungary (with assorted smaller nations involved on both sides). The six great powers of Europe were split up like that. Though you are right that Germany was not just a minor player in all of this. Of its alliance, it proved the strongest and most dangerous - which was why it was brought down so much by the treaty of Versailles.

[Slant]

I wouldn't count the US out yet, it can survive Trump for 4 or even 8 years I believe. But it certainly seems like, for at least at the moment, that the US presidency has little interest in diplomacy and we should be clear about what we think of that.

I'm not counting out the US. You're not understanding the point I made. If the EU decides to emancipate itself from the US, and it seems they're on their way to do that, that decision has a finality to it that future US presidents cannot reverse. Europe was contend playing second fiddle up until now. Trump actually convinced Europe that it might be worth the effort to run things by themselves again. And once that is done, there's no turning back. Certainly not in a manner that the US dictates.

[alexw]

Putin must be chortling with glee and rubbing his hands together. "Yes, yes, my plans are coming to fruition!"

Pretty much. This is horrifically bad. We cannot exist as a superpower without the network of alliances that underpin our power. Look into the past and you'll find the same is true for any superpower which has existed. From ancient Rome to the British empire, all were dependent on others to underpin their superpower status. For one of our key allies to publicly make such a statement, is horrifically bad and indicates our alliance network is starting to fracture. If it goes then so will our sole superpower status. Be in no doubt about that.

[unfilteredJW]

Heh.

I'm enjoying the irony of someone with a member berry avatar saying what's being said.

10/10

[Xarkan]

How did you come to that conclusion, she said nothing remotely like that.

She said neither of it, she does not seem to want to drown Europe with refugees either

[Slant]

Things like the OP is what Russia needs to stay relevant... divide and conquer...

I disagree. The US was getting a bit big. They had no counter balance. We can see the result of that now. I think it would be rather healthy for the US, for Europe and probably the world as a whole if Europe strengthened a bit and provided an actual counter balance to the US. And also keep them in check and tell them when they fuck up.

Make no mistake, when push comes to shove, the US and Europe will always stand shoulder by shoulder.

- - - Updated - - -

You really think that we can't project military power in the Middle East without Germany? This must be a joke. The US doesn't need Germany to conduct military operations in the Middle East.

The goal of Germany before WW1 was to conquer Europe. WW1 was anticipated by Germany, and was instigated by Germany. I'm not buying into western propaganda, you're buying into Nazi propaganda. Germany was an Empire looking for total conquest and domination of continental Europe.

And how is my premise historically inaccurate? Germany has trIed to dominate Europe since the fall Napoleon. That's historically accurate. Don't try to play down the past because it doesn't conform to your current view of Germany. You can disagree with me on their intentions now, but their past intentions are historical facts.

We have military stationed in Germany because Germany tried the world conquest thing a couple of times. And oh, let's not forget about the holocaust. Our occupation of Germany was necessary, and it was in no way an occupation of Europe. I feel like you've gotten all of your history from German textbooks, at this point.

We split Germany because they tried to dominate Europe. We split Europe to prevent another war. Sorry, pal, but the we'd likely be living a post apocalyptic world if we had just let Germany get off for their crimes against the entire world. Fighting in WW2 wasn't some power play. It was a crusade against tyranny and pure evil. Of all wars, it was the most justified. The only reason we're in Europe today is to protect against Russia, and from the Germans. Not to fight off ISIS.

You don't need Germany to conduct power projection. But Germany and your NATO allies sure make the job much easier for you. When you have medivacs, they get flown to Germany, not the US. Your theatre command sits in Europe, not the US. You have major logistics hubs in Europe that you like to use. And so on and so forth. You could do all of that without Europe, but boy, those trillions these wars cost you? Double the figure without Europe...

WW1 was hardly instigated by Germany. Historians agree that Germany was caught up in a rather fucked up net of alliances and at some point became a passenger of events. Germany also hasn't wanted to dominate Europe since the fall of Napoleon. Germany wasn't even a thing back then. It was a loose collection of tiny states. A fractured proto-nation if you like. Hardly anyone was thinking outside Germany in those days. The main bullet points were internal German things like Prussia vs. Austria.

Good thing you bring up the holocaust. Not sure what it has to do with anything here, but no Germany bashing post would be complete without mentioning the holocaust.

You didn't "split" Germany. Russia did. The US never wanted a split Germany. Quite the opposite, they wanted Germany to remain whole. The split was feared to give Germans another excuse for resentment towards the occupation. You're in Europe today, because Europe lets you. Don't make the mistake to think that the US could somehow be here without our permission.

And you're not in Europe to protect against us. You're here, because we asked you to be here. You're our guests. If the US truly acted like you pretend, we'd have uninvited them a long time ago. Newsflash for the historically challenged: Germany is a sovereign nation at peace. WW2 is over. Germany is not occupied. Look up 4+2 treaty of 1990 on Google.

[Dezerte]

I'm not counting out the US. You're not understanding the point I made.

I wasn't really responding to any post in particular, just kind of speaking generally about what I think.