Can secular people understand ISIS/Islamic Terrorism?

[Independent voter]

Did you take history in school or they don't teach history any more? ISIS is ex branch of Al'Queda that was "educated" back during Afgan War in 80s to fight USSR, guess who made it all possible?

Russia was in charge of Afghanistan in the 80's.

[Tic Tacs]

Russia was in charge of Afghanistan in the 80's.

Military presence doesn't mean in charge just like Vietnam, US won in Vietnam, no?

[Astalnar]

We're capable, but that does nothing because those in power are unwilling to take any serious measures in fear for their political carrier.

Huh, now that I think on it, that is exactly what Eye in the Sky is all about.

[h4rr0d]

Why should we need to understand them?
For all I care, over there, in the middle-east, they can do whatever the hell they want.
I don't even have issues with them coming over to visit, or to try and live a safer life. What I do have issues with though, is them rioting/starting fires/shooting up magazine offices over here every time someone says or does something they don't like. If they want to stay here, they must adhere to our set of rules, if they don't, they should be removed to wherever they came from, forcibly, or just plain removed if need be.

I however do believe, that it is not possible for us to understand them fully, just as it's not possible for us (western people) to understand fully any Asian culture or even European culture in early middle-ages (which is, what I think ISIS/Islam is closest to)

[Theodarzna]

That's their dogma. They still child rape, snort meth, and kill innocents, they just warp traditional interpretations and execute Islamic scholars of the Quran so it's "allowed".

To the best of my knowledge if you die a jihadi you actually are absolved of whatever earthly sins you commit. There actually is a incredible incentive to die like that because its a the ultimate get out of hell free card.

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Did you take history in school or they don't teach history any more? ISIS is ex branch of Al'Queda that was "educated" back during Afgan War in 80s to fight USSR, guess who made it all possible?

That doesn't change what ISIS stated beliefs are. Or the beliefs of any individual suicide attack.

[Independent voter]

Military presence doesn't mean in charge just like Vietnam, US won in Vietnam, no?

Osama Bin Laden went to Afghanistan to kill Russians, no?

[Damajin]

The Eagle never lost so much time as when it submitted to learn of the Crow.

[Tic Tacs]

Osama Bin Laden went to Afghanistan to kill Russians, no?

I don't know what his exact motives were, Bin Ladin is a very wealthy Saudi family with US connections, please do let me know.

[Deleted]

I don't know what his exact motives were, Bin Ladin is a very wealthy Saudi family with US connections, please do let me know.

Yes, but Osama was exiled. The bin Ladens are a very famous Saudi family. Actually, the Bush family are friends of them.

[Minikin]

5. They are nice and kind to other Muslims.

hubcap why. trust me, if they ever got their hands on me or other muslims like me, wed be at the chopping block with the reason sounding very similar to "not as muslim as us" "or doing islam wrong"

[Deleted]

To the best of my knowledge if you die a jihadi you actually are absolved of whatever earthly sins you commit. There actually is a incredible incentive to die like that because its a the ultimate get out of hell free card.

Absolution in Islam is usually preceded by repentance. Joining, or going through a jihad is virtuous, but not an act of repentance.

The closest you can get to that interpretation is the salafist view on jihad:
First of all, it's fard kifaya (community obligation). It being an obligation, makes those who do not join sinners. But if the community joins in enough numbers, then the obligation is fulfilled, and those who did not join are not burdened with sin, thus absolved.
That incentive doesn't exist: any other transgression they've committed is still a transgression in need of fixing. If we were to believe their point of view, they are simply remaining as not sinners for the one particular sin of not joining the jihad.

There's, of course, the issue that we don't all agree on which jihads are legitimate, or who is innocent. But the aforenoted is their in-universe rationale.

[Jastall]

The thing we also need to understand that Islamic terrorism, or even ISIS itself isn't a blob where everyone has one motivation and one mentality.

Yeah, the suicide bombers and probably motivated by pure fanaticism, hate, ignorance and/or mental problems more than anything else.

But the guys on the frontlines in Syria/Lybia? Who often act like thugs and warlords despite claiming virtue in official propaganda? Yeah, a chunk are fanatics, but there are also opportunists, sadists, violent or just plain broken men too in there. To say nothing of the desperate, the destitute, or those who basically aren't given a choice but serve or die.

And the leaders behind it all? The ones who stay back and direct operations? There's fanaticism there too, but the biggest motivation is probably power, like it always is. Terrorism is a political tool just like war is. Dismissing the entire thing as ''well there's religion heavily involved, so it's all about religion'' is misleading I think, and missing the forest for the trees. Humans gonna be humans no matter where they're born or what belief system they grow up in. We're not so different, and shit like ISIS is ultimately motivated by power and ruthlessness just as much as by ideological purity.

[Jimmy Woods]

Discuss, Are we incapable of understanding ISIS?

Watching the news, specifically right-wing news and right-wingers on social media lose their minds over the Manchester bombing, yes I can understand ISIS. All the calls for more bombings, calls to deport people based on their race/religion from countries, calls for treating those same groups as second class citizens combined with near daily bombings of civilians by the US and allies of Muslims in the Middle East, under Trump civilian casualties are already in the thousands, add in the tens of thousands from Obama and hundreds of thousands from Bush, it's not hard to see why ISIS is what ISIS is. The same mindset just different situations. Blowing oneself up and killing dozens of unsuspecting helpless people creates anger and hatred. Bombing unsuspecting helpless people from the sky also creates anger and hatred. Religion is just a branding tool they use to recruit and unite their members.

[Deleted]

What religious ideology would you say you subscribe to if I may ask? Would you call yourself secular?

Yes. I don't support any specific religious ideology.

[Machismo]

I'm still trying to figure out why the OP thinks it's somehow difficult to understand people, even if you do not share their ideology or mentality. It's not hard, you can see the brainwashing, you can see the hatred. Groups like ISIS are not a psychological mystery. They are using tactics that are nearly as old as humanity itself.

[Independent voter]

I don't know what his exact motives were, Bin Ladin is a very wealthy Saudi family with US connections, please do let me know.

Seems if your education was so much better you'd know. Osama bin Laden went to Afghanistan to kill Russians, the US didn't meet him until months later.

And before the Russians get mad, the Russians did the same to the US in Asia.

Russia started Al Qeada.

[Theodarzna]

Yes. I don't support any specific religious ideology.

Have to paused to consider that you are exhibiting exactly what I describe in my original post?

You are....

1) A secular person, theoretically in a Western country.
2) Unwilling to even consider that ISIS' stated religious motivations are genuine.

My OP is "Secular people are incapable of considering that ISIS might be being sincere in their religious motivations."

[Deleted]

Have to paused to consider that you are exhibiting exactly what I describe in my original post?

You are....

1) A secular person, theoretically in a Western country.
2) Unwilling to even consider that ISIS' stated religious motivations are genuine.

My OP is "Secular people are incapable of considering that ISIS might be being sincere in their religious motivations."

It's as inconceivable as admitting we invaded Iraq to bring democracy. It's naive to think groups playing politics at that scale move along silly populist ideologies.

[Theodarzna]

I have no doubt they're sincere in their religious beliefs and motivations. You don't blow yourself up because you're pretending. I just don't believe those religious motivations are a valid reason for their actions. I'm a long time atheist in the US.

I'm not asking if they are valid reasons, but I am asking is that we should consider that those are their sincere reasons.

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It's as inconceivable as admitting we invaded Iraq to bring democracy. It's naive to think groups playing politics at that scale move along silly populist ideologies.

So nobody is plausibly sincere in their motivations? Is this because you are personally not religious perhaps? I.E. you couldn't see yourself leading such a cause, or wanting to take part so you assume there must be more secular motivations?

[Deleted]

I'm not asking if they are valid reasons, but I am asking is that we should consider that those are their sincere reasons.

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So nobody is plausibly sincere in their motivations? Is this because you are personally not religious perhaps? I.E. you couldn't see yourself leading such a cause, or wanting to take part so you assume there must be more secular motivations?

Once again, if you're talking about single individuals, I'm sure there's people that really do believe that 70 virgins promise.
Isis as an international criminal organisation uses religion to recruit new members and justify their acts but their reasoning goes way beyond religious ideologies.