Quebec to reopen constitutional talks.

[minteK917]

http://www.theprovince.com/news/nati...894/story.html

An interesting turn of event for Canada 150th. Have to note that the last time this happened, another pro federalist prime minister of Quebec attempted this in 1987. The failure to get an agreement gave a second life to the slowing independence movement, spiraled Quebec into a second referendum for independence which was only lost by 1%. If the demands are met this time and all provinces sign, independence movement in Quebec will be dead forever. If it fails, independence movement will rise again.

[Independent voter]

What does Quebec want exactly? It sounds like they want recognition but I assume they already have that.

Canada should just make Quebec an autonomous region, let it make all of its decisions but still remain as a Canadian province. That would stop all of the secession talk.

Quebec would be like France in the EU, free travel, free trade, etc with the rest of Canada but Quebec could do a lot on its own too.

[minteK917]

What does Quebec want exactly? It sounds like they want recognition but I assume they already have that.

Canada should just make Quebec an autonomous region, let it make all of its decisions but still remain as a Canadian province. That would stop all of the secession talk.

Quebec would be like France in the EU, free travel, free trade, etc with the rest of Canada but Quebec could do a lot on its own too.

They want modification to the constitution in order to sign it. Currently Quebec is not part of the Canadian constitution, because it was created without its consent to the vote. Some of their demands even apply to the other provinces.

-Quebec was recognized as a "distinct society" in Section 2 of the Constitution Act, 1867. This would operate as an interpretative clause for the entire constitution;

-Prospective constitutional amendments were now subject to s. 41 of the Constitution Act, 1982, which meant they required the approval of every province and the Federal government;

-Provincial powers with respect to immigration were increased;

-Provinces were granted the right for reasonable financial compensation if that province chose to opt out of any future federal programs in areas of exclusive provincial jurisdiction; [this one was made eventually]

-The appointment of senators and Supreme Court justices, traditionally a prerogative of the Prime Minister, would be drawn from a selection of names provided by the provinces.

And you actually already got what Quebec independence means. The vote is about sovereignty association, which means quebec would not sign the constitution and be exempt of all federal power, but remain in a economical association with Canada.

And actually the recognition of a national identity was never actually achieve, infact Justin Trudeau father was the most notable politician against that idea. In 2017 the world is def different then in the 80s. The language about Quebec status as distinct society is more present, but on paper its still not recognized.

[Baine]

What does Quebec want exactly? It sounds like they want recognition but I assume they already have that.

Canada should just make Quebec an autonomous region, let it make all of its decisions but still remain as a Canadian province. That would stop all of the secession talk.

Quebec would be like France in the EU, free travel, free trade, etc with the rest of Canada but Quebec could do a lot on its own too.

As a Québecer, I want greater autonomy for Québec overall but especially in key fields like education and culture.

Former Québec prime minister Bourassa once set 5 conditions which became the ground for federalists claim in Québec:
-recognition of Quebec's distinct character (as primarily French-speaking)
-a veto for Quebec in Constitutional matters
-input by Quebec into the appointment of Supreme Court justices
-entrenchment of Quebec's role in immigration
-and a limit on the Federal spending power (i.e. 1867 Constitution gives power to federal government to intervene in the fields he wants even if it is in a provincial jurisdiction. It is because of this rule that the federal government intervened in heath and education who are provincial jurisdictions.

Those conditions were rejected twice (Meech Lake Accord and Charlottetown Accord) by the rest of Canada.

[Kellhound]

As a Québecer, I want greater autonomy for Québec overall but especially in key fields like education and culture.

Former Québec prime minister Bourassa once set 5 conditions which became the ground for federalists claim in Québec:
-recognition of Quebec's distinct character (as primarily French-speaking)
-a veto for Quebec in Constitutional matters
-input by Quebec into the appointment of Supreme Court justices
-entrenchment of Quebec's role in immigration
-and a limit on the Federal spending power (i.e. 1867 Constitution gives power to federal government to intervene in the fields he wants even if it is in a provincial jurisdiction. It is because of this rule that the federal government intervened in heath and education who are provincial jurisdictions.

Those conditions were rejected twice (Meech Lake Accord and Charlottetown Accord) by the rest of Canada.

Special snowflakes need to be special snowflakes.

[Baine]

Special snowflakes need to be special snowflakes.

You need to learn some history...

The claims are not for the sake of claiming stuff. Québécois want to have greater control over their destiny, which means the federal government should accept to lessen a bit the grip.

[minteK917]

Special snowflakes need to be special snowflakes.

Its more about the fact that its obvious to about anyone that Quebec is its own nation? Considering the Canadian constitution was signed without Quebec knowledge in the middle a night so that it could not negotiate any modification in its original form. Those demands will never be dropped. Like i said everyone that bargained to sign it are considered very pro federalist. Their only counter parts are people that will not sign it, but instead leave the federal government.

[cubby]

http://www.theprovince.com/news/nati...894/story.html

An interesting turn of event for Canada 150th. Have to note that the last time this happened, another pro federalist prime minister of Quebec attempted this in 1987. The failure to get an agreement gave a second life to the slowing independence movement, spiraled Quebec into a second referendum for independence which was only lost by 1%. If the demands are met this time and all provinces sign, independence movement in Quebec will be dead forever. If it fails, independence movement will rise again.

Ok, so, wow. My ignorance on this subject almost literally knew no bounds. However, I have read somethin' now so I'm both informed and *awoke* - look out!

Kidding aside, I wasn't aware of any of this and I appreciate the linked article. Fascinating reading.

The integration more than likely means combining the two countries into one? Is that right? Is that the goal or is that the hope of at least one side or is more of a recognition of the other?

I'm asking, because the 1986 "condidtions" include "It restates the famous "five conditions" for approval first set out by former Quebec premier Robert Bourassa in 1986: recognition of Quebec as a distinct society, limits on federal spending power, guaranteed Quebec representation on the Supreme Court, a constitutional veto right and increased control over immigration."

Those seem awfully difficult to implement, even just two or three. And I don't understand the first one, recognition as a distinct society.

Edit: I took too long to post, missed some of the responses - let me catch up, lol.

Edit 2: So is Quebec to Canada like Puerto Rico is to the United States? Roughly speaking I mean.

[Baine]

Ok, so, wow. My ignorance on this subject almost literally knew no bounds. However, I have read somethin' now so I'm both informed and *awoke* - look out!

Kidding aside, I wasn't aware of any of this and I appreciate the linked article. Fascinating reading.

The integration more than likely means combining the two countries into one? Is that right? Is that the goal or is that the hope of at least one side or is more of a recognition of the other?

I'm asking, because the 1986 "condidtions" include "It restates the famous "five conditions" for approval first set out by former Quebec premier Robert Bourassa in 1986: recognition of Quebec as a distinct society, limits on federal spending power, guaranteed Quebec representation on the Supreme Court, a constitutional veto right and increased control over immigration."

Those seem awfully difficult to implement, even just two or three. And I don't understand the first one, recognition as a distinct society.

Edit: I took too long to post, missed some of the responses - let me catch up, lol.

Edit 2: So is Quebec to Canada like Puerto Rico is to the United States? Roughly speaking I mean.

Not really. Québec is like the Thirteen colonies. It is the remnants of the French colonial empire in North America.

[Acidbaron]

As a Québecer, I want greater autonomy for Québec overall but especially in key fields like education and culture.

Former Québec prime minister Bourassa once set 5 conditions which became the ground for federalists claim in Québec:
-recognition of Quebec's distinct character (as primarily French-speaking)
-a veto for Quebec in Constitutional matters
-input by Quebec into the appointment of Supreme Court justices
-entrenchment of Quebec's role in immigration
-and a limit on the Federal spending power (i.e. 1867 Constitution gives power to federal government to intervene in the fields he wants even if it is in a provincial jurisdiction. It is because of this rule that the federal government intervened in heath and education who are provincial jurisdictions.

Those conditions were rejected twice (Meech Lake Accord and Charlottetown Accord) by the rest of Canada.

As someone from Belgium i can understand where you're coming from. However it's going to be a long ride to get more autonomy, matter of decades even.

[cubby]

Not really. Québec is like the Thirteen colonies. It is the remnants of the French colonial empire in North America.

Ah, ok. Well, no - still not clear. Would this be like after the Thirteen colonies became the United States and other territories weren't yet brought into country-ship? Loosely, I mean. Help!

Does Quebec want to become an official part of Canada?

[Baine]

Ah, ok. Well, no - still not clear. Would this be like after the Thirteen colonies became the United States and other territories weren't yet brought into country-ship? Loosely, I mean. Help!

Does Quebec want to become an official part of Canada?

Well, it is a bit more complicated than just like the Thirteen Colonies. Imagine the reaction of the 13 colonies if it was conquered by Spain and that 80% of the present day country would talk spanish.

- - - Updated - - -

As someone from Belgium i can understand where you're coming from. However it's going to be a long ride to get more autonomy, matter of decades even.

Oh yeah, I have no illusion about this. I voted in 1992 on the Constitution reform proposal, which failed. 25 years later, we are still there.

[cubby]

Well, it is a bit more complicated than just like the Thirteen Colonies. Imagine the reaction of the 13 colonies if it was conquered by Spain and that 80% of the present day country would talk spanish.

I figured it was pretty complicated, but I'm still trying to understand the kindergarten version. I appreciate you helping me out here.

Oh yeah, I have no illusion about this. I voted in 1992 on the Constitution reform proposal, which failed. 25 years later, we are still there.

Would more autonomy mean being officially added to Canada as part of the country, or just more recognition as an independent Province?

[DaGhostDS]

Oh yeah, I have no illusion about this. I voted in 1992 on the Constitution reform proposal, which failed. 25 years later, we are still there.

I don't expect it to end anywhere soon.

[Baine]

I figured it was pretty complicated, but I'm still trying to understand the kindergarten version. I appreciate you helping me out here.




Would more autonomy mean being officially added to Canada as part of the country, or just more recognition as an independent Province?

More autonomy /= independance.

We are in a dead-end at this moment because Québécois want reform but federal government does not and because a majority of Québécois does not want full independance, which is the other proposed solution to end...the dead-end.

[cubby]

More autonomy /= independance.

We are in a dead-end at this moment because Québécois want reform but federal government does not and because a majority of Québécois does not want full independance, which is the other proposed solution to end...the dead-end.

Sounds brutal - everyone caught in the middle with no one getting what they want.

[Xeones]

I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for a quebec independence movement due to negative experience in games like WoW with "proud quebeqoi" or whatever they say.

I just can't help but feel it's largely extremists who are just trying to push the french language.

[Baine]

I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for a quebec independence movement due to negative experience in games like WoW with "proud quebeqoi" or whatever they say.

I just can't help but feel it's largely extremists who are just trying to push the french language.

Sure, like any nationalist movement, there are hothead, but one of the goals of the nationalist movement (which goes beyond independance/federalism debate) is to protect french language. Protecting = make it sure french is the main language in the public space (work, governement, etc).

Remember, we are 8 millions or so speakers in North America vs hundreds of millions of english speakers. The pressure is great.

[Xeones]

Sure, like any nationalist movement, there are hothead, but one of the goals of the nationalist movement (which goes beyond independance/federalism debate) is to protect french language. Protecting = make it sure french is the main language in the public space (work, governement, etc).

Remember, we are 8 millions or so speakers in North America vs hundreds of millions of english speakers. The pressure is great.

And that is a problem. They want to force it on the people that live there.

[Kellhound]

You need to learn some history...

The claims are not for the sake of claiming stuff. Québécois want to have greater control over their destiny, which means the federal government should accept to lessen a bit the grip.

They are free to move to France.

- - - Updated - - -

Sure, like any nationalist movement, there are hothead, but one of the goals of the nationalist movement (which goes beyond independance/federalism debate) is to protect french language. Protecting = make it sure french is the main language in the public space (work, governement, etc).

Remember, we are 8 millions or so speakers in North America vs hundreds of millions of english speakers. The pressure is great.

You do realise that most of the former French holdings in North America assimilated into the English speaking countries that actually, you know, control the territory.