BG Gear Scaling Problem

[IAMANIKOLAS]

Different classes, has different roles in BGs, and some classes/specs have an easier time stacking up damage, or KBs.

For instance, on my Shadow Priest I usually top the damage meters, from the spread pressure around nodes. On my hunter I usually have 10-15 KBs on average, due to the high single target burst. On my Rogue I play with a completely different mindset, and I try to be a disrupter, making healers/casters life a living hell through stuns, silence and slows, as well as peeling for my casters and healers. I average around 0-5 KBs with near bottom damage as Rogue.

So, if you play a class/spec revolved around spread pressure (Boomkin, Spriest, Afflock and more) you tend to top damage, by spreading your dots. If you play a class with high single-target burst damage (MM hunter, Frost/arcane mage, Destro lock and more) you tend to be high on the KB.

In regards of the scaling, I personally think that it is one of the best additions they have made to the game. When my hunter dinged 110, I bough AK 30, did a few wquests, and class quests (about 2-3 hours of active play) and I was able to PvP almost on par with most players right off the bat. You have never been able to do that in any expansion previously (correct me if i'm wrong, but I really don't recall). Of course I would love to have some sort of say in my preferences i.e. whether I would like to stack mastery, haste or crit.

The point of the scaling is to avoid people with 910+ ilvl is stomping a newly dinged ilvl 820 (post AP catch-up), however the 910+ will have some minor advantages for their gear, and artifact.

[Caolela]

In regards of the scaling, I personally think that it is one of the best additions they have made to the game. When my hunter dinged 110, I bough AK 30, did a few wquests, and class quests (about 2-3 hours of active play) and I was able to PvP almost on par with most players right off the bat. You have never been able to do that in any expansion previously (correct me if i'm wrong, but I really don't recall). Of course I would love to have some sort of say in my preferences i.e. whether I would like to stack mastery, haste or crit.

The point of the scaling is to avoid people with 910+ ilvl is stomping a newly dinged ilvl 820 (post AP catch-up), however the 910+ will have some minor advantages for their gear, and artifact.

The template system is one of the worst things they've ever put into PvP. It has little to do with "scaling" as it has been typically understood.

The fact is that as a newly dinged 110 you're put into a separate queue with other people that haven't capped their honor talents and have no artifact traits. This just furthers Blizz's lie that "gear doesn't matter". How convenient.

In past xpacs you could get full/near full CQ gear in a week with the catch-up cap and be equal to everyone else. GL with that now.

And for those like you who don't seem to understand the gearing/template/AP system in Legion PvP the way it actually works, here's a good explanation of it from Kagthul (post #122):

Now.. templates. Dear god, the misinformation. This one isn't directly solely at any one of you, because Blizzard makes the process completely opaque and doesn't document shit... but you're completely wrong in how it works.

Brief tutorial:

When you enter instanced PvP, your base statistics are raised to a certain iLevel floor. This is BEFORE your template is applied. It was 800 at launch, then raised to 850 in 7.1.5, and 900 in 7.2. What this means is that your base stats (Int, Stam, et al) are factored as if every item in your slots is an iLevel 900 stat-stick.

THEN your Template is applied. This is why, when you see Blizzard's tuning numbers, Templates are expressed in percentages. (ex - "Intellect reduced to 73%") It is setting your base stats, determined when you zoned in at iLevel 900, to that percentage of the base. Stam tends to be over 100%, primary stats are usually severely cut (which in turn reduces AP/SP). The Template also applies a bunch of invisible auras that affect your spells and abilities (self-healing on a lot of abilities is cut by a blanket percentage, tanks take 25% more damage, period, etc)

AFTER your Template is applied, bonus stats from your Artifact Traits (the traits themselves, not merely having them - so a Trait that adds 3% stam, like a Blood Death Knight's "Meat Shield", for instance, applies now, as well as any bonus stats from your Honor Talents.

THEN your bonus stam for traits is applied. The first 34 traits worth of bonus stam and the bonus Stamina (only) from the first skill on your new medallion are now granted gratis - but any traits anyone has above 34 still grant an additional .75% stam that a fresh 110 wont have. (At least up until the first point in Concordance of the Legionfall - Blizzard said there is now a "diminishing return" on stam gains from traits, but it is a solid .75% all the way up to the first point in Concordance, at the very least).

After all this, the bonus % gain from additional iLevels is added. This percentage bonus is calculated from iLevel 800. So, if you have iLevel 890, you have 9% bonus stats. And this is a blanket multiplier to all stats, including Stam.

And this isn't even factoring in the power differential granted by Artifact Traits themselves. A Blood DK, for instance, that has unlocked the new Medallion (Carrion Feast, Vampiric Aura, and Souldrinker) is heads and shoulders more powerful than one who hasn't. You cant even factor this in to some percentage-based evaluation - not that you need to, the raw mix is hard enough.

Blizz has it rigged so that the uninformed think it's OK at least when they first get started, yet when you look at the ladders they've been in virtual collapse since last season, not to mention the barren wasteland that LFG is - where it's near impossible to get even a half-decent pug. The reason for that is Legion's shitty, ill-designed template/RNG/AP system that has caused most of the middle to upper range of PvP'ers to quit Rated.

BUT...it is great for little Timmy the 12-year old road-fighting mongoloid to roll a 3-button spec, jump into a random and think he did something useful.

[Mafic]

Concordance procs so much now and lasts so long it is no longer a trivial DPS increase. Blizz lied again.

Even with the recent hotfix nerf of Concordance per trait it is still a must to be able to compete.

[Tic Tacs]

Concordance procs so much now and lasts so long it is no longer a trivial DPS increase. Blizz lied again.

Even with the recent hotfix nerf of Concordance per trait it is still a must to be able to compete.

Concordance works in BGs, what?!

[Kagthul]

Concordance works in BGs, what?!

Uhh... yeah.

All traits do. They even said that would be the case.

Did you not pay attention?

[WhippWhapp]

Repost from bnet forums :

"Credit goes to Kagthul and explains accurately the very opaque Legion PVP system which is a serious downgrade form WoD PVP system.

[quote]Well go backwards here.

The base iLevel of PvP gear is 860 right now. You -can- get some 870 ("Gladiator") pieces from WQs and rarely from a box in a random BG. Which is totally RNG if you even get a piece of gear, and most times when you do it is 860 "Combatants" gear. You can only get 880 above a certain rating (fairly low, ~1500 IIRC), or from the vendor after obliterating EIGHT pieces of 870 gear.

Now.. templates. Dear god, the misinformation. This one isn't directly solely at you, because Blizzard makes the process completely opaque and doesn't document (it)... but you're completely wrong in how it works.

Brief tutorial:

When you enter instanced PvP, your statistics are raised to a certain iLevel floor. This is BEFORE your template is applied. It was 800 at launch, then raised to 850 in 7.1, and 900 in 7.2. What this means is that your base stats (Int, Stam, et al) are factored as if every item in your slots is an iLevel 900 stat-stick.

THEN your Template is applied. This is why, when you see Blizzard's tuning numbers, Templates are expressed in percentages. (ex - "Intellect reduced to 73%") It is setting your base stats, determined when you zoned in at iLevel 900, to that percentage of the base. Stam tends to be over 100%, primary stats are usually severely cut (which in turn reduces AP/SP). The Template also applies a bunch of invisible auras that affect your spells and abilities (self-healing on a lot of abilities is cut by a blanket percentage, tanks take 25% more damage, period, etc)

AFTER your Template is applied, bonus stats from your Artifact Traits (the traits themselves, not merely having them - so a Trait that adds 3% stam, like a Blood Death Knight's "Meat Shield", for instance, applies now are applied, as well as any bonus stats from your Honor Talents.

THEN your bonus stam for traits is applied. The first 34 traits worth of bonus stam and the bonus Stamina (only) from the first skill on your new medallion are now granted gratis - but any traits anyone has above 34 still grant an additional .75% stam that a fresh 110 wont have. (At least up until the first point in Concordance of the Legionfall - Blizzard said there is now a "diminishing return" on stam gains from traits, but it is a solid .75% all the way up to the first point in Concordance, at the very least).

After all this, the bonus % gain from additional iLevels is added. This percentage bonus is calculated from iLevel 800. So, if you have iLevel 890, you have 9% bonus stats. And this is a blanket multiplier to all stats, including Stam.

And this isn't even factoring in the power differential granted by Artifact Traits themselves. A Blood DK, for instance, that has unlocked the new Medallion (Carrion Feast, Vampiric Aura, and Souldrinker) is heads and shoulders more powerful than one who hasn't. You cant even factor this in to some percentage-based evaluation - not that you need to, the raw mix is hard enough.

Too many people make an argument for the current system being better because they assume you already have a main and can push your AK high quick and kind of "catch up" sorta fast.

That's a huge mistake."

Most detailed explanation I've seen.

[Kagthul]

Most detailed explanation I've seen.

I mean.. thanks and all, but i originally posted that here (before the WoW forums), and it was quoted two posts above. =P

[Tic Tacs]

I mean.. thanks and all, but i originally posted that here (before the WoW forums), and it was quoted two posts above. =P

[Mafic]

Concordance works in BGs, what?!

Yes, and who knows how long this lasts till 7.3? GG if you want to work on alts.

[Deleted]

One thing is sure people here will never be happy. Years of crying about this template system to be implemented, finally its done, now everybody is crying against it lol. You are bunch if spoiled brats complaining more than my mother on law.

[Noxina]

- Farms gear in PvE, gets bored
- Queues for his first BG and gets destroyed
- Blames his PvE gear and BG scaling
:thinking:

It might, and this is just a thought, be your skill level that is complete and utter shit? And the fact that you most likely don't have a single PvP talent?

[nyc81991]

Skill > Gear. Work on your skill and rely less on gear.

[Deleted]

Skill > Gear. Work on your skill and rely less on gear.

pretty much this

[Caolela]

One thing is sure people here will never be happy. Years of crying about this template system to be implemented, finally its done, now everybody is crying against it lol. You are bunch if spoiled brats complaining more than my mother on law.

More childish posting from people who don't know their asses from their elbows.

I don't recall any great "crying" for a template or all-RNG system, and certainly not one like Legion's. What people wanted was reasonable balance of classes in PvP, not the constant roller coaster that Blizz always does to cause FotM rerolls. As we've seen, the complaints are about taking the RPG aspect out of an RPG (the concept of character progression) and turning it into a glorified MOBA.

[Kagthul]

More to the point, almost all of the experienced PvPers on this forum were predicting failure from the moment the new system was announced.

If i really went back and read through all the posts from announcement through alpha and beta, to live...

i think we were damn close to ~100% correct on our calls, too.

Removal of Gear causing massive casual participation loss? Called it.

Said casual participation loss causing massive ladder collapse? Called it.

Templates being ineffectual and still requiring individual tuning of abilities anyway? Called it.

Removal of a perfectly good PvP gearing system (lower iLevel in PvE/higher in PvP) that kept wPvP.... tolerable absolutely assfucking wPvP? Called it.

Removal of said gear system and replacing it with Honor talents leading to a much longer grind to even get into PvP, which is directly opposite what Blizzard said was the intention of the new system? Yep.

Artifact + iLevel scaling leading to just as large of an effective gear gap as ever before, that is now almost impossible to close, as opposed to the past? Yep, called it.

[Jotaux]

I don't know what you are talking about. I'm far from a good player in pvp but with 916 ilvl on my enhance shaman I'm dominating any BG I walk into.

[Mafic]

More to the point, almost all of the experienced PvPers on this forum were predicting failure from the moment the new system was announced.

If i really went back and read through all the posts from announcement through alpha and beta, to live...

i think we were damn close to ~100% correct on our calls, too.

Removal of Gear causing massive casual participation loss? Called it.

Said casual participation loss causing massive ladder collapse? Called it.

Templates being ineffectual and still requiring individual tuning of abilities anyway? Called it.

Removal of a perfectly good PvP gearing system (lower iLevel in PvE/higher in PvP) that kept wPvP.... tolerable absolutely assfucking wPvP? Called it.

Removal of said gear system and replacing it with Honor talents leading to a much longer grind to even get into PvP, which is directly opposite what Blizzard said was the intention of the new system? Yep.

Artifact + iLevel scaling leading to just as large of an effective gear gap as ever before, that is now almost impossible to close, as opposed to the past? Yep, called it.

The changes to Echoes in patch 7.2.5 will allow combatant gear to be broken down along with gladiator gear. But they need to do massive changes across the board for the new PVP season regarding reward structure and gearing.

[Deleted]

dude there is pvp gear. Its just easier to get higher ilvl through mythics than arena/arbg

Is that why most of the highest geared people are TF decked pvp players?

[Noxina]

Is that why most of the highest geared people are TF decked pvp players?

That is mostly because the higher rated PvP players are spamming arenas 24/7. Thus getting those lucky TF procs. If you are casual, going into M+ or raids will get you better gear faster.
But in the end the few percentages you obtain by having better gear won't win you matches, skill will.

[Caolela]

That is mostly because the higher rated PvP players are spamming arenas 24/7. Thus getting those lucky TF procs. If you are casual, going into M+ or raids will get you better gear faster.
But in the end the few percentages you obtain by having better gear won't win you matches, skill will.

Yes, that's why all the smartest "skilled" players take inferior gear and use inferior set-ups, because their leet "skills" will make up for it. That and their kickbots, rotation bots, fly and lag hacks, exploits...which themselves take a certain amount of "skill" to use...

People that use the term "skill" re WoW PvP are generally in constant fap mode feeding their egos or someone elses, in a fantasy world thinking they're the best thing since sliced bread and everyone else is a scrub. It's always the other guy that lost the match for them, but never them. That's called having delusions of grandeur and how many hundreds of times have we all seen it?

The fact is that given equal "skill" among players, a few percentage points better gear will win matches more than not, especially in Legion's "gear doesn't matter" alternate reality.