After G7 summit, Merkel: "Europe Must Plot Own Course"

[Mittens]

Russia doesn't want the sanctions lifted they are doing just fine and getting better by the year.

o_O Unless they really like making their citizens suffer, I don't see why would Russia not want its sanctions lifted.

[JohnBrown1917]

Those are the facts. If America didn't step in during WW2 all of Europe would be either controlled by Nazi Germany, controlled by the USSR, or continue being a bunch of warring states. We forced peace in Europe through defeating the Nazi's and establishing NATO.

Feel free to believe that fairy tail, I have intrest in this if you don't even know the basics of European history and the EU.

[Deleted]

As I said before, judging today's Germany requires a new perspective and that isn't based in history. If history however is your chosen base then it shall be so. German kingdoms trying to dominate is an inherited tradition going back as far as Charlemagne and by that extent the Roman Empire. So if domination is your main gripe then I'd like to state that it is not a purely German invention and that domination has been the name of the game in the interim period of the Cold War and beyond that through ideologies, economical and political influence and military presence by various powers. It has never been of purely altruistic motives. Claiming Germany's intentions are always more sinister in nature due to WWII is not really supported by any rationale given the extent of which Germany has been transformed.

There is no denying that Wilhelminian Germany sought dominance through military approach. However back then the last major war in Europe was more than a century ago and different conducts and doctrines based on centuries old codes were the rule. That the war escalated the way it did was a tragedy. However dominance itself was never the culprit in all this. No major European power went by without trying to gain influence. So it should be judged by its effects with regards to whether these effects would be universally rejected.

I've said that everyone wants to be on top, so I agree with you on that. My point was that Germany has, and still wishes to dominate Europe. They wish to dominate through the use of the EU. They are obviously making a power play by saying, "hey come with us, not America". Why would they want that? Because they're big, they're economically powerful, and they have the perfect real estate seeing that they're right in the center... Oh, and because the USA is calling them out on their trade practices (currently their greatest strength). Because like any country they use their assets to benefit themselves to the best of their ability.

Now here's my argument. America has been better for Europe. We have protected them, and we have ensured independence for European countries. And we will continue do so. All we ask for is a free and open market. Germany on the other hand asks for your borders, your internal laws, your economic policies, and your independence.

[Combatbutler]

In the end every country, including America, wishes to be on top. Some are more intrusive about it than others. The US only asks for a free and open market, and a bulwark against Russia rising as a super power again.

Indeed and no nation is as intrusive and abusive as the US in that regard, if they don't like the direction a nation is taking they are not beneath assassination of undesirables, inciting civil wars, installing dictators, or plain and simply declaring war.

[JohnBrown1917]

I've said that everyone wants to be on top, so I agree with you on that. My point was that Germany has, and still wishes to dominate Europe. They wish to dominate through the use of the EU. They are obviously making a power play by saying, "hey come with us, not America". Why would they want that? Because they're big, they're economically powerful, and they have the perfect real estate seeing that they're right in the center. Because like any country their assets to benefit themselves to the best of their ability. Now here's my argument. America has been better for Europe. We have protected them, and we have ensured independence for European countries. And we will continue do so. All we ask for is a free and open market. Germany on the other hand asks for your borders, your internal laws, your economic policies, and your independence.

Just... jesus fucking christ on stuck... holy hell

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Indeed and no nation is as intrusive and abusive as the US in that regard, if they don't like the direction a nation is taking they are not beneath assassination of undesirables, inciting civil wars, installing dictators, or plain and simply declaring war.

Good ol' Pinochet.
Thankfully our Willem Drees was not too socialist for the US.

[Deleted]

Indeed and no nation is as intrusive and abusive as the US in that regard, if they don't like the direction a nation is taking they are not beneath assassination of undesirables, inciting civil wars, installing dictators, or plain and simply declaring war.

Are you talking about our battle against communism? Guess what, everyone in NATO was involved. If you're talking about today, well, none of that really has anything to do with Europe. America has done some bad things with it's power, but we've only done good by Europe. You don't see us telling Europe what to do with it's borders, it's internal laws/policies, etc. The only thing we really ask for is a free/open market.

[Mittens]

Just... jesus fucking christ on stuck... holy hell

I mean is there even a doubt that Germany leads the EU or that the ECB does what Germany wants?

[PersephoneDankles]

I"m no expert on this, but if I was a senior official in the Russian government, I think I'd be enjoying the way President Trump is trying to disrupt NATO and the EU.

[JohnBrown1917]

I mean is there even a doubt that Germany leads the EU or that the ECB does what Germany wants?

Well, its false, if thats what you mean.

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Are you talking about our battle against communism? Guess what, everyone in NATO was involved. If you're talking about today, well, none of that really has anything to do with Europe. America has done some bad things with it's power, but we've only done good by Europe. You don't see us telling Europe what to do with it's borders, it's internal laws/policies, etc. The only thing we really ask for is a free/open market.

While the president wants to stop german car imports.

...sure ...sure

[Combatbutler]

Are you talking about our battle against communism? Guess what, everyone in NATO was involved. If you're talking about today, well, none of that really has anything to do with Europe. America has done some bad things with it's power, but we've only done good by Europe. You don't see us telling Europe what to do with it's borders, it's internal laws/policies, etc. The only thing we really ask for is a free/open market.

You abused your power and that is all that matters and you have done it quite a few times, so why are you trustworthy? Quite simply you aren't and now with cheeto chip in charge it is quite obvious that the US is even more unreliable in at least the next four years, since the american people actually voted for that thing, hoping for their better judgement in the near future isn't a gamble a nation can take. So yeah.

And only asking for a free market, you can't be serious cheeto chip in command intends to raise extra taxes for some non american products and if that idiot actually follows through with that little gem what do you think the consequences will be, right a trade war and hopefully it really hurts.

And never forget this is Merkel we are talking about an americanophile.

[Mittens]

Well, its false, if thats what you mean.

The ECB is copying Germany's economic policy of balanced budgets, despite it being harmful to a good chunk of countries in the EU.

[Kiri]

Did I say it was your only goal? I don't think so. I think Germany wants to dominate Europe because it's beneficial to Germany. It's better for the German economy, and therefore better for your people. So I think your leaders, as in Angela Merkel, want to benefit their country. And I think that domination of Europe through the EU is the path they're moving forward with. I don't think Merkel stood up and said, "Europe's on it's own" because she wants to help Europe. She did it because she's trying to convince Europe to come under the influence of Germany. It's a powerplay, and it's only fair that the alarm is sounded. That it is put out to other European countries that they have a choice. They don't have to be under the control of Germany's European Union. They can fight it.

In the end every country, including America, wishes to be on top. Some are more intrusive about it than others. The US only asks for a free and open market, and a bulwark against Russia rising as a super power again. Germany asks for your internal laws, your borders, and your entire economy, and through all of that your independence. That's the real choice that's being presented. Trump's a terrible President. But I don't think all of Europe wants to or should cede it's independence because of that.

But that is the thing - the EU has always also constrained Germany. We would do much better economically, without the Euro for example (and there are and were harsh Euro critics in Germany). Bailing out Greece? Did not benefit Germany much at all. A simple free trade agreement would have been much more beneficial to Germany than the cumbersome beast of the EU.
The truth of the matter is, and that is likely something you cannot understand because you lack our history - we Germans oftentimes do not feel like Germans. After WW2, everyone told us to never be proud of our nation, since that line of thinking had led to some of the worst events in history. When there doesn't happen to be a soccer world cup on or anything like that, you will barely see any German flags, either. Our relationship to national pride is highly dysfunctional, only barely allowed when it comes to sports as a deeply ingrained form of self-censorship.

But the EU, the EU is basically what we were allowed to identify. To many Germans, the EU doing well means we do well. The EU having problems means we have problems. And that is precisely what most people wanted from Germany - integrate, tolerate, cooperate. I think they just did not want us to do it to this extent. Kind of like you seem creepy when you are too much into someone. We want the EU to succeed, so we do what we can to achieve that. The fact that, due to our size and economy we have a rather big say in it was certainly convenient. It is a lot easier to identify with a supranational body when you are not marginalized by it. But, I reckon, really liking the system you are in and wanting it to expand and succeed is, to an outsider, indistinguishable from using it as a vehicle for one's own ambition.

A few things though.
- there is no need to fight it. Any EU member can leave at any time. And don't give me 'GB has to pay up' thing - that is not for allowing them to leave, that is wanting to settle outstanding scores before talking trade
- The US asks for more than a free and open market at the moment, that is kind of the problem. It asks everyone else to take on climate change on their own. It asks to be able to freely sell its goods to others, but talks trade hurdles for imports. It does not reaffirm article 5, but expects others to be a bulwark against Russia nonetheless. It wants the EU to break up. Those are reasons as to why some in Europe feel left alone by the US.
- The EU (and in your opinion therefore by extent Germany) does not ask for internal laws, borders or economy. What it asks for are unified standards that should be upheld by all members, and which are usually agree upon democratically. You may call it undemocratic because it concerns nation states, but America too has a similar system. Federal laws, free movement, an interconnected economy largely affected by the same standards. The only differences are in degrees of homogeneity, historical development and intensity. But ultimately, you are currently more integrated than we are, so it always comes across as a tad bit hypocritical.

[Shadowferal]

Yeah, no. The US just confirmed that they would not loosen sanctions. I think the US is still not in Russia's camp.

It's less about sanctions and more about overall influence.
Putin wants Trump to muddy everything up...and he's doing a fine job of that so far.

[Kallisto]

Clearly you don't, buddy. You have no idea why ww1 started, and you downplay the holocaust with "that doesn't matter". These forums come to a new low when you have a mod downplaying the holocaust.

No you have no idea on how WW1 started. You bought into the whole BS that came out right after Versaille that no historian worth their salt agrees with.

Austria-Hungary had their heir killed by a Terrorist that had clear links to Serbian leadership. If the Revolutionary guard from Iran assassinated the President or Vice President of the US you can guarantee the US would invoke Article 5 and drag NATO into a war with Iran within a month. Austria did what any other state would have done at the time or even today.

Russia mobilized. Nicholas and Wilhelm went into diplomatic mode (Willy/Nicky telegrams.) with Wilhelm going as far as willing to sell out Austria if Russia only mobilized half of their forces. When that became apparent that Russian Generals were not going to allow this he started sending Telegrams to France asking if they would remain neutral in what was going to be a Russian/German war.

France ignored and ignored until it was too late. They did so knowingly because they were wanting to strike at Germany for the loss of the Franco-Prussian war (A war in which France started btw), trying to retrieve Alsace & Lorraine. France had also already mobilized and fortified their own border with Germany. (Mobilization is considered a declaration of war back then) Wilhelm even asked Britain to get France to respond. That was how far he was going to avoid war.

Once France mobilized and fortified itself 10km from the German border that was when the war was inevitable. Germany couldn't afford to leave the back door open in the French side while fighting the much larger Russia. Schlieffen plan was activated, Germany did ask Belgium and Lux for passage. Belgium said no under pressure from Britain. Wilhelm then tried to stop Schlieffen but the Generals said it was too late.

The build up to WW1 was a cluster fuck. Austria doing what ever a country in their position would have done if the second most important member of the country was assassinated by a foreign state.

Wilhelm actually trying to contact basically everyone to get people to act sane.

Nicholas being told he couldn't Mobilize only against Austria by his generals (Even Rasputin tried to avoid this war by also pleading to semi mobilize)

France ignoring all German requests on its intentions and mobilizing. If France had just told Germany it was staying out then it would have been a local war in eastern europe only. Likely just been called 3rd Balkans war.

The Franco-German border being so fortified it would be suicide to march through. Even though in a state of War between France/Russia on one side and Germany/Austria on the other France needed to be knocked out quickly.

Belguim with Britain pulling the strings saying no to letting Germany through. Meant that Kaiser tried to stop the planned invasion. Even then in Germany's case any other plan war with France would have been suicidal.

No Germany wasn't to blame. A Geopolitical nightmare plus prideful generals looking for a good scrap were to blame, plus a terrorist group funded by the highest levels of Serbian government.

[Noradin]

Germany's past domination was based in Prussian militarism.[...]

Did you pick up that nice piece of post war propaganda on your own or do you get paid for telling it?

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No, pal, I just know my history.

Yes, it is everyone else who did not know the version you came up with.

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Pure majority rule is a terrible form of Democracy. And these are individual AND sovereign countries we are talking about. They can be dominated by Germany due to Germany having a larger population, and therefore, having a larger say in the EU. Not only that, but Germany has already used it's economic leverage to force countries to do it's bidding. I'm sorry, but Democracy is not about dominating other sovereign countries.

Did you post in the wrong thread? Wrong forum (hopefully)?
Why do you bring up "pure majority rule"?
The EU does not us a FPTP system, the state that still insist on doing so is currently in the process of leaving.

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I've said that everyone wants to be on top, so I agree with you on that. My point was that Germany has, and still wishes to dominate Europe. They wish to dominate through the use of the EU.

You think everyone thinks exactly like you and that is why get wonky narratives all the time, got it.

[Ravenblade]

Saying Germany has transcended its modern (read: country's founding to 1944) role as "force that periodically destabilizes the Continent" is effectively impossible to prove. I'd argue that German reunification has already begun to destabilize politics on the Continent, from a point as early as the Hartz reforms of the German labor market from 2002-2005.

It is equally impossible to prove that two divided Germanys would make a hell of a difference. If any the natural convergence on issues due to very close cultural bonds would still create similar issues. That the Hartz 4 reforms did make a lot of impact especially on wage policies and the gap between haves and have-nots that I agree on however I think it stems from two issues: The continent watched closely and expected a lot of the newly unified Germany, it was called the sick man of Europe for not properly taking its leading economic role dragging the whole continent down with it. Schröder picked up where Kohl left, that out of all a socialdemocrat chancellor had to the job of a conservative one gave the socialdemocrat party a heavy blow in credibility which still echoes on and is one of the reasons why parties like the AfD now thrive happily. I am quite happy to agree on that, however Germany had to agree on the introduction of the Euro has currency in exchange for getting a Oui! from France for the reunification. Socialists like Gregor Gysi in Germany argued in the 1990s that you can never unify a continent via money but since the treaties were already made what other choice did Schröder have than to commit to it when he came to power?

I've said that everyone wants to be on top, so I agree with you on that. My point was that Germany has, and still wishes to dominate Europe. They wish to dominate through the use of the EU. They are obviously making a power play by saying, "hey come with us, not America". Why would they want that? Because they're big, they're economically powerful, and they have the perfect real estate seeing that they're right in the center... Oh, and because the USA is calling them out on their trade practices (currently their greatest strength). Because like any country they use their assets to benefit themselves to the best of their ability.

Now here's my argument. America has been better for Europe. We have protected them, and we have ensured independence for European countries. And we will continue do so. All we ask for is a free and open market. Germany on the other hand asks for your borders, your internal laws, your economic policies, and your independence.

The EU is not an union that was not founded to eschew or embrace the USA, it was founded on several pillars and one important being that by bringing former hostile European nations closer to work across economic and other boundaries they would understand eachother a lot better than in the years where borders were shut, anything behind the enemy and whatever ghastly events are happening there you better read in the newspaper. France and Germany grew a lot closer and nobody would ever really say either side is the arch-enemy or nemesis today. Germany's dominating stance was usually balanced by France and the UK. In the wake of the economical crisis in 2008 there was a standstill as the clock was ticking until everyone ask why Germany didn't just take the lead. I found it concerning then to ask Germany outright to take the helm but there it was. Anyway, I don't think Merkel literally said to break with the US but that European nations shouldn't constantly be at the US' whim, after all the US isn't just only there to be friendly as indicated by the NSA spying affairs but to ensure their own will and by that extent their dominance too and unlike Obama Trump doesn't have the full picture or even the basic understanding of what makes the European nations or the EU tick. The US is more hostile than ever under Trump and Merkel simply concluded instead of waiting for them to come to their minds they should pursue their own path instead.

As for calling out Germany's trade practices, whilst there is a kernel of truth to it, it isn't something that Trump has come to conclusion, it is something that people like Paul Krugman have lambasted Germany for since ages. The solution for that isn't simply trying to play a few rounds of hold-your-hands-in-boiling-water but it is German domestic one and that it doesn't come over night should be quite clear. It is unlikely to get a remedy in the next future as German population's average age is increasing and consumer demands shifting even more.

Did you pick up that nice piece of post war propaganda on your own or do you get paid for telling it?

Unless you can call historians like Wolfram Wette being propagandists then it's on the house. Seriously, we can discuss the finer historical details later. For what it's worth I realize it isn't just not that clear-cut but it is for the most part true and due to reasons of brevity I decided to put it upfront in order to emphasize the mental and cultural differences between Imperial Germany and today's Germany, ignoring WWII which just utilized the effect of trained minds acknowledging the value of subservience and obedience.

[CostinR]

I'll believe it when I see it. Merkel is the most pathetic leader I've ever seen. She can be everything and anything just for a political win and if this is more then just talk then that would be something.

If she really wants to make a strong EU state I'm all for it. How ironic that it might be Trump's presidency that allows that to finally happen.

[Mayhem]

If Germany wants to plot their own course let them, just don't have everyone else crash and burn with you. How are those No-go zones coming along in Germany by the way? This video was taken in France but since Germany took over 1 million economic refugees i'm sure it applies there as well

All of germany is a no-gone zone pretty much, it's terrible and there are no News about it. The Government is keeping every news channel from reporting it, locking them up here and there. It's literally communist socialist apocalypsy, literally.

[Slant]

Pure majority rule is a terrible form of Democracy. And these are individual AND sovereign countries we are talking about. They can be dominated by Germany due to Germany having a larger population, and therefore, having a larger say in the EU. Not only that, but Germany has already used it's economic leverage to force countries to do it's bidding. I'm sorry, but Democracy is not about dominating other sovereign countries.

So, basically you've just said democracy is bad. I think I'll rest my case here. Nothing you say will bring any value to this thread. We're done. You have a good time, buddy.

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All of germany is a no-gone zone pretty much, it's terrible and there are no News about it. The Government is keeping every news channel from reporting it, locking them up here and there. It's literally communist socialist apocalypsy, literally.

Just say the truth man. We are prisoners in our own homes.

[Arunu]

Those are the facts. If America didn't step in during WW2 all of Europe would be either controlled by Nazi Germany, controlled by the USSR, or continue being a bunch of warring states. We forced peace in Europe through defeating the Nazi's and establishing NATO.

How about no, pick up a non MAGA history book will you ? how about not downplaying everybody's efforts and spout the baseless tripe it was all you.

the USA was pre dominantly active in the pacific theater, when you noticed Russia was finally kicking Germany's behind after years of losing did you start looking upon Europe.
I do not mean to downplay the USA's role, it was big and we probably would have fought for many more years without them but don't dismiss everybody else and claim it was all you, it wasn't, not even close.