Should iLvL below Mythic Raiding Max out BELOW Mythic Base?

[primalmatter]

I have two 920 titanforges, but they are both from M+ weekly chests, not heroic raids. This is on a character that doesn't do M raids but has cleared H NH.

Criticism of the M+ system seems less inept than criticism of the raid loot -forging system.

Can I critize both though? I strongly believe tbc and early cata had the best reward models. In the end I feel that garuneeted successful runs has to end for content past normal. It just creates this weird race to the finish where most players start at the finish line.

[Tradu]

I have two 920 titanforges, but they are both from M+ weekly chests, not heroic raids. This is on a character that doesn't do M raids but has cleared H NH.

Criticism of the M+ system seems less inept than criticism of the raid loot -forging system.

M+ suffers from 2 primary issues: no lockouts and WF/TF. One of those is the topic of this thread.

[primalmatter]

I have two 920 titanforges, but they are both from M+ weekly chests, not heroic raids. This is on a character that doesn't do M raids but has cleared H NH.

Criticism of the M+ system seems less inept than criticism of the raid loot -forging system.

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Indeed, WildStar showed that keeping the great majority of undeserving players in their subservient place is the way to go.

Oh wait. WildStar actually showed that's a horrible failing idea.

You should play wildstar.

I haven't met a single person who has that used that argument. If anything legion is closer to wildstar then any other wow expac it had a insane grind to get talents similar to how ap works now...

[Lady Dragonheart]

Its like you totally missed the post I made like a page before you typed this out.

I also have legitimately no idea what mythic raiders you've been talking to. In the years since they introduced warforging I've heard nothing but complaints about raid gear simply gaining that extra boost and a collective groan about rng/TF/sockets when they moved it beyond just the little increase that ToT had. Procs for your more casual players are fine but crazy loot rng swings do not make anyone who wants to be competitive in one way or another happy. Its two different mentalities. If it were up to me everyone would have the same gear and the difference would simply be how good you are at the game. Loot was never fun for people like me.

These accusations weren't generally made by the mythic crowd, though. They were made by those that usually raid, but at the flex and normal level, at best. As I mentioned, before. No one can bring proof to the table that the majority of the mythic crowd has these complaints at the level that people make them out to be. The people making them are, most of the time, non-mythic raiders.

[Tradu]

Indeed, WildStar showed that keeping the great majority of undeserving players in their subservient place is the way to go.

Oh wait. WildStar actually showed that's a horrible failing idea.

If only there was a middle ground. Oh shit, there is a middle ground, the one that WoW had for years with a very clear path for getting into raiding.

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These accusations weren't generally made by the mythic crowd, though. They were made by those that usually raid, but at the flex and normal level, at best. As I mentioned, before. No one can bring proof to the table that the majority of the mythic crowd has these complaints at the level that people make them out to be. The people making them are, most of the time, non-mythic raiders.

YOU are the one claiming that mythic raiders directly asked for WF/TF to be added. So far you've shown nothing to prove your claim, whereas you have at least 2 people who actually do/did raid mythic telling you that you're wrong based on their own experiences(including, you know, talking to a bunch of people who play the game in a similar way). People who raid mythic have been asking for a removal of WF/random sockets from mythic gear ever since it was added, because it servers absolutely no purpose at that level.
Its entire reason to exist at first was to incentivize doing 25man, which it did an okay job at with its +6 ilevels at the start, and then it transitioned over to being a way to allow worse players to experience harder content by slowly overgearing it by getting lots of WF gear. At the mythic level, there is no next level to gear up for and beat, you've already beaten the hardest difficulty, so the items dropping should be the final form by default. This was a common topic on Bay's FinalBoss episodes back in MoP, which you might know is a "high end raiding podcast"(at least that's the idea behind it), so there's plenty of examples of actual mythic(then heroic) raiders talking about how they dislike the system.

[Osmeric]

You should play wildstar.

The moment they went all #hardcore before release, I knew I would never ever play the game.

Initial uptake of the game was weak, and then activity crashed four times faster than it did for SW:TOR after its release. Players immediately realized WildStar was not a game for the average MMO player. Even those who managed to reach the end game raids realized #hardcore wasn't all it was cracked up to be.

You haven't met a single person who complained about WildStar's endgame? Really? I suppose I should have expected that. If you can maintain the delusion that the average player wants content in an MMO that excludes them, you must lead a very sheltered and lonely life.

[Tradu]

The moment they went all #hardcore before release, I knew I would never ever play the game.

Initial uptake of the game was weak, and then activity crashed four times faster than it did for SW:TOR after its release. Players immediately realized WildStar was not a game for the average MMO player. Even those who managed to reach the end game raids realized #hardcore wasn't all it was cracked up to be.

You haven't met a single person who complained about WildStar's endgame? Really? I suppose I should have expected that. If you can maintain the delusion that the average player wants content in an MMO that excludes them, you must lead a very sheltered and lonely life.

Luckily the only ones excluding people from WoW's endgame are those people themselves, and that has been the case for as long as I've played the game.

[MoanaLisa]

When you turn a game into a you win everytime and your business relies on long term subscription...well your gonna have a bad time.

Whatever players think about anything, World of Warcraft has not been a "bad time" for Blizzard since Sunwell badge gear came along.

It has and continues to mint money for Blizzard. There are lots of reasons to criticize how this or that was done but the quote borders on surreal with respect to the business that Blizzard has done with the game over the years.

[primalmatter]

The moment they went all #hardcore before release, I knew I would never ever play the game.

Initial uptake of the game was weak, and then activity crashed four times faster than it did for SW:TOR after its release. Players immediately realized WildStar was not a game for the average MMO player. Even those who managed to reach the end game raids realized #hardcore wasn't all it was cracked up to be.

You haven't met a single person who complained about WildStar's endgame? Really? I suppose I should have expected that. If you can maintain the delusion that the average player wants content in an MMO that excludes them, you must lead a very sheltered and lonely life.

O I have seen it but the problems with the end game were how much grinding was involved and how sparse it was.

Whenever someone talks about how "hard" wildstar was I know they never played it. The problem was it was hardcore in the sense of how much mindless grinding you had to do. It was roughly doing all of the hellfire dailies for everyday for nine months. You could not work ahead or make up for lost days either. It might of changed since going f2p but wildstar didn't fail from its difficulty it never really even got to that point.

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Whatever players think about anything, World of Warcraft has not been a "bad time" for Blizzard since Sunwell badge gear came along.

It has and continues to mint money for Blizzard. There are lots of reasons to criticize how this or that was done but the quote borders on surreal with respect to the business that Blizzard has done with the game over the years.

Of course not I was pointing out when rewards started to get out of hand. I don't think anyone would argue wow has and still is massively profitable. I was highlighting were the road to do lfr then unsub started.

[Sansnom]

When you turn a game into a you win everytime and your business relies on long term subscription...well your gonna have a bad time.

Well, Blizzard seems to disagree. The players still playing probably disagree.

[Aliven]

Dat feeling when you can see jaylock post just from the title...

[Deleted]

Seriously, these threads need to stop.

I raid nighthold HC myself and have cleared so with my guild 10+ times. The single most titanforged item ANYONE in our guild looted was coincidentally another warlock who found himself 915 tier gloves. Very pretty, and we are all happy for him. Nobody else, not a single person in our raid found an item higher than that. In more than 10 full clears.

Explain to me now, why would i wish that TF go away when i havent seen it happen on a regular basis? This argument goes for the majority of the playerbase. A high titanforge is just SO RARE, it just doesn`t happen often enough to cause a problem. Blizzard knows this, and thuss they used the system for legion as well, and keeps using it for the entire expansion. I mean, if you people are right and content gets devalued because of this, would they not fix it? Or even MENTION it? They DID NOT, AND WILL NOT. IT IS NOT AN ISSUE. IT ONLY IS IN YOUR MIND. PLEASE STOP.

This is nothing more than a poor african kid starving wanting to ban luxury cars because he`s not lucky enough to have one, dispite not having seen one in his entire life, his family and village not having one either but knowing SOMEWHERE, SOMEONE in the whole fucking world has a luxury car. Y`all know what kind of thing is responsible for this mindset.

[Accendor]

So the intent of the Warforge / Titanforge system was to give players the ability to perhaps find an upgrade from doing ANY type of content, whether it be WQ, Dungeons, Mythic Dungeons, LFR, Raids all the way up to Mythic.

The system as it stands now kind of devalues the higher raiding echelons especially with how frequently an item can warforge / titanforge.

Could the system be changed to still give players who don't do the highest difficulty / highest form of content the feeling that they can get an upgrade from any source of content that THEY do, without it feeling like a penalty?

So for example, lets say the warforge / titanforge system will allow ANY content below Mythic raiding (and a certain tier of Mythic+ dungeons) to be able to titanforge up to ilvl 895. But if you then participate in high level mythic+ dungeons, or Mythic raiding, the gear then starts at a base ilvl of 900 and can titanforge up to 925.

With this change, it would still feel to all players (even mythic raiders) that they can find upgrades for their character from any source, but also leaves incentive for people to really push into higher end challenging content, because if a mythic raider really wants better gear, then he has to be in mythic raiding to do so, and it rewards him accordingly as he kills bosses there.

Of course with each new tier of content the ilvl will be raised to match the tier, so the max ilvl titanforge below mythic Tomb would be raised to 5 ilvls below mythic tomb gear.

Current system is fine. Average itemlevel was below 870 a few weeks back where I as a mythic raider already was at 907. See no reason for change.

[keyone01]

Yes it should.
No, it will not, #retentionmechanics.

[Tradu]

Current system is fine. Average itemlevel was below 870 a few weeks back where I as a mythic raider already was at 907. See no reason for change.

If you think the average ilevel of the entire playerbase is at all relevant, you don't understand what the issue is with WF/TF.

[Deleted]

If you think the average ilevel of the entire playerbase is at all relevant, you don't understand what the issue is with WF/TF.

Thats the thing, there is no issue with it. This entire thread/subject should die out.

[Usagi Senshi]

Seriously, these threads need to stop.

I raid nighthold HC myself and have cleared so with my guild 10+ times. The single most titanforged item ANYONE in our guild looted was coincidentally another warlock who found himself 915 tier gloves. Very pretty, and we are all happy for him. Nobody else, not a single person in our raid found an item higher than that. In more than 10 full clears.

Explain to me now, why would i wish that TF go away when i havent seen it happen on a regular basis? This argument goes for the majority of the playerbase. A high titanforge is just SO RARE, it just doesn`t happen often enough to cause a problem. Blizzard knows this, and thuss they used the system for legion as well, and keeps using it for the entire expansion. I mean, if you people are right and content gets devalued because of this, would they not fix it? Or even MENTION it? They DID NOT, AND WILL NOT. IT IS NOT AN ISSUE. IT ONLY IS IN YOUR MIND. PLEASE STOP.

This is nothing more than a poor african kid starving wanting to ban luxury cars because he`s not lucky enough to have one, dispite not having seen one in his entire life, his family and village not having one either but knowing SOMEWHERE, SOMEONE in the whole fucking world has a luxury car. Y`all know what kind of thing is responsible for this mindset.

LOL, I have a piece of BBQ Dorito stuck in my nose after loling at that last bit you posted there! Your whole post describes Jaylock perfectly though; someone who cares too much about problems that aren't problems.

[bungie]

The system as it stands now kind of devalues the higher raiding echelons especially with how frequently an item can warforge / titanforge.

No it doesn't. That's just bullshit. If your self-esteem really hinges on whether or not other people have gear that has a similar item level to yours, that's your problem.

Of course it does, nice ad hominem though, if previously the only way to get a certain quality of gear was through mythic content and now you can get it else where it 100% devalues mythic content as that source of gear.

[Tharkkun]

I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say. Are you reaffirming my point? Yes, every time a new tier comes they have to go out of their way to make previous items irrelevant. And titanforging magnifies this problem since all previous items can titanforge even higher since the ilvl cap increases.

You say yourself correctly that they don't want people to be forced to run old content but titanforging forces people to do exactly that.

It's not to correct Titanforging. You don't ever see them going back and nerfing 5 man dungeon drops at all. They only buff the raid trinkets for the current raid as well as set bonuses and then nerf them once the new raid comes out if necessary. Those set bonuses had far more value then a couple of titanforged pieces which is why people mix Normal/LFR drops to meet 4 piece right now if they were unlucky.

Notice they didn't nerf every trinket and set bonus. Only the ones for certain class/specs that might be more beneficial then the new ones they thought of.

[Echocho]

Another purpose of -forging is to make each raid difficulty mode last longer for the audience for which it is intended. Your suggestion would break this.

Then don't hand out 6 pieces of gear per kill. 2 is more than enough. And then implement a lot of gear checks, problem solved.