The praised content of BC and WotlK

[Lady Dragonheart]

Both BC and WOTLK were hated during their time. The people who claim they love them (and vanilla) often did not play during those times.

BC brought wellfare epics which was going to "ruin the game".

WOTLK brought casual raiding which was going to "ruin the game".

The one xpac which was actually much loved during it's time was MOP. I have played since 2005 (active during all xpacks) and MOP is by far my favorite. It combines the narrative focus of WOTLK and diverse (or hard if you wish) group content of BC.

It's not only that, but the whining about "Spaceships," "Blue Alien Goatmen," and "All my hard-won raid gear was replaced by leveling greens" came up a hell of a lot of the time.

Then, in WotLK, "WTF, no-space theme, just build spaceships and wreck these primitive races on Northrend," "Everything on Northrend isn't pretty and bright like they were on Outland," and "Reskinned Naxx, killing the game to spite the hardcore crowd that did it for real while copy-pasting content and calling it new content."


It was everywhere. However, when you break it down, these are essentially the same types of players that simply don't want things to ever change.

[satimy]

Content isn't the be all end all

Legion has lots of content, perhaps the most ever. However their class design is shit, something straight out of Diablo

[Deleted]

Christmas when I was 5 was 100% better (it was more fun). Christmas now is boring as fuck.

What kind of analogy is that? lol

[Deleted]

What kind of analogy is that? lol

The guy says pvp was better back then cause it was more fun. He thinks it was better back then cause of nostalgia.

[Deleted]

Said it many times before. People look fondly back on the first 2 expansions as there was a community. There is no community anymore. It has little to do with the actual gameplay. Most are right the content wasn't as great as people thought it was. It was purely the fact that you knew the people you were playing with. Hell everyone knew everyone on my server. The community was huge!

Since the community aspect was destroyed with group finding tools (though admittedly i love/hate them) the game just became a bit of a farm fest.

[Enitzu]

What I love about Legion is that it's clearly trying to address these issues.

I agreed with everything you said till this ...

How is legion fixing the difficulty? Mythic+? It's not the same at all. Matter of fact, outside of the 1 high end mythic+ a week you actually may want to do the only other reason to really even do them is AP and even then it's maw2017 till your eyes bleed for fast AP. Mythic raids provide some challenge but the challenge more comes from having to find, and keep, 20-25 non retards showing up which is quite a challenge now a days since they have so completely screwed up so many guilds over the years. Hell with the upgrading system it's almost just better to find 10+ people you like and just do Heroic, which is still totally faceroll

[h4rr0d]

You are right, there is plenty to do, even on a single character.
The issue is, pretty much everything outside of NH raid you can do feels really unrewarding and insignificant as chances of progressing your character while doing the stuff are really low. And for some reason it's nowhere near as fun as weekly KZ run was in TBC.

[Deleted]

WoW was fine until Cataclysm and 10 man raiding come
Before we was prety big group of IRL friends who do everything now i`m lone wolf even that my Bnet is filled with friends i never saw any of them IRL and beside that there was alot of fun in the game itself who get broken later expansions
Whatever blizzard do now they will not return these days

[Shadowsgrace]

Both BC and WOTLK were hated during their time. The people who claim they love them (and vanilla) often did not play during those times.

BC brought wellfare epics which was going to "ruin the game".

WOTLK brought casual raiding which was going to "ruin the game".

The one xpac which was actually much loved during it's time was MOP. I have played since 2005 (active during all xpacks) and MOP is by far my favorite. It combines the narrative focus of WOTLK and diverse (or hard if you wish) group content of BC.

I beg to differ here, I started my Raiding Career in TBC, Myself and all my friends, some who still play, and some who no longer, all Enjoyed TBC during TBC, I still prefer TBC to this day over all the other expacs. Sure each one added to the game as a whole in their own right, making it easier to level alts, gear alts, maxing Professions, etc...Making the Game what it is today. But your claims, at least from my perspective were invalid when you said, "WOTLK brought casual raiding which was going to 'ruin the game', and The one xpac which was actually much loved during it's time was MOP." Wrath did not "start casual raiding" as you put it, that was Cata with LFR. Wrath still required that you kinda knew, or at least watched a vid to bluff your way through a raid, also one of the last expacs that "Realm Rep" still prevented known asshats from pugging. While MoP Did start fixing some of the issues that started to creep up from the depths in Cata, mostly dealing with LFR Needing loot just to have "trade bait" at the end. It planted the seeds of one of the most regrettable aspects of Wow... "Wowville".The most hated part of WoD next having to unlock flying, was the garrison farm, that got it's start in MoP... remember Halfhill, and your farm there? Anyway it all come down to personal tastes, and there is no Right or wrong when it comes to what people like, when they liked it, or for what reasons. Everyone is entitled to their opinions.

[Stormspellz]

Nostalgia and nostalgia only. Anyone who claims that those expansions were objectively better is delusional.

wouldn't say simply nostalgia, if those two expansions happened today, yes they wouldn't be praised as much, but they didn't come out today, they came out a decade ago, a freaking decade ago. Legion has made improvements to wow, that is undeniable, but at the end of the day its the same train track content with different skins we had back then. The difference of back then, server community was a thing, quecraft wasn't a thing, classes didn't feel a shell of their former self, ect.

[Eazy]

Nostalgia and nostalgia only. Anyone who claims that those expansions were objectively better is delusional.

You're probably one of the people who say that twilight was better than Nosferatu, because "Old vampires? People liked them better because of nostalgia, now we have nice CGI, characters are better made and the story is awesome".

[clevin]

If anyone says that those two expansions were perfect they're delusional but each did have good points that we've not seen in years.

TBC had relevant five mans for a good chunk of the first year and for some people who raided little or not at all, they were viable endgame content for even longer. Rather than being rush rush, 10 minutes is too long! instances, they could take 45-60 minutes. Without a queue you were likely playing with people you knew, so that could be fun rather than a chore (it could be a chore TOO sometimes...). It also brought Kara, one of the better raids they've done and a raid that let smaller guilds see some raid content. Specs could be mixed and matched (my rogue ran a shadowstep sword build... ). Downsides? Sure. After Kara, you needed 25 people to continue raiding until ZA came out. The latter part of the expac was content light in some ways (IoQ being the obvious exception). Specs were more niche which was good and bad (in a raid my shadowpriest was valued for her mana battery utility but her DPS was 30% below other casters.)

LK was more valued for the story than the execution. DPS all ended up being an AOE fest but the instances were generally good and despite whining from people about Naxx the fact is that almost no one had seen it (including most of the whiners) and it fit the theme well. Having Arthas appear here and there was an improvement over Illidan in TBC where we never saw him unless we got to him in BT. Ulduar and ICC were good raids, too and the ICC 5 mans were excellent additions.

Perfect? No, neither was that. Very good? Yes, especially if you PVEed with friends.

[MagusHenosis]

The game was more complex and deeper back then.....

[ShaanuJaanu]

Nostalgia and nostalgia only. Anyone who claims that those expansions were objectively better is delusional.

not exactly...


Raids were less complex for sure.

TBC dungeons were NOT relevant at all, once you started raiding. They did include one 5 man with Sunwell that gave you some "catch up" gear. Unlike AP/Titanforging gear, they gave you badge of justice which werent all that useful if you were raiding.

There are far more QoL features now than ever before, XRealm, Area Loot, Raid Finder.. etc but that can have adverse effect on players who don't like these things and would rather expand on community etc.


But classes now definitely are dumbed down in a sense that now you can do MORE with LESS.

You needed a raid comp to work well in order to synergise all your buffs/debuffs..which is something they got rid of with the "bring the player not the class" mentality.

Sense of progression was lost, you can now step into NH without having done any previous raids..likewise you can get into Tomb without having done any NH content at all. You had to go step by step in BC due to not only the gear requirement but also the attunement requirements. - Yes I understand that some people hated it.

Gear scaling is out of control - We doubled our DPS in one tier, some classes tripled their DPS within ~25 ilvls - which again devalues progression due to these gear availablity outside of raids.

EDIT: you could DEFINITELY make a point of objectively better with sheer number of sub numbers alone, you don't have to prove anything else.

[Nnyco]

all content i remember doing in wotlk was a heroic every day for badge aswell as raiding

but ye thats rose tinted glasses for you

[Matthias]

I agreed with everything you said till this ...

How is legion fixing the difficulty? Mythic+? It's not the same at all. Matter of fact, outside of the 1 high end mythic+ a week you actually may want to do the only other reason to really even do them is AP and even then it's maw2017 till your eyes bleed for fast AP. Mythic raids provide some challenge but the challenge more comes from having to find, and keep, 20-25 non retards showing up which is quite a challenge now a days since they have so completely screwed up so many guilds over the years. Hell with the upgrading system it's almost just better to find 10+ people you like and just do Heroic, which is still totally faceroll

My point is Blizz had understood that this is a problem. For example Mythic+ as it is now at least reminds me of TBC Heroics in that you had to work with your team to accomplish the goal. Because if someone leave an M+ your screwed, so you can't really piss people off. It was similar in TBC if someone left it could take over an hour to find a replacement, you had to hearth back, spam LFG etc. Where as in the LFG you would just kick someone and hope the insta replacement was better. I learned alot in TBC needing to work with people in order to save us all the extra headache. Super high keys should make CC pull the mobs though . The pull was always the most dangerous part in Vanilla and TBC.

Both Legion and TBC therefore encouraged you to play with friends to ensure smoother runs.

Also yea, Legion is alt unfriendly as hell. I actually like this believe it or not. Vanilla and TBC you would have one alt if any. Hell the idea of leveling an alt in Vanilla for me was incomprehension-able due to the journey my first toon took to 60. If you had an alt you'd do a bit of Karazhan. Either they were there if your were bored, an altoholic that just liked leveling, or to just help out your friends. By the time of WoTLK it became hard to distinguish mains froms alts due to how easy it was to max gear them out for the level of content you did. In the days of Battlenet I have problems remembering people I've friended since they were never on the same damn toon, and I friend them, because I was impressed by the toon they were playing, and associate with said toons name.

I have 1 alt just about as geared as my main, but I'm normally on my main because there is something for me to always be getting on with. That's the way I think it should be. Whenever I logged on in TBC I had something to do on my main. So I find Legion reminiscent of that in this regard.

[KrotosTheTank]

It's largely nostalgia. To me, personally, as many have alluded to, i think the major hit the game took was a loss of "community". Once anonymity becomes the norm you're making it miles easier to be a troll. When people have reputations to uphold they tend to change their bad habits or at least embrace them and you know who they are. TBC was like looking back at and old family get together; you knew everyone, more or less and knew who to look up to, who to run with, who to avoid and you played the game. Today the content is objectively better and far more vast, but there are external pressures and a feeling of just having numbers to compare; if i don't have X then i can't do Y sort of thing. In TBC the mindset was people wanted to earn their way to BT, now people want to just have the best gear.

Players are also older, times change, perspectives change. Sounds too simple, but it applies to so much, it's just really difficult to be objective outside of our own sphere of perspective, this includes me as well ofc -____-

[micwini]

It was the quality of it, not the amount.

[Deleted]

Christmas when I was 5 was 100% better (it was more fun). Christmas now is boring as fuck.

Good for you.

[Deleted]

wouldn't say simply nostalgia, if those two expansions happened today, yes they wouldn't be praised as much, but they didn't come out today, they came out a decade ago, a freaking decade ago. Legion has made improvements to wow, that is undeniable, but at the end of the day its the same train track content with different skins we had back then. The difference of back then, server community was a thing, quecraft wasn't a thing, classes didn't feel a shell of their former self, ect.

Whole other topic of discussion. In their environment and current time both BC and Wrath were groundbreakingly awesome. But that's not being objectively better. If a game studio launched an MMO with all of BCs features (without BC ever having existed). Not a single person would say "fuck WoW, look at this new game with better features!".