Should WF/TF have a cap?

[Raelbo]

Whilst you're not wrong, just because something is rare doesn't mean it's a good idea. Our Warlock got TF 900 ilvl legs from LFR like... 2 months ago? It took him 6 weeks of Guldan Mythic kills, 2 months of HC along with a good 10 rekills in that time for bonus rolling Whispers and 2 months of normal to replace them...

Dude, you're not getting it. For a normal human being this is a wonderful position to be in. You need to explain why this should cause any person to have anguish.

I think it's fun and nice for those that don't have the opportunity to raid mythic, but I think it should also have a cap so you have an actual reason to go for higher difficulties other than progression - not everyone cares about the kill as much as gear unfortunately.

Again, this sounds like an incredibly strange mindset. The point of gear is that it's a means to an end, ie a way to get those kills. Yes, getting gear upgrades is always a nice feeling, which is precisely why the WF/TF is such a great system, because you can always potentially keep getting surprise upgrades.

It sounds to me like your primary problem is your own attitude - a bit like a child who can't appreciate his Christmas presents because he is terrified that someone else is getting something nicer. It's a personal shortcoming that you should work to overcome, rather than expecting everyone else to have to constrain themselves.

[Deleted]

In the end Mythic gear will always be better though because it has higher base ilvl. In mythic you will see more 925 gear than you do in HC and in HC you will see more 925 than you do in normal. If you are upset by lower tiers getting high TF rolls, then you're not seeing the big picture.

Tell that to the Ret that coined a 925 Draught with a socket from LFR Guldan, what you're saying is right but you're also essentially saying "yeah its okay you'll just get lucky again"... But what if I Titanforge to the ilvl cap?

[Ozyorkbourne]

Yes, but not because I care what gear other people have. It muddles character progression, particularly in mythic raiding.

Gear is, of course, just a tool to kill a boss.

It is however, nice to become more powerful after you kill the final boss and then find the rekilling of content get easier. Unfortunately, Gul'dan drops the best trinkets for numerous classes and some high relics, but relics/trinkets from earlier bosses or heroic can titanforge and by the time GD mythic died, I think we'd killed GD hc at least 10 times. Between the kills, bonus rolls (sometimes 3+ on GD a week because rekills in pugs for roll) most people went in to GD mythic in my guild with mythic GD base trinkets and relics. Of course this means that unless the mythic loot, of which there is a large loot table, war-titanforges, it's mostly minor upgrades.

As said, that is the primary objective of the game. It just erodes the sense of character/content progression which used to be very linear. It's why unless you look at speed kills, most bosses have taken quite a while for the average kill speed to improve, because it's taken numerous clears and boss kills to really improve your character and dps, compared to BRF and HFC mythic farming.

[Nathanyel]

If you can get Mythic raid gear without killing one Mythic boss, why bother?

Unless you're clearing HC to get gear that only needs some procs to be of Mythic/max iLvl, that would be like not trying to get a better job/promotion because you might win the lottery.

[Raelbo]

I suppose the core of it is I don't feel like I deserve 910 loot for killing a mythic boss, my main aim in progression is to kill bosses and loot is just a by product but in Mythic farm I'm there for AP etc but also for loot. I dislike the idea of gearing my character through luck as opposed to effort.

Fair enough. The gear you have you should feel to you like you've earned it. Maybe if you looked at your character as whole, instead of focussing on that one piece that you got "lucky" with, you'd recognise that your gear as a whole is the result of effort. In the end, luck tends to balance out over a long period of time.

The simple fact is that you're going very high correlation between those who put in the most effort and those who got the most lucky, because in reality it's not actually about luck.

[Deleted]

Dude, you're not getting it. For a normal human being this is a wonderful position to be in. You need to explain why this should cause any person to have anguish.



Again, this sounds like an incredibly strange mindset. The point of gear is that it's a means to an end, ie a way to get those kills. Yes, getting gear upgrades is always a nice feeling, which is precisely why the WF/TF is such a great system, because you can always potentially keep getting surprise upgrades.

It sounds to me like your primary problem is your own attitude - a bit like a child who can't appreciate his Christmas presents because he is terrified that someone else is getting something nicer. It's a personal shortcoming that you should work to overcome, rather than expecting everyone else to have to constrain themselves.

Here I was thinking we were actually having a nice discussion, but instead I'm a child who's jealous of other people

I don't like replacing gear from harder content with gear from easier content, you may be happy with that and other people may be happy with that and I have no problems with what you or anyone else enjoys - but I personally see it as backwards character progression.

[Grenor]

If the LFR player coins a 925 Draught, it doesn't matter at all. Yes if you are a Mythic raider you may be frustated that you can't get an upgrade for this single item from a mythic boss, but in many cases he can drop some other upgrades.
Perhaps it would be a problem if one raid has a lot of people with luck at tf items from LFR, but haven't seen a guild where this rare cases really stacked up.
M+ and Nethershard items aren't as restricted as lfr/nhc/hc/mythic items. You can run/farm them till your eyes bleed. And I think there may be a problem.

[Deleted]

But why? You haven't answered my actual question, all you have done is rephrased your issue without providing any further insight into the reason it is a problem for you....

Why is a TF normal piece that rolls to 910 more "shitty" than a mythic 905 piece? Why are you upset that you got lucky with a normal piece in the first place? Most people would be very happy to have gotten such an awesome piece in the first place. Being grumpy that you don't automatically get the upgrade from heroic or mythic seems to me to be very strange indeed. First world problems....

Not sure if you actually have done mythic raids (current ones) at all if you have to ask this question. You spend quite a while, sometimes north of 150 tries when progressing a mythic boss. When the boss goes down, it is a great feeling to have conquered this challenge, but also the loot afterwards is part of that reward.

Compare this to the faceroll that most heroic bosses are, and I can absolutely understand the feeling of frustration when you stand around in Dalaran and see several people with better gear than you who have never even touched mythic raiding (or challengingly high m+, not this 10+ joke we have at the moment, but 18 upwards where actual strategy and "skill" are really required)

I don't fully dislike the WF/TF system, but I do think that the chances are too high in general and the "Random Numbers Generator" within the engine does and has always sucked really badly, so that you see some players consistently lucking out while others rarely if ever do.

[Niwes]

Sorry mate, I guess english is not your first language, and I don't hold that against you. But honestly your writing is pretty close to unintelligible, so I cannot really tell whether what I think you're saying makes no sense because of how I am trying to interpret it, or if it is that way because what you're trying to say makes no sense in the first place.

What I seem to be getting from you is that failure to get TF/WF gear is a source of frustration for you, especially when other people seem to get lucky. IMO this is an issue of player attitude. This is not an issue that is the game's fault, it's a personal growth opportunity for you.

yep it seems you dont get what i am saying. and yes, i am not a natural english speaker. thought ppl should be able to understand what i try to say. it seems they dont (at least you dont). but thats ok

[Fourze]

In a ideal world gear cannot titanforge above the current Mythic baseline ilvl.
So for NH that would mean no gear not from mythic nh could not roll to be above i900.

Or Mythic raid gear simply drops at the maximum ilvl for the tier because it doesn't feel right that getting lucky in a heroic raid can result in throwing away Mythic raid gear.

[slickwilly]

People need to get over themselves. Someday you will get your little snowflake title so everyone knows your a mythic raider and so amazing.

[Deleted]

In my opinion WF/TF should cap at the ilvl of the next higher tier. That has some upsides and downsides. The downside is people only raiding normal/heroic cant get the highest ilvl gear, world quest gear rewards become irrelevant at some point because it cannot forge ilvl cap (no more "lets do it maybe I highroll my BiS relic"; that can be an upside too if you dont like doing WQs). The upside is you have a real progression through the difficulties, it makes balancing much easier and actually makes mythic raiding much more accessible than it currently is (no more outgearing before progression), it makes split raiding much less efficient. For me it feels wrong that I can highroll on heroic mode 2 months before I start progressing on a boss and already know theres nothing I can loot. Killing a boss is only one part of raiding, the second one is getting gear. Unfortunately you get half your gear from doing raids a tier below your progression tier.

[Pijips]

Unless you're clearing HC to get gear that only needs some procs to be of Mythic/max iLvl, that would be like not trying to get a better job/promotion because you might win the lottery.

You say 'unless' as if everyone isn't clearing HC already.

Firstly, getting mythic gear is IMO the stupidist possible motive to engage in Mythic progression. The raison d'etre for mythic raiding is to provide content for people who enjoy a challenge.

Secondly, even if you are among the small group of oddballs only doing mythic raiding to get the gear, you're still going to get much better gear from actually doing mythic raiding than from running LFR and praying for a 1 in a million chance at a 925 TF.....

I think you are wrong on the first point, loot is definitely motivation for a lot of people, because it translates to better DPS and therefore being more 'big dick'. There is a reason people froth at the mouth when they see a 925 Draught. In regards to your second point, again TF is only an issue because of the gap between heroic and mythic being even more narrowed in terms of rewards but with effort requirement remaining the same. At least that's how I see it. It's not about the 1 in a million chance of getting a max iLvl item from a WQ or whatever.

[Deleted]

I would like for Mythic raiders to have exclusive rewards, but wf/tf aint really a problem with the chances like they are now.

If you consistently (and realistically) want really high ilvl, mythic is the way to go. The real problem is split raiding.

[Deleted]

You say 'unless' as if everyone isn't clearing HC already.

Not everyone is. Some people stick to lesser difficulties because they want to.

[uopayroll]

I agree with him. WF - 5 ilvl increase, TF - 10 ilvl increase.
Whenever I see someone with 925 ilvl LFR gear I'm shaking my head.

Then stop looking. You have to take steps to examine a character and then look through their gear. Why put so much effort in something that bothers you?

[Redblade]

Cap isn't needed really but the higher the difficulty the better the odds for a WF/TF should be a thing imo. The way it is now the lower the difficulty the bigger the potential gain is which is kinda backwards.

[Toogoodman]

I don't really care what gear other people have, so no.

Its not really caring about the gear other people have, its more so being worried that you're forced to run LFR/Normal/Heroic/Mythic of every tier that's been released if you don't want to miss out on upgrades. I run almost every difficulty of ever raid every week along with a ton a M+ and its pretty shitty at this point lol, but FOMO on gear that'll help with faster ToS progression is pretty real.

[david0925]

since all the non mythic raiders love the "dont let other people get gear bother you", how about we just automatically have mythic drop the highest ilvl gear for the patch?

you enjoy your tfwf, we will play without it.

[Grenor]

Its not really caring about the gear other people have, its more so being worried that you're forced to run LFR/Normal/Heroic/Mythic of every tier that's been released if you don't want to miss out on upgrades. I run almost every difficulty of ever raid every week along with a ton a M+ and its pretty shitty at this point lol, but FOMO on gear that'll help with faster ToS progression is pretty real.

To get rich you are forced to do every free lottery there is?
It's about chances. You aren't forced to do lfr/normal. Chances for gear upgrades there are really really small. You just have to draw a line where the chances are to small for you. If you can't do that, it's not a problem with the game.
Although M+/Nethershards offer an unlimited amount of chance while being on a relativly high baselevel, so the chance of a upgrade are a bit higher. I don't really like that.