reintrodukt the value of ground mounts?

[Lucetia]

Seeming that Blizzard love using the Pathfinder achievments to unlock flying, how would peole feel about having to reunlock the use of ground mounts?

The reason I believe this could be a nice addition to the pathfinder way of gating things we are used to, and making them good again is:
1) Movement speed ability gets a higher value in the open world.
2) The world will/might feel bigger again
3) The feeling of going out on an adventure might come back in stronger force
4) You are "forced" to observe the world around you even more, instead of just fast fading background.
5) The patherfinder achievments can be spilt into more part, where each can be complete with the patch they are released in.
6) We might fall in love with our ground mounts again, like when we first got them.


I'm not saying this is a good idea but could help shining up the world. (and give blizzard a cheap way of making 'more'' content?)

Sure. While we are at it let's have a pathfinder for reusing your weapons (weapon skill must be X before doing damage and unlocked criteria), being able to use your professions at all (can't mine/herb/skin or start on expansion stuff until you unlock achieve), oh maybe running speed too, jumping. The possibilities are endless!

[Queen of Hamsters]

Sure. While we are at it let's have a pathfinder for reusing your weapons (weapon skill must be X before doing damage and unlocked criteria), being able to use your professions at all (can't mine/herb/skin or start on expansion stuff until you unlock achieve), oh maybe running speed too, jumping. The possibilities are endless!

Yeah... if someone needs to be FORCED into feeling immersed and having fun in this game, then they're most likely their own problem and they shouldn't try to blame it on optional features.

If they feel the need to dictate how OTHERS experience and feel about the game based in their own feels... well, then they can just sod right off. I have several people in my Alliance guild whom don't bother with flying in Legion, they didn't bother in WoD either. They are able to "stay competitive" and enjoy themselves just fine.

[Doomchicken]

I'm actually surprised that there haven't been far more complaint threads about the flight master's whistle. It does more to allow people to skip terrain than any previous feature... Doesn't seem to stop people from being out in the world, seeing the world and interacting with said world though. Same as flying so long as said world is worth going out into.

No one complains about the flights master whistle because it, unlike flying has drawbacks.
- whistle has a cast time
- whistle has a cool down
- whistle only takes you to the closest FP that you have unlocked

So while yes you can skip some terrain and mob packs unless you're going to sit there and wait for the whistle cooldown after every world quest assuming every world quest you want to do is easily accessible via flight path, you were more likely going to use the ground mount which runs the risk of the drawbacks ground mounts have, such as dazing and dismounting.

Where as there are NO drawbacks in using flying period.

[Queen of Hamsters]

No one complains about the flights master whistle because it, unlike flying has drawbacks.
- whistle has a cast time
- whistle has a cool down
- whistle only takes you to the closest FP that you have unlocked

So while yes you can skip some terrain and mob packs unless you're going to sit there and wait for the whistle cooldown after every world quest assuming every world quest you want to do is easily accessible via flight path, you were more likely going to use the ground mount which runs the risk of the drawbacks ground mounts have, such as dazing and dismounting.

Where as there are NO drawbacks in using flying period.

Actually, I don't think I've ever had to wait more than 1 minute for the whistle to come off CD. The CD is extremely low for the perk it gives.

And flying/travel doesn't need to be a drawback, so there's that. The whistle allowed players to skip content and still allows them to skip content even with flying available. People on a crusade to remove flying mounts from a game that's had them for longer than it didn't, should probably start with the whistle concept. And before that, start with the barding which allows ANYONE to avoid dazing in the Broken Isles, not just tanks.

I wonder what the reaction will be when they just remove the dazing effect...

[God Save The King]

One idea I have is to make flying mounts unable to go into any cave and tunnel, since there are some caves you can use your mount inside, in Legion, and allow ground mounts to always be usable in all caves and tunnels in the game.

That wouldn't really make them valuable, just required for caves though, something I was trying to avoid. Like, water walking mounts are only valuable because ground mounts are useless on water, so most people just ran around on water striders until flying was unlocked. I made a similar argument back then, water walking mounts should be 80% or 90%, so they don't eclipse ground mounts in usefulness, or make them like 50% extra speed on ground, and 100% over water.

Flying mounts negate the impact of either ground or water walking mounts. So that solution would basically do nothing, it wouldn't make them valuable, it'd make them the only option in certain situations.

After mulling it over for a bit, what I'd personally do is:

Water Walking Mounts: 80% speed on ground, ramping speed up to 400% or 500% on water
Ground Mounts: 100% on ground, ramping speed up to 400% or 500% on roads
Flying Mounts: 280% at all times (310% if you have that bought).

No idea if that's a good idea, but it gives each style of mount a place in the game. Flying can be good for direct mindless travel, or weaving in and out of objectives, ground could be for controlled fast travel across zones, and water would be for coastal exploration/movement between islands.

[Sinndra]

Where as there are NO drawbacks in using flying period.

There doesnt need to be any drawbacks to it.

the problem isnt, and has never been the option of flying.

the problem is with the content itself that people choose to avoid.

stop trying to force everyone to be all involved in areas of content you prefer and realize you are not the supreme dictator of the game, other people enjoy other ways of having fun.

if you want people to join you in the thing that you find fun, you need to find a way to entice others to come try it out. removing something they find useful or fun only makes them jaded and resentful towards those other aspects of the game that they do not like.

(the above statements are not directed at you specifically, but rather you in context.)

[Lucetia]

Yeah... if someone needs to be FORCED into feeling immersed and having fun in this game, then they're most likely their own problem and they shouldn't try to blame it on optional features.

If they feel the need to dictate how OTHERS experience and feel about the game based in their own feels... well, then they can just sod right off. I have several people in my Alliance guild whom don't bother with flying in Legion, they didn't bother in WoD either. They are able to "stay competitive" and enjoy themselves just fine.

Exactly. Immersion is basically what you make it. No matter what developers do, it will always be up to the player if they feel immersed, imo. For instance, in WoW some feel immersed by being able to fly and be grounded, others just feel immersed being grounded. So what one person enjoy shouldn't limit the other person provided both features are already in the game.

As you said, we all know people who didn't complete pathfinder and are completely satisfied. I can't speak for you or anyone else, but those I know who didn't do it also aren't saying "Everyone needs to not have access to it" or close to it.

This same concept could be said about a lot of games. For example, FFX some people felt immersed by limiting what they could do on the Sphere Grid (talent system) or limit what weapons they could use, etc. Each person has their own feeling of what feels immersed or not.

[Queen of Hamsters]

There doesnt need to be any drawbacks to it.

the problem isnt, and has never been the option of flying.

the problem is with the content itself that people choose to avoid.

stop trying to force everyone to be all involved in areas of content you prefer and realize you are not the supreme dictator of the game, other people enjoy other ways of having fun.

if you want people to join you in the thing that you find fun, you need to find a way to entice others to come try it out. removing something they find useful or fun only makes them jaded and resentful towards those other aspects of the game that they do not like.

(the above statements are not directed at you specifically, but rather you in context.)

Exactly.

Legion has more people out in the world than any previous iteration, maybe save for Classic when most people were leveling to 60, yet the old trope that "flying empties the world" lives on.

Reworking how mounts function (with the added bonus of just how silly mounts would look running at 500% speed) just to fulfill some player's need to dictate how everyone else enjoys the game seems like a whole lot of resources and time which could just be spent on keeping on developing the game as it has been throughout Legion... where the world is still alive and relevant @ max level and 9 months after it released.

If some people are struggling to feel immersed and have fun in the game due to 1 feature and knowing that others are making use of said feature, it's a personal issue and not something that'd be fixed by restricting everyone else.

The pathfinder concept is here to stay. Ground mounts will get to be the most valuable for 6+ months into every expansion, after that there's the freedom of flying OFFERED, not enforced. Apparently, this compromise stings in the eyes of the people that are inherently against flying coz "muh immursiuns!!"...

To that I say, let it sting.

[Doomchicken]

There doesnt need to be any drawbacks to it.

the problem isnt, and has never been the option of flying.

the problem is with the content itself that people choose to avoid.

stop trying to force everyone to be all involved in areas of content you prefer and realize you are not the supreme dictator of the game, other people enjoy other ways of having fun.

if you want people to join you in the thing that you find fun, you need to find a way to entice others to come try it out. removing something they find useful or fun only makes them jaded and resentful towards those other aspects of the game that they do not like.

(the above statements are not directed at you specifically, but rather you in context.)

Yeah, people do flying because it's fun and immersive, not because it's overpowered as shit. Get real. The funny thing is you put anything else in the game at the insane levels of overpowered that flying is and everyone it doesn't effect directly has a bitch fit, but when it benefits themselves, it's suddenly no problem. The hypocrisy is real. Balance is important on every level of game play, and anyone that thinks flying is balanced well is deluding themselves.

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Exactly.

Legion has more people out in the world than any previous iteration, maybe save for Classic when most people were leveling to 60, yet the old trope that "flying empties the world" lives on.

Reworking how mounts function (with the added bonus of just how silly mounts would look running at 500% speed) just to fulfill some player's need to dictate how everyone else enjoys the game seems like a whole lot of resources and time which could just be spent on keeping on developing the game as it has been throughout Legion... where the world is still alive and relevant @ max level and 9 months after it released.

If some people are struggling to feel immersed and have fun in the game due to 1 feature and knowing that others are making use of said feature, it's a personal issue and not something that'd be fixed by restricting everyone else.

The pathfinder concept is here to stay. Ground mounts will get to be the most valuable for 6+ months into every expansion, after that there's the freedom of flying OFFERED, not enforced. Apparently, this compromise stings in the eyes of the people that are inherently against flying coz "muh immursiuns!!"...

To that I say, let it sting.

How is flying not enforced when its infinitely better than anything else available? An illusion of choice, is not a choice at all. I have no problem with flying existing. I have a huge problem with flying existing in its current form when every other option is INFINITELY inferior.

[oplawlz]

I agree with the Op here. Anyone who has a hardon for removing flying should support this also. Obviously the game is better when it's more tedious in their eyes.

[Lightbull]

With flying mounts, if everyone is allowed to fly everywhere at any time, what's the point of ground mounts? What's the point of paths? Why don't we just get GM powers so we can fly everywhere because "convenience"?

Flying was implemented wrong from the start, there should have been a bigger drawback.

[Deleted]

Problem is that people feel that flying is needed now. It should never have been introduced in TBC and especially not in Cataclysm.

If you dont like flying dont do it but stay away from my druids wings!

[Queen of Hamsters]

Yeah, people do flying because it's fun and immersive, not because it's overpowered as shit.



How is flying not enforced when its infinitely better than anything else available? An illusion of choice, is not a choice at all. I have no problem with flying existing. I have a huge problem with flying existing in its current form when every other option is INFINITELY inferior.

Blah blah blah, keep singing the same tired old tune.

You got to be grounded by enforcement for months upon months. If you now lack the willpower to abstain from flying despite it apparently ruining shit for you, that's your own problem.

And you being unable to believe that people can fly for other reasons than the convenience =/= what's actually happening. Those other reasons = why the compromise came to be. Blizzard realized it wasn't all about convenience to everyone whom appreciate flying in this game.
People are quite capable of NOT flying as well when they don't value the things it offers. Forumgoers void of self-control and blaming every issue they have with this game on this 1 feature used to be cute, now they're just obnoxious. The Pathfinder model is here to stay, and there's literally no reason for them to change how mounts function when flying is delayed by half a year or more into each expansion.

[ComputerNerd]

Seems to be more of the petty "I don't like something, so take it away from everyone" arguments.
If you don't like mounted travel, then go ahead and do things without it.
That is your choice, but don't suggest that others should have to work to get even that simply because you like the idea of doing things without it.
Ground mounts have their value, until we get flying in an expansion.
We have had more than enough of blizzard's "ideal" experience, and if you don't like it no amount of repetition will change that.

[Queen of Hamsters]

With flying mounts, if everyone is allowed to fly everywhere at any time, what's the point of ground mounts? What's the point of paths? Why don't we just get GM powers so we can fly everywhere because "convenience"?

Flying was implemented wrong from the start, there should have been a bigger drawback.

But we're not allowed to fly everywhere at any time.

Pathfinder system says hello.

And ground mounts are still useful for the leveling experiences, in areas where we're NOT able to fly ever. Flight paths are useful as well for those times. Is that so hard to understand? Not that I'd mind if flightpaths were disabled once we got access to flying.

New buzzword used by people as a means to attack this long-lasting feature; Drawbacks.

Flying was implemented as it were, it's been functioning the way it has been since its introduction and we now have the Pathfinder system in place and people not willing to fly for whatever reason are able to opt out of getting it just fine.

The "drawback", if one can call it that, to accessing flight is to complete the requirements put in place. Some people can't be arsed and don't value flying enough, so they choose not to. They seem capable of enjoying themselves just fine, between flight paths, the whistle and speed of taxi flights.

- - - Updated - - -

Seems to be more of the petty "I don't like something, so take it away from everyone" arguments.
If you don't like mounted travel, then go ahead and do things without it.
That is your choice, but don't suggest that others should have to work to get even that simply because you like the idea of doing things without it.

This describes the mentality behind anti-flying sentiments so perfectly.

[Deleted]

We should force everyone to RP walk in towns.

[Queen of Hamsters]

We should force everyone to RP walk in towns.

I like to RP ride my mount between Stormwind and Ironforge, but mounts being able to run fast without "drawbacks" means I feel at a disadvantage upon seeing others ride past me at full speed.

I believe we should implement a system where mounts need to prepare for running for about 3 minutes, and then they've got stamina to run at full speed for exactly 4 minutes. If you stop, you need to walk the mount again for 3 minutes. If you ride the mount at full speed on hard surfaces such as cobble stone streets, it'll hurt its feet and need a recovery time of 3 months before you can use it again. This will mean that everyone's as immersed as myself, and nobody ever feels at a disadvantage in this MMORPG.

[Lucetia]

I like to RP ride my mount between Stormwind and Ironforge, but mounts being able to run fast without "drawbacks" means I feel at a disadvantage upon seeing others ride past me at full speed.

I believe we should implement a system where mounts need to prepare for running for about 3 minutes, and then they've got stamina to run at full speed for exactly 4 minutes. If you stop, you need to walk the mount again for 3 minutes. If you ride the mount at full speed on hard surfaces such as cobble stone streets, it'll hurt its feet and need a recovery time of 3 months before you can use it again. This will mean that everyone's as immersed as myself, and nobody ever feels at a disadvantage in this MMORPG.

No, that would just be too overpowered. We need our ground mounts to act like the brewfest rams do where you have to find a barrel to reset stamina and watch your stamina points for various speeds / your ram stopping.

[Doomchicken]

Blah blah blah, keep singing the same tired old tune.

You got to be grounded by enforcement for months upon months. If you now lack the willpower to abstain from flying despite it apparently ruining shit for you, that's your own problem.

Clearly you didn't read the original post.

And you being unable to believe that people can fly for other reasons than the convenience =/= what's actually happening.

If you actually believe more people like it because of immersion than convenience you are delusional, plain and simple.

People are quite capable of NOT flying as well when they don't value the things it offers.

And back in reality, more people choose to do things based on the path of least resistance over than because they enjoy it. Do some people enjoy flying? Sure and if you actually read my posts I've never argued otherwise. But you're mad to think any significant number of people in their right mind is going to gimp themselves by up to over TWO HUNDRED PERCENT movement speed simply because they like it more. Again, Illusion of choice is NOT a choice at all.

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No, that would just be too overpowered. We need our ground mounts to act like the brewfest rams do where you have to find a barrel to reset stamina and watch your stamina points for various speeds / your ram stopping.

And back in false equivalence town we have posts like this or the other ridiculous bullcrap you pro flyers are spewing.

Again, what is so WRONG with having actual choice in an mmo? Like a legitimate real choice in how we do things? These illusion of choices that we have don't make wow better, they make wow worse.

I don't want flying removed, I want travel to be balanced in such a way that you can keep at least a good portion of BOTH crowds of flying and ground mount users happy without the "need" of gating like pathfinder. The fact that some people are okay with things being so overwhelmingly overpowered in their favor without considering the implications is head shaking worrying to be honest.

[Lucetia]

And back in false equivalence town we have posts like this or the other ridiculous bullcrap you pro flyers are spewing.

Again, what is so WRONG with having actual choice in an mmo? Like a legitimate real choice in how we do things? These illusion of choices that we have don't make wow better, they make wow worse.

I don't want flying removed, I want travel to be balanced in such a way that you can keep at least a good portion of BOTH crowds of flying and ground mount users happy without the "need" of gating like pathfinder. The fact that some people are okay with things being so overwhelmingly overpowered in their favor without considering the implications is head shaking worrying to be honest.

Well if you want to quote me that's fine, but at least take what I said for what was said. If you read the person I quoted they were exaggerating on the issue. I was then continuing to poke fun at how everyone complains about everything and feels like they are "left behind" because of their choices.

Flying doesn't need any dangers, just like ground travel doesn't. In fact, you can avoid ground travel dangers just as much by sticking close to the roads. You can knowingly run straight through mobs and stuff just like flying.