Should WF/TF have a cap?

[Raelbo]

It's not about other people's gear. It's to provide incentive to push to higher difficulties. If you can get Mythic raid gear without killing one Mythic boss, why bother?

Firstly, getting mythic gear is IMO the stupidist possible motive to engage in Mythic progression. The raison d'etre for mythic raiding is to provide content for people who enjoy a challenge.

Secondly, even if you are among the small group of oddballs only doing mythic raiding to get the gear, you're still going to get much better gear from actually doing mythic raiding than from running LFR and praying for a 1 in a million chance at a 925 TF.....

[klaps_05]

WF/TF works only because it can forge higher than the cap of your current difficulty, which gives a raider the opportunity to CHOOSE whether or not he wants to stay in his current content or move to more difficult one.

if forging capped under the next item level spread, then this raider with luck he will only barely have entry level gear for that difficulty. blizzard likes to provide this opportunity and the raider can choose what to do.

[HumbleDuck]

Yes. Both should cap @ +0.

Atleast for HC and above.

[Raelbo]

None of this having to wear my normal gear because it procced 40 ilvls, whilst my mythic gear gets disenchanted because it didn't, bollucks.

Why is this actually a problem though? Personally I have 1 normal TF item among the rest of my gear which is all heroic. I am really not sure how having a piece that dropped from heroic makes the slightest difference.

[h4rr0d]

WF/TF works only because it can forge higher than the cap of your current difficulty, which gives a raider the opportunity to CHOOSE whether or not he wants to stay in his current content or move to more difficult one.

if forging capped under the next item level spread, then this raider with luck he will only barely have entry level gear for that difficulty. blizzard likes to provide this opportunity and the raider can choose what to do.

Wait, what? Before all this WT/TF crap, having full kit from a difficulty was more than enough gear for the next one. I don't think that ever changed (at least tuning wise). Only with WF/TF it is now expectation to actually begin content overgeared and only get upgrades if they proc. Really retarded.

[Niwes]

I don't think your scenario plays out in practice. Our guild did quite a bit of normal before progressing to Heroic. Towards the end we were getting maybe 2-3 gear upgrades across the entire raid for a complete normal clear, but as soon as we hit heroic, we all started getting numerous upgrades.

Also, any Heroic WF/TF gear is going to more than likely completely trounce normal WF/TF gear.

Sure, each member of the group might end up winning a handful of regular heroic items over the course of a few months that are useless because of a normal or LFR drop, but for the vast majority of gear slots, even the regular heroic gear is going to be superior.

IF that scenario wouldnt play out in practice often, i hadnt wrote that. ever got a 905 BiS trinket in normal mode and 3 months 890-900 versions of it ? while your other 2 top3 dps get some BiS 915 trinket in the first 2-3 HC weeks ? our raid leader had this scenario and you cant imagine how frustrating this is.

and this is 1 of around 50 sceanrios at just 3-4 guilds i know. so that seems percentally not that heavy out-of-practice.

the point is: complete progression (and also dmg races between chars too) is already totally watered down and that much RNG dependent, that a LOT of fun is lost, with AP/AW/LegendaryLuck/etc. alone. WF/TF makes this even a huge percents more bad.

if ppl no longer cant compare/compete each other at the slightest (RNG), cant work dedicated straight towards gear/power (RNG), are more rewarded by luck than hard work, have no motivation to get better gear / more power, where exactly is the fun in the game? sitting there for yourself alone, rolling the dices, while surounded by 19 other ppl doing the same? wow. great.

running 2-3 months every week with low motivations to just hit bosses without any real competition with your guildies bc of Luck, just for the sake of ... WHAT?... IS NOT funny. maybe the first 2-3 weeks when bosses are new. after that its a thousand times more worse than in any previous xpac.

as a reward system for some "i hop in now and then every 2 weeks, do 1 evening stuf, HEY! a fat epic upgrade!" casual players, its fine.

for the vast majority of longterm customers, playing on a weekly base, it is not.

[Grenor]

I raid max HC, so many won't take my words serious, but i really like, that even while I killed all HC bosses lots of times all have the opportunity to provide me upgrades. And no they don't need to tf to 925 on some slots 895 would be enough. In the past many bosse offered 2-3 trashitems(because of stat distribution) and 1-2 good items. You got those 2 = all loot was crap. And now? While certainly there are still trashitems , but tfed high enough even those may be interesting. Got the 2 Items? Still the possibility to get them with higher tf or socket etc.
It's nigh to impossible to "finish" a char, but to be honest i don't care. I set a point where the equip is good enough in my eyes and if I want move to an alt.
@previous Post: playing since classic. Still playing a lot. So I consider myself a longterm customer. For me the system isn't perfect, but better than without tf.

[Deleted]

Why is this actually a problem though? Personally I have 1 normal TF item among the rest of my gear which is all heroic. I am really not sure how having a piece that dropped from heroic makes the slightest difference.

Because we farm mythic for gear as well as other things and it's disheartening to see a mythic item drop that is WORSE than some shitty normal piece I got lucky on.

[Deleted]

right now, why struggle through mythic when I can just do heroic which is 100x easier.

Because the chance to get that gear is extremely small om lower difficulties. You got lucky, twice, 5 months ago. How many other 925s have you had since then? How many 920s?

Imaginary numbers incoming:

Chance for LFR 925 0.0001%
Chance for Normal 925 0.001%
Chance for Heroic 925 0.01%
Chance for Mythic 925 1%

Again, imaginary numbers. Would you rather struggle through Mythic, which is designed to cater to those that want a challenge, and have a relatively high chance of getting a 925 fairly often, or cruise through Heroic and get a few items during the entire lifespan of the expansion? And how bad is it if me, as a person only going through LFR, manages to get a single piece in that timeframe?

Your solution is not a solution, because the system is not broken. It's working as intended. And it's fine. Me getting a single 925 item today, about 10 months into the expansion, doesn't make it bad. If it did, you should have complained about it when you got your items that was clearly not supposed to be dropping for you.

[Raelbo]

IF that scenario wouldnt play out in practice often, i hadnt wrote that. ever got a 905 BiS trinket in normal mode and 3 months 890-900 versions of it ? while your other 2 top3 dps get some BiS 915 trinket in the first 2-3 HC weeks ? our raid leader had this scenario and you cant imagine how frustrating this is.

and this is 1 of around 50 sceanrios at just 3-4 guilds i know. so that seems percentally not that heavy out-of-practice.

the point is: complete progression (and also dmg races between chars too) is already totally watered down and that much RNG dependent, that a LOT of fun is lost, with AP/AW/LegendaryLuck/etc. alone. WF/TF makes this even a huge percents more bad.

if ppl no longer cant compare/compete each other at the slightest (RNG), cant work dedicated straight towards gear/power (RNG), are more rewarded by luck than hard work, have no motivation to get better gear / more power, where exactly is the fun in the game? sitting there for yourself alone, rolling the dices, while surounded by 19 other ppl doing the same? wow. great.

running 2-3 months every week with low motivations to just hit bosses without any real competition with your guildies bc of Luck, just for the sake of ... WHAT?... IS NOT funny. maybe the first 2-3 weeks when bosses are new. after that its a thousand times more worse than in any previous xpac.

as a reward system for some "i hop in now and then every 2 weeks, do 1 evening stuf, HEY! a fat epic upgrade!" casual players, its fine.

for the vast majority of longterm customers, playing on a weekly base, it is not.

Sorry mate, I guess english is not your first language, and I don't hold that against you. But honestly your writing is pretty close to unintelligible, so I cannot really tell whether what I think you're saying makes no sense because of how I am trying to interpret it, or if it is that way because what you're trying to say makes no sense in the first place.

What I seem to be getting from you is that failure to get TF/WF gear is a source of frustration for you, especially when other people seem to get lucky. IMO this is an issue of player attitude. This is not an issue that is the game's fault, it's a personal growth opportunity for you.

[Grenor]

Because we farm mythic for gear as well as other things and it's disheartening to see a mythic item drop that is WORSE than some shitty normal piece I got lucky on.

While this happens it's still much more probable to get upgrades from mythic. I have not a single item in my outfit from nhc/lfr, done them nearly every week. Best item i got was a set helm on 890. Replaced two weeks later by a 890 heroic helm with socket. So yes it may happen in rare circumstances that a normal item beats
some higher level one, but it's really not often. Trying to get upgrades as mythic raider from nhc/lfr can happen and so there is an incentive to help out, but it's so rare that farming them makes no sense at all.

[Deleted]

While this happens it's still much more probable to get upgrades from mythic. I have not a single item in my outfit from nhc/lfr, done them nearly every week. Best item i got was a set helm on 890. Replaced two weeks later by a 890 heroic helm with socket. So yes it may happen in rare circumstances that a normal item beats
some higher level one, but it's really not often. Trying to get upgrades as mythic raider from nhc/lfr can happen and so there is an incentive to help out, but it's so rare that farming them makes no sense at all.

Whilst you're not wrong, just because something is rare doesn't mean it's a good idea. Our Warlock got TF 900 ilvl legs from LFR like... 2 months ago? It took him 6 weeks of Guldan Mythic kills, 2 months of HC along with a good 10 rekills in that time for bonus rolling Whispers and 2 months of normal to replace them...

I think it's fun and nice for those that don't have the opportunity to raid mythic, but I think it should also have a cap so you have an actual reason to go for higher difficulties other than progression - not everyone cares about the kill as much as gear unfortunately.

[Raelbo]

Because we farm mythic for gear as well as other things and it's disheartening to see a mythic item drop that is WORSE than some shitty normal piece I got lucky on.

But why? You haven't answered my actual question, all you have done is rephrased your issue without providing any further insight into the reason it is a problem for you....

Why is a TF normal piece that rolls to 910 more "shitty" than a mythic 905 piece? Why are you upset that you got lucky with a normal piece in the first place? Most people would be very happy to have gotten such an awesome piece in the first place. Being grumpy that you don't automatically get the upgrade from heroic or mythic seems to me to be very strange indeed. First world problems....

[barackohmama]

There is already a cap. The WF/TF system is there for people who run LFR/Norm/HC to have a shot at better items. They will never cap out, since the chance of doing that is very small, but they will have a chance of getting a +20 TF item here and there. Mythic loot on other hand starts at much higher ilvl so they have a better chance of actually getting some pieces capped out.

[Nnyco]

titanforge gets to a small % so quickly and bein so lucky in multiple slots is almost close to zero without setting a foot in nh m, mythic raiders still have a massive lead in gear due the already high base ilvl so it is really no problem

He's not asking if the reason why they introduced TF and WF was okay, he's asking if it should have cap.

I agree with him. WF - 5 ilvl increase, TF - 10 ilvl increase.
Whenever I see someone with 925 ilvl LFR gear I'm shaking my head.

how dare other people have gear!!!

[klaps_05]

If mythic really needs a fix, they can just make it so first time you loot an item in mythic, it gives you the base version. every time you loot the same, it goes up by 5 ilevels. Keep the item level spread not to promote feeding only 1-2 people with high ilevel, done.

[barackohmama]

Because we farm mythic for gear as well as other things and it's disheartening to see a mythic item drop that is WORSE than some shitty normal piece I got lucky on.

In the end Mythic gear will always be better though because it has higher base ilvl. In mythic you will see more 925 gear than you do in HC and in HC you will see more 925 than you do in normal. If you are upset by lower tiers getting high TF rolls, then you're not seeing the big picture.

[Deleted]

But why? You haven't answered my actual question, all you have done is rephrased your issue without providing any further insight into the reason it is a problem for you....

Why is a TF normal piece that rolls to 910 more "shitty" than a mythic 905 piece? Why are you upset that you got lucky with a normal piece in the first place? Most people would be very happy to have gotten such an awesome piece in the first place. Being grumpy that you don't automatically get the upgrade from heroic or mythic seems to me to be very strange indeed. First world problems....

I suppose the core of it is I don't feel like I deserve 910 loot for killing a mythic boss, my main aim in progression is to kill bosses and loot is just a by product but in Mythic farm I'm there for AP etc but also for loot. I dislike the idea of gearing my character through luck as opposed to effort.

I'm not flat out calling for it to be abolished like some because I totally get the "holy shit" feeling of someone who clears normal getting a 900 piece. I'm not salty about people being happy, I just purely dislike the idea of putting in effort to gear my character for next tier by clearing mythic and being disappointed because my mythic piece didn't Titanforge but that random piece I got from boosting a friend in normal did...

[Celestraza]

- have something to earn in lower difficulty level? good.
- see most of the time no upgrades in your daily/weekly difficulty level? not so good...

THIS system as it is now, is DEFINETELLY not the answer. it do more harm than it is worth.

The reward for doing lower difficulty content is AP, which is more than enough as an incentive. In addition to legendary drops.
The WF/TF system is horrible. It should at least be combined with reforging.

There is nothing more frustrating on only getting useless TF gear (bad stats) in your difficulty when others get BiS TF gear.

[Allenseiei]

Should WF and TF have a cap? For example WF would be 5 ilvl and TF would be 10ilvl and make it more rare depending on what difficulty you are doing. LFR would have the lowest chance while mythic would have a higher chance.

NH Raid
Base/WF/TF
LFR 875/880/885
N 885/890/900
H 900/905/915
M 915/920/925

WF/TF should be similar to the old. Just one upgrade and 5-6 ilvl.