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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberowl View Post
    It was a general statement, not a statement about military.
    A meaningless general statement.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Mittens View Post
    A meaningless general statement.
    Because it doesn't cover your favorite toys? Bohooo. The G6 leaders all seemed to agree that the US can't be part of everything going forward.

  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberowl View Post
    Afaik Slant isn't a Trump supporter.
    ..Or a mod.



    But really, if you believe the whole 'sins of the father' shit, its just going to be a waste of time to argue with that person.

  4. #144
    The Lightbringer Cerilis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Let me quote you:



    When exactly do you think Napoleon lived? I can tell you when he died. 1821. At that point, Germany was still the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation, the first German revolution of 1848 was still over 20 years away and Austria still dominated European politics. So, when you tell me Germany was trying to conquer Europe when Napoleon was around, then I'll tell you nope, they weren't. And you're really getting your limited historical knowledge fubar'd horribly. You're throwing two centuries of European history together. A history that is entirely too complex for your to process, apparently. Oh, there is a connection. There is a red line going all the way back to the fucking Roman Empire. But you've apparently not seen it. You're taking the wrong conclusions, mixing up the players on both sides and confuse timelines very badly. To a point where you don't even make sense if I only take your own posts as reference.

    Germany was a nation in WW1, but Napoleon was 100 years before that. So when you throw around wild accusations, at least get the years right, if nothing else. I have already explained the cause of war to you. As an example that you'll understand, when 9/11 triggered Art. 5, because the US deemed itself under attack, not going into Afghanistan was not an option. It was like that before WW1. Not keeping the alliance was not an option, lest you stand alone between two alliances. Guess who's in the way of everyone getting at everyone else's throat in Europe? That's right, the country in the middle. Quite literally, between the stools here.

    I'm not disagreeing about the holocaust. Clearly you haven't seen me post about that topic. I would contend two things, though: First, you're bringing up the holocaust is purely for polemic and hyperbolic reasons. The holocaust, with all its heinous nature, has nothing to do with this thread or any of the subtopics we're discussing. Second, Nazi Germany is dead. Truly, culturally, ideologically gone. For all the times that I keep talking (and bashed) for urging people to remember what happened, never forget and never repeat the mistakes, this is the one time where I'll tell you bluntly, you can go and fuck right off with that attitude. Because I won't let you judge me like a Nazi, you pompous little snot.
    Minor nitpick, the Holy Roman Empire was actually disbanded by Napoleon in 1806.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrak View Post
    But really, if you believe the whole 'sins of the father' shit, its just going to be a waste of time to argue with that person.
    True, but in that case, every nation has enough skeletons in the closet to make that a really awkward party, if you ask me. Who knows, we might all get lucky and Putin dies from a heart attack tomorrow. Perhaps they'll elect Gorbachev 2.0 and we can actually deal with a normal Russia again. Things can change, you just have to wait long enough.
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  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberowl View Post
    Because it doesn't cover your favorite toys? Bohooo. The G6 leaders all seemed to agree that the US can't be part of everything going forward.
    It doesn't cover the only thing the EU is dependent on the US. But if you want to believe this means anything, go on. ('w'7

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Cerilis View Post
    Minor nitpick, the Holy Roman Empire was actually disbanded by Napoleon in 1806.
    I'll concede the nitpick, but it was even a bit more complicated than what you said. Either way, it's close enough to school that boy a little bit. In 1815, the HRE still existed. Technically. See, they had to leave the HRE to enter the new Rheinbund. :P

    Edit: To clarify, Germany didn't try to conquer anything, because "Germany" wasn't a thing back then. "Germany" became a thing after 1871/1872 when France and the German Empire fought one of their wars and France actually fostered a national identity of "Germany" in the German states.
    Last edited by Slant; 2017-05-28 at 11:57 PM.
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  8. #148
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    I think it's hilarious that people think that there's any chance that the US would sit out if there was a war between the EU and Russia. It wouldn't. It would come to the defense of whatever side was being invaded, even if that meant defending Russia from the EU.

    The US military is never deployed for anyone's benefit but the US. It's not in Europe out of the goodness of US hearts, it's there to further the US interests in the area. There is no way that the US would ever be okay with ANYONE having control of both Europe and Asia. If that ever happened then the US would be in danger of replaced as the preeminent world power, and the US will most definitely go to war to prevent that. The security of the US is ultimately dependent on the EU, Russia, and China staying separate powers.

    Any war that has a chance of significantly changing the balance of world power is a war that the US will be involved in one way or another. It's foolish to think otherwise. And you can be certain that they'll get involved while the war is still happening on foreign soil, they won't wait until it comes to US shores. That's the entire reason the US decided to become a world power to begin with, to make sure that nobody would ever be in a position to bring a fight into American cities.

    Edit: If there's one thing the US learned from WW1 and WW2, it's how devastating it was to the cities and countries where the fighting was heaviest. The best place to defend America is on someone else's land. (Russia also learned this, hence why they never really rebuilt Eastern Europe when the USSR was a thing. They didn't want the land, per se, they just wanted to make certain that if they got into another fight, it would happen on land they didn't care about.)
    Last edited by Lynarii; 2017-05-28 at 11:59 PM.

  9. #149
    That's pretty much the Skoe school of thought. And it makes sense. Wish Trump would read Skroe's posts once in a while.
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  10. #150
    The Lightbringer Cerilis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    I'll concede the nitpick, but it was even a bit more complicated than what you said. Either way, it's close enough to school that boy a little bit. In 1815, the HRE still existed. Technically. See, they had to leave the HRE to enter the new Rheinbund. :P
    That might be a futile endeavour.

    But wasn't the Rheinbund only Napoleon's puppet that merely lasted until his defeat? I think the proper successor(after 1815) was the German federation, that was pretty much dominated by the bigger powers. Don't nail me on the details though.

  11. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    You don't even know why WW1 was started, do you? There was no ultimatum. There was an instant declaration of war. Reason: The assassination of the Austrian heir apparent. Wars have been started for less, I'd like to add. That the war started wasn't the problem. I think everyone can agree that killing the heir apparent of a nation is quite legitimately a reason to fuck someone's day up.

    The whole problem was the complicated constructs of alliances and counter alliances in Europe. They were absolutely the direct opposite of the type of cooperation we see in Europe today. Why the fuck do you think the EU even exists? The sole main purpose for the original treaties that evolved into what we call EU now was to bring Germany and France into a relationship where one could not hurt the other without hurting themselves. As far as artificial bonds go, this is the bloody grand slam of all international politics in the history of mankind.

    And now you come along and try to tell us that Germany ought to be distrusted because... WW1 and WW2? Disregarding that after WW2 there was a cut? That in 1990 there was another cut? And I'm not even begrudging you the right to critically observe and question everything Germany does. But please, do it on the merits of today's Germany, not the Germany of two generations ago. You're being unfair and prejudiced.
    Are you sure you want to go with this line of argument? Yes. KAY.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_C...atum_to_Serbia

    So... I want you to read that. Please, read it, and then tell me you know more about the lead up to WW1. Do you do you research before ignorantly posting things like this?

    There was an ultimatum. And the Germans pushed for the Austrians to attack the Serbs. This wasn't some "oh, well i guess we gotta support our allies" type of deal. The Germans actively encouraged the Austrians to go to war with Serbia. In fact, their military really wanted one, because they actually wanted to start a World War. They were crazy enough to think they could win it. And it wasn't like the Austrians were truly devastated by the assassination. They simply saw it as a chance to invade and conquer.

    Szögyény reported to Vienna that Wilhelm "would regret it if we [Austria-Hungary] let this present chance, which was so favourable for us, go by without utilising it"
    A random Serb just gave them an excuse to rile up their people. And they utilized that to it's fullest extent.

    If that's too much for you to handle... Assassination: June 28th. War started: July 28th. That's an entire month, pal.

    I will judge Germany based upon it's history. The world has forgiven Germany, but it will never forget. Actually, that's one of the main things we love to say about the holocaust. Never forget. I don't think Germany intends to invade countries. I think Germany intends to impose it's will upon it's neighbors as it always has since it initially came into existence. I do not believe that they have totally pure intentions, and I will never will. The EU has it's merits, I agree, but not to the entire European continent.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Cerilis View Post
    That might be a futile endeavour.

    But wasn't the Rheinbund only Napoleon's puppet that merely lasted until his defeat? I think the proper successor(after 1815) was the German federation, that was pretty much dominated by the bigger powers. Don't nail me on the details though.
    I'm pretty certain the Rheinbund was the first stage of that Federation. Regardless, it only lasted until 1871/72, whatever they called it. Interrupted by that glorious 1848 revolution. If they had succeeded during that revolution, we'd probably would've had a much easier time later.
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  13. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Let me quote you:



    When exactly do you think Napoleon lived? I can tell you when he died. 1821. At that point, Germany was still the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation, the first German revolution of 1848 was still over 20 years away and Austria still dominated European politics. So, when you tell me Germany was trying to conquer Europe when Napoleon was around, then I'll tell you nope, they weren't. And you're really getting your limited historical knowledge fubar'd horribly. You're throwing two centuries of European history together. A history that is entirely too complex for your to process, apparently. Oh, there is a connection. There is a red line going all the way back to the fucking Roman Empire. But you've apparently not seen it. You're taking the wrong conclusions, mixing up the players on both sides and confuse timelines very badly. To a point where you don't even make sense if I only take your own posts as reference.

    Germany was a nation in WW1, but Napoleon was 100 years before that. So when you throw around wild accusations, at least get the years right, if nothing else. I have already explained the cause of war to you. As an example that you'll understand, when 9/11 triggered Art. 5, because the US deemed itself under attack, not going into Afghanistan was not an option. It was like that before WW1. Not keeping the alliance was not an option, lest you stand alone between two alliances. Guess who's in the way of everyone getting at everyone else's throat in Europe? That's right, the country in the middle. Quite literally, between the stools here.

    I'm not disagreeing about the holocaust. Clearly you haven't seen me post about that topic. I would contend two things, though: First, you're bringing up the holocaust is purely for polemic and hyperbolic reasons. The holocaust, with all its heinous nature, has nothing to do with this thread or any of the subtopics we're discussing. Second, Nazi Germany is dead. Truly, culturally, ideologically gone. For all the times that I keep talking (and bashed) for urging people to remember what happened, never forget and never repeat the mistakes, this is the one time where I'll tell you bluntly, you can go and fuck right off with that attitude. Because I won't let you judge me like a Nazi, you pompous little snot.
    Lol, only forget it when it suits you. Sounds about right to me, buddy.

    Okay, I'll make it more clear for. Germany did not try to dominate Europe immediately after the Napoleonic wars. No, instead, they were trying to dominate each other. After around 50 years, and many bloody wars, Germany was finally unified. As a new empire, Germany turned it's aggression towards the rest of the world. Now, if you'd please, I'd like to see you respond to me disproving your assertion that the ww1 was in no way instigated by the Germans.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Berengil View Post
    That's kind of my point, Kiri. We should take our ball and go home. US non-engagement in the Eastern Hemisphere (after we have achieved full energy independence) will make all the trouble on that side of the world someone else's problem. And (metaphorically) there will be a "No Trespassing, violators will be shot" sign hanging over the Americas.
    Well, that sign is already hanging there. But yeah, it is a pretty lame stance to have. 'Sorry, Iraq/Afghanistan. Have fun without our support, we got what we needed from you.'

    Quote Originally Posted by Therionn View Post
    You're telling me that the ultimatum that the Austro-Hungarians sent to Serbia was in anyway acceptable (despite it being sent in order to provoke the war). You're telling me the Germans, who then initiated the war by invading Luxembourg, were not the aggressors? You're telling me that the Germans didn't invade Belgium after Belgium refused to allow the Germans to use their country as a launch pad for their invasion of French? Is that all just made up? None of that's true, right? You clearly do not know your history, or you're blatantly lying.

    Oh, poor Germans, they were just so confused. They really were just trying to be the good guys! Stop revising history. The Germans and their alliance initiated WW1.
    First, Austria-Hungaria is not Germany. They were pissed at their royalty being assassinated, etc. etc. That is a failure of diplomacy, but not German aggression.
    But it is funny that you moved to initiation here. Because while it is true that Germany declared war first, that does not necessarily mean that Germany wanted a war first. Back then, during the age of the train, the most wide-spread belief was that those who managed to get their armies into position first would win the war.
    That is why things escalated so greatly when all sides started 'mobilizing just in case'. Country A mobilizes, country B has to mobilize as well, or they are caught unawares when country A attacks. That sort of thinking. That is why the German kaiser and Russian Tsar went back and forth begging the other to stop mobilizing first - they did not want a war, but they wanted to lose said war by failing to be ready even less.
    The last ultimatum sent by Germany urged Russia to stop mobilizing, then they would do so as well. It was not met, so war was declared. That was how it worked back there. Both sides are equally at fault there though - either could have taken the leap of faith and stepped back first. Neither did. That is why I consider both of them at fault.

    You, though, simply take the fact that Germany declared first and turn that into a narrative that Germany wanted a war so badly in order to conquer all of Europe, because that fits your narrative. Certainly, some Germans thought so - just like some Russians, Austrians and French did. Germany in and of itself, by becoming a strong nation right in the middle of other, established powers, had thrown Europe into a state of instability - less through unbridled aggression but more by upsetting the balance of power that had been in place before. It was only a matter of time before something caused it all to unravel, especially with that network of alliances that caused almost all of Europe to be swallowed up in the Great War because of a somewhat regional dispute.

    There is no need for hyperbole there. Germany was not trying to be the good guys, they were playing power politics like everyone else. But there were also not cartoon villains bent on world domination for the past century and a half, as you made them out to be. Every country has had dark periods in their history, but those do not define their current iterations. The current generation of Japanese is not the same that declared war on the US in such an horrific way. The current generation of Americans not the same as the ones enslaving one people and almost exterminating another. Etc. Etc.
    History is important. For nations to come to terms with the sins of their past generations and to not repeat them is one of the reasons why we study it. I don't judge you by whatever your grandparents did, so why do you judge me?

  15. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    I'm pretty certain the Rheinbund was the first stage of that Federation. Regardless, it only lasted until 1871/72, whatever they called it. Interrupted by that glorious 1848 revolution. If they had succeeded during that revolution, we'd probably would've had a much easier time later.
    Just like you were pretty certain that WW1 started the day after the assassination of Ferdinand, right?

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Therionn View Post
    Are you sure you want to go with this line of argument? Yes. KAY.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_C...atum_to_Serbia

    So... I want you to read that. Please, read it, and then tell me you know more about the lead up to WW1. Do you do you research before ignorantly posting things like this?

    There was an ultimatum. And the Germans pushed for the Austrians to attack the Serbs. This wasn't some "oh, well i guess we gotta support our allies" type of deal. The Germans actively encouraged the Austrians to go to war with Serbia. In fact, their military really wanted one, because they actually wanted to start a World War. They were crazy enough to think they could win it. And it wasn't like the Austrians were truly devastated by the assassination. They simply saw it as a chance to invade and conquer.

    A random Serb just gave them an excuse to rile up their people. And they utilized that to it's fullest extent.

    If that's too much for you to handle... Assassination: June 28th. War started: July 28th. That's an entire month, pal.

    I will judge Germany based upon it's history. The world has forgiven Germany, but it will never forget. Actually, that's one of the main things we love to say about the holocaust. Never forget. I don't think Germany intends to invade countries. I think Germany intends to impose it's will upon it's neighbors as it always has since it initially came into existence. I do not believe that they have totally pure intentions, and I will never will. The EU has it's merits, I agree, but not to the entire European continent.
    Austrians not devastated by the loss of their heir apparent? Go ahead, kill Prince William and see if that doesn't toss England into a full fledged berserker rage. But whatever, let's assume you're right in your paranoid fear of Germany. Go ahead and judge us. Judge us on our merits, however. Not what people 100-200 years ago did. If you can't even do that, then I honestly don't give a fuck what you think. Because quite honestly, you're in the minority.

    And the good thing about that? We're quite happy being the good guys. Why should we conquer anyone? For what? We have everything we need, as a nation we are more adverse to warfare than peace talks. We're the ones pressing for diplomatic options. We're the ones that call out Bush's administration for bullshitting their way into a war. Where you from, dude? Because I'm beginning to get curious. Better make it a country that has a particularly clean sheet, because if I find so much as a speck of dirt on it, I'll rub your nose in it. :P
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  17. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiri View Post
    Well, that sign is already hanging there. But yeah, it is a pretty lame stance to have. 'Sorry, Iraq/Afghanistan. Have fun without our support, we got what we needed from you.'



    First, Austria-Hungaria is not Germany. They were pissed at their royalty being assassinated, etc. etc. That is a failure of diplomacy, but not German aggression.
    But it is funny that you moved to initiation here. Because while it is true that Germany declared war first, that does not necessarily mean that Germany wanted a war first. Back then, during the age of the train, the most wide-spread belief was that those who managed to get their armies into position first would win the war.
    That is why things escalated so greatly when all sides started 'mobilizing just in case'. Country A mobilizes, country B has to mobilize as well, or they are caught unawares when country A attacks. That sort of thinking. That is why the German kaiser and Russian Tsar went back and forth begging the other to stop mobilizing first - they did not want a war, but they wanted to lose said war by failing to be ready even less.
    The last ultimatum sent by Germany urged Russia to stop mobilizing, then they would do so as well. It was not met, so war was declared. That was how it worked back there. Both sides are equally at fault there though - either could have taken the leap of faith and stepped back first. Neither did. That is why I consider both of them at fault.

    You, though, simply take the fact that Germany declared first and turn that into a narrative that Germany wanted a war so badly in order to conquer all of Europe, because that fits your narrative. Certainly, some Germans thought so - just like some Russians, Austrians and French did. Germany in and of itself, by becoming a strong nation right in the middle of other, established powers, had thrown Europe into a state of instability - less through unbridled aggression but more by upsetting the balance of power that had been in place before. It was only a matter of time before something caused it all to unravel, especially with that network of alliances that caused almost all of Europe to be swallowed up in the Great War because of a somewhat regional dispute.

    There is no need for hyperbole there. Germany was not trying to be the good guys, they were playing power politics like everyone else. But there were also not cartoon villains bent on world domination for the past century and a half, as you made them out to be. Every country has had dark periods in their history, but those do not define their current iterations. The current generation of Japanese is not the same that declared war on the US in such an horrific way. The current generation of Americans not the same as the ones enslaving one people and almost exterminating another. Etc. Etc.
    History is important. For nations to come to terms with the sins of their past generations and to not repeat them is one of the reasons why we study it. I don't judge you by whatever your grandparents did, so why do you judge me?
    Germany demands that another country stops mobilizing it's troops after Germany mobilizes it's troops first... Yet it's somehow everyone else's fault as well? This has to be a joke.

    The Germans wanted a to war. They actively encouraged the Austria-Hungary to declare war on the Serbs. The generals thought this would lead to a general war (ww1), and they wanted it to. The Kaiser thought it would be local. Or in other words, the Kaiser's advisers actively sought WW1. This is a matter of fact.

    On 2 July, the Saxon Ambassador in Berlin wrote back to his king that the German Army wanted Austria to attack Serbia as quickly as possible because the time was right for a general war since Germany was more prepared for war than either Russia or France.[43] On 3 July, the Saxon military attaché in Berlin reported that the German General Staff "would be pleased if war were to come about now".[44]
    Kaiser Wilhelm II came to share the views of the German General Staff and declared on 4 July that he was entirely for "settling accounts with Serbia".[42] He ordered the German ambassador in Vienna, Count Heinrich von Tschirschky, to stop advising restraint, writing that "Tschirschky will be so good to drop this nonsense. We must finish with the Serbs, quickly. Now or never!".[42] In response, Tschirschky told the Austro-Hungarian government that same day that "Germany would support the Monarchy through thick and thin, whatever action it decided to take against Serbia. The sooner Austria-Hungary struck, the better".[45] On 5 July 1914, Count Moltke, the Chief of the German General Staff, wrote that "Austria must beat the Serbs".[43]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_C...atum_to_Serbia

    And I'm not judging you, I'm truly not. As I've said repeatedly, Germany seeks to dominate Europe through the EU. Not through military force. I've only referenced the past as other times that Germany has tried to dominate your continent. I only reference to point out that Germany has never intended to just be friends. They want a sphere of influence under their control. I'm sorry that that offends you so much, but that is the reality of things. I am not European, but if another country were trying to dominate America, either through the economy or military force, I would readily stand against it. So, in this situation, I felt the need to point out that Germany's intentions are not pure when they declare that "Europe" is on it's own. This is a power play, pure and simple.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Therionn View Post
    I am not European, but if another country were trying to dominate America, either through the economy or military force, I would readily stand against it. So, in this situation, I felt the need to point out that Germany's intentions are not pure when they declare that "Europe" is on it's own. This is a power play, pure and simple.
    And since you're not European, your opinion is really just your opinion. And that is the essence of what Merkel just told the world. That Europe can and probably should consider thinking about itself and its future role on this planet. And not care about what people like you think.
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  19. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Austrians not devastated by the loss of their heir apparent? Go ahead, kill Prince William and see if that doesn't toss England into a full fledged berserker rage. But whatever, let's assume you're right in your paranoid fear of Germany. Go ahead and judge us. Judge us on our merits, however. Not what people 100-200 years ago did. If you can't even do that, then I honestly don't give a fuck what you think. Because quite honestly, you're in the minority.

    And the good thing about that? We're quite happy being the good guys. Why should we conquer anyone? For what? We have everything we need, as a nation we are more adverse to warfare than peace talks. We're the ones pressing for diplomatic options. We're the ones that call out Bush's administration for bullshitting their way into a war. Where you from, dude? Because I'm beginning to get curious. Better make it a country that has a particularly clean sheet, because if I find so much as a speck of dirt on it, I'll rub your nose in it. :P
    I'd likely agree with you on many of the terrible things that America has done in it's history. With that being said, we didn't start two world wars.

    I don't blame you for Germany's actions, pal. I'm simply stating that Germany has never had pure intentions when it comes to Europe. They're a big and powerful country in the middle of a continent. They want a sphere of influence, and they want to control their surroundings. They want a strong EU and Europe dominated by Germany. And it seems like this is the most likely scenario for the EU. So, as I said before, any country going along for the ride is just going to end up in the back seat. And I stand by that.

    And that's not to say that US is pure when it comes to it's influence on other countries. But in Europe, our influence is much less intrusive than Germany's.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    And since you're not European, your opinion is really just your opinion. And that is the essence of what Merkel just told the world. That Europe can and probably should consider thinking about itself and its future role on this planet. And not care about what people like you think.
    That's fine. They should also consider if they want that role to be under the rule of Germany.

  20. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therionn View Post
    I'd likely agree with you on many of the terrible things that America has done in it's history. With that being said, we didn't start two world wars.

    I don't blame you for Germany's actions, pal. I'm simply stating that Germany has never had pure intentions when it comes to Europe. They're a big and powerful country in the middle of a continent. They want a sphere of influence, and they want to control their surroundings. They want a strong EU and Europe dominated by Germany. And it seems like this is the most likely scenario for the EU. So, as I said before, any country going along for the ride is just going to end up in the back seat. And I stand by that.

    And that's not to say that US is pure when it comes to it's influence on other countries. But in Europe, our influence is much less intrusive than Germany's.

    - - - Updated - - -



    That's fine. They should also consider if they want that role to be under the rule of Germany.
    Germany isn't a fucking hive mind. The Germans are a collection of humans, just like every other country on the planet. And just like every other human on the planet, they value stability and resources. If the country is getting too powerful (or whatever crock of shit you're pushing), it's the fault of those around them for being lazy and/or corrupt (looking at you, Italy, Greece, Spain, Portugal, most of Eastern Europe) or isolationist (GB). Nothing is being taken by force.

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