Can secular people understand ISIS/Islamic Terrorism?

[Nathreim]

The average person cant understand ISIS and other jihadists because they are insane.

ISIS belong to a large subset of Islam called Twelvers they wants to summon the 12th Imam (Muslim version of the antichrist) too kick off the end of the world. Why? Because according to them the coming of the 12th Imam triggers events that lead to the coming of the messiah, conversion of the nonbelievers, and destruction of the Jews.

[Deleted]

I've had several anthropologist colleagues of mine suggest with a straight face that "Nobody believes in Heavenly rewards." This to me seems strange, or at least based on a presumptive bias that everyone is effectively just an Atheist but putting on a show or a cultural performance.

The problem is that we are so utterly secular now, that we find it impossible to think of religious belief as anything more than an epiphenomenon. It is both impossible for political reasons for us to acknowledge Islam's role in ISLAMic terrorism, but also because we are so fundamentally secular that it is impossible for us to conceive of people behaving in any way that is alien to our own.

I think this is indeed one of the biggest problems with understanding other religions and cultures, and Islamic ones in particular. It's nearly impossible for many people to understand that billions of people truly do believe in all that superstitious nonsense. After all, many people are ignorant, shallow and selfish, and can't even fathom another way of thinking where superstition, genuine fear of an evil god, rules every moment of one's life.

Ignorant because their knowledge of other cultures is lackluster. Shallow because they think other cultures are just superficial -- clothing, language, skin color, and can't understand what's going on between other people's ears. And general selfishness makes it next to impossible to understand why would some fanatics so willingly sacrifice their lives for something they perceive to be greater than life itself. Most multi-cultists are cowards who, short of defending their own family, would never risk their own safety even for things they know to be right.

[Independent voter]

"Of the same sect" is that part you left out. They kill the shit out of Muslims who don't believe like they do.

This is correct.

[Deleted]

Is this the atheist mirror to "you can't develop morality if you don't believe in a superior power"?.

[Ianus]

Is this sarcasm? ISIS' biggest target is other Muslims, those that don't follow their extremist beliefs.

ofc they kill most of time muslims thats why they said manchester was legitimate target because it was meeting of crusaders..

[Deleted]

As we've seen, nominal faith alone does not cause directly destructive behavior but gang/doomsday cult structure of ISIS's flavor do. I think most practically minded people and organizations would rather study and combat these rather than try to undermine ISIS with theological arguments.

[Fencers]

I do not think it is inconcieveable for a secular person to understand the degree of fanaticism in a religious person. Sympathizing with that fanaticism is another matter and beyond the reach of all but the fanatic.

Nonetheless, understanding ISIS is largely topical. One need only know their goals and aims, decide if those are contra to your own goals and act accordingly. At least from the point of view of a nation.

[Berengil]

This, exactly, 100%. It's them or us. I'd prefer us.

Don't mistake that for a general disregard for Muslims (or any other large group). One of my high school friends is married to a great, loving, Muslim man. ISIS isn't that, though, and I'd rather see them just completely eradicated.

I mostly agree with you, but I'm troubled by those Muslims who say they would never commit terrorism, but still want to live under Sharia law in the West, or say they sympathize with terrorist's motives, but not their actions.

I just don't know how we make peace with a belief system that is fundamentally incompatible with the values of the Enlightenment and its offspring: Western Liberal Democracy.

I am amazed that the man quoted in my sig was able to bridge such a gap. Perhaps it's that the Ahmadiyya community in India is a tolerant and peaceful form of Islam. It's perhaps instructive that they are considered heretics by many other Muslims.

[Queen of Hamsters]

... For real? More Americans believe in angels than Evolution... And we have plenty of religious people believing 100% in gods and shit even here in Sweden. Doesn't go down either as we import people from areas of the world where religion is often also baked with the society.

I'm not religious, but I have no trouble believing the strength of deception and people's ability to convince themselves of shit convenient to them. Comfort, sense of purpose, you name it.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

I've had several anthropologist colleagues of mine suggest with a straight face that "Nobody believes in Heavenly rewards." This to me seems strange, or at least based on a presumptive bias that everyone is effectively just an Atheist but putting on a show or a cultural performance.

The problem is that we are so utterly secular now, that we find it impossible to think of religious belief as anything more than an epiphenomenon. It is both impossible for political reasons for us to acknowledge Islam's role in ISLAMic terrorism, but also because we are so fundamentally secular that it is impossible for us to conceive of people behaving in any way that is alien to our own.

There is also a bit of hubris involved since to claim ISIS are primarily motivated in attacking us by anythg over which we might have agency is both a delusion and a kind of humble brag.

Discuss, Are we incapable of understanding ISIS?

Americans are not, anywhere even close to a majority, secular.


http://www.gallup.com/poll/193271/am...lieve-god.aspx

[Powerogue]

Humans having trouble understanding people who are different than they are. Stop the presses!

Though I'd say the easiest way to understand them is to read the book where they're getting these ideas from. (with the understanding that people cherrypick and selectively ignore parts that don't conform to what they want to think, of course.)

[Freighter]

Americans are not, anywhere even close to a majority, secular.


http://www.gallup.com/poll/193271/am...lieve-god.aspx

That has nothing to do with secularism though.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

That has nothing to do with secularism though.

When one of the two major parties in the United States stops trying to pass laws based on their religion I'll concede the point. As it stands right now though the US is not a secular country.

[Mittens]

... For real? More Americans believe in angels than Evolution...

Aside from the stigma and some careers is there even a need in believing in evolution?

[Freighter]

When one of the two major parties in the United States stops trying to pass laws based on their religion I'll concede the point. As it stands right now though the US is not a secular country.

What? You can't say that by how the government is acting. You can say the government isn't secular. You can't say the same about the country.

In the population, how many think laws should be religiously motivated?

[IsaacHawke]

1. Religion!=Islam!=Terrorism
2. Anyone who could understand JB's fans can understand extremists, secular or not

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Aside from the stigma and some careers is there even a need in believing in evolution?

On a day to day level? Not really.

But it's pretty hard to call yourself secular when you deny scientific evidence because it conflicts with your religion.

[Freighter]

But it's pretty hard to call yourself secular when you deny scientific evidence because it conflicts with your religion.

What? No. You must have misunderstood what secularism is if you think that has anything to do with secularism.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

What? You can't say that by how the government is acting. You can say the government isn't secular. You can't say the same about the country.

In the population, how many think laws should be religiously motivated?

Enough that the people that are responsible for making those laws keep getting elected.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Aside from the stigma and some careers is there even a need in believing in evolution?

It's not a matter of opinion, it's fact. Someone believing in angels over cold, hard facts will never be anything but a problem in my eyes.