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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Liandryl View Post
    Lol, you give elitism a new level...
    Sry to tell you that completing a 15-20 in time does not require much skill for most affixes.
    If someone killed Gul'dan pre-nerf and it was not by buying the kill, you would not likely be carrying him in your mythic+ but the opposite or you would perform as well if you are good.
    Completing 20+ keys in time does require some skills but so does killing the last 2 bosses of NH M pre-nerf so saying you would carry someone that did that is simply funny to read. You think so high of yourself it's ridiculous xD
    You might have encountered an exception, but there are exceptions in every content completion if it is not done solo.
    You are right that there is nothing wrong if you wanna push a key like 20+ to look for more than just raid background, but I never talked about that, I even said I do around 15 because I do not care about pushing. My situation was a simple 15 clear which I have been doing since EN.
    And you've given entirely different level to ignorance. On several places in my response I stated that I know my score is not that high, and I know the numbers are not a completely valid representation of players skill.

    So once again I will reiterate the most important points

    1) Yes the community is ridiculous with their requirements more often than not (but since you are complaining I suppose you would have no problem taking a random 880 guy into NH heroic)
    2) People need to pick their group based on something for which M+ score is quite a good metric. Requesting 2K+ rating into +15 is a bit ridiculous, yes -- however something 1800 rating currently means you've done all the dungeon for +15... cathedral and kz are harder.. so say 1700 is a reasonable requirement (comparable to requiring curve in pug for hc Gul'Dan).
    3) Your raid accomplishments may give you a better "visibility" but by no means do entitle you to be picked. If I am presented with 2K m+ score guy and a guy with 700 m+ score who killed 10/10M I will pick the first one. Not because he is a better player, I will do it because evidence indicates he is more familiar with the content and thus likely to perform better. In the same manner if your guild looks for a new member of your raid group they will likely be more interested with guy who got a decent raiding experience and kills compared to guy who runs higher mythic keys.

    Another fun fact: In a spirit of "everyone here on mm-champion is 10/10M a has top 0.1% of pvp rating" it seems everyone here is running 20+ key on time since that is where the "hard part begins". They keys are not that easy starting from +17 I would say -- especially if you don't have a stable totally coordinated group. Personally I would consider keys up to +19 fairly easy (again depends on the dungeon and affixes), however that doesn't mean that +17 tyranical upper karazhan is easy to beat. If I am the elitist here I wander how all the "You are shit unless you are the best" guys should be called.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarevokcz View Post
    eh, mythic+ DO require slightly different approach than raids, youre much more dependant on improvisation and your other tools other than dps or hps, like several of our healers are good on raids, but i wouldnt run with them m+, while the other healers are good in both

    that said, I dont usually run much above 15 anyway unless its like maw or arcway, as its a waste of time much better spent on working other guildies 12+ key or smth and I actively avoid the dungeons i dont like, cathedral, black rook, even easy wardens, I dont think i have run a single wardens since patch, my score tanks, even when i have done other 18s or 19s in time, like tyrannical upper kara etc, but because people look at overall score... eh, honestly, they should look at the dungeon they want to run, who cares if I dont run cathedral or wardens if i want to join azshara or CoS?
    Thank you! And yes, you are totally correct -- ideally I should check the specific dungeon. This is yet again a matter of efficiency -- it's easier to check a number than to go and look at specific dungeons. It makes perfect sense, however I think that expecting an average Joe to do this amount of "research" about people is unreasonable -- especially if he does have unreasonable requirements for lower level keys, he likely wants to get carried.

  2. #42
    Mythic+ Score: 210

    gg, guess I shouldn´t have transed Server lol

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Liandryl View Post
    Lol I just looked up at my score which is 1680 with most dungeons 15+ with 1 at 12 and 1 with none (Cathedral) and I remember people asking for 2k score to join their m+...
    I am 913 equipped with a 10/10M NH guild and I would not be invited to one of those groups, people are getting a little ridiculous relying on those numbers...
    which is only showing how cancerous for wow shit like wowprogres , logs and number meters are - tbh blizzard act accordingly and should start baning everybody whouses it as req in grup finder - its promoting nothign but toxicity in wow community

    but blizzard dont cares about its community simple as that

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    which is only showing how cancerous for wow shit like wowprogres , logs and number meters are - tbh blizzard act accordingly and should start baning everybody whouses it as req in grup finder - its promoting nothign but toxicity in wow community

    but blizzard dont cares about its community simple as that
    What is toxic on wanting to be in a group with people at around my skill/progress level? Can this be misused? Sure it can, so can be chat -- should we remove it? Guilds I think do also have some potential for being misused -- you can sell your farm runs, which from certain point of view is also toxic, guess we should remove the guilds....

    I'm not talking about a 865ilvl guy requesting 910 ilvl and 2k mythic+ score to get his +11 key boosted. I'm talking about that 910ilvl 2k score guy wanting to blitz through his +15/+16/whatever to push higher (potentially with the same group if things work out well).

    People need to start distinguishing between these two scenarios -- and the first, which is admittedly a real issue, should no be fixed on the expense of the later. Hell it doesn't even need fixing -- either the community is fine with it, or the majority of community stops carrying people. You join a group and see the group leader is not up to his own requirement? Call the dude out and leave.
    Last edited by pseudoJ; 2017-06-02 at 12:52 PM.

  5. #45
    Deleted
    Why wowprogress is not updating m+?
    Few days ago done 13 CoS (2 chest), 15 HoV (2 chest) and 17 DT (not in time). And in my profile thers is no CoS (ever, 0, nothing), HoV says my max is 9, and only DT is 17 as it should be...
    Also it says - Amount of Mythic 15+ Dungeons completed in time: 3 and only one dungeon shows as 15+ at the record, kinda Contradicts with self. Should I start to log every m+ also to count em?

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by pseudoJ View Post
    What is toxic on wanting to be in a group with people at around my skill/progress level? Can this be misused? Sure it can, so can be chat -- should we remove it? Guilds I think do also have some potential for being misused -- you can sell your farm runs, which from certain point of view is also toxic, guess we should remove the guilds....

    I'm not talking about a 865ilvl guy requesting 910 ilvl and 2k mythic+ score to get his +11 key boosted. I'm talking about that 910ilvl 2k score guy wanting to blitz through his +15/+16/whatever to push higher (potentially with the same group if things work out well).

    People need to start distinguishing between these two scenarios -- and the first, which is admittedly a real issue, should no be fixed on the expense of the later. Hell it doesn't even need fixing -- either the community is fine with it, or the majority of community stops carrying people. You join a group and see the group leader is not up to his own requirement? Call the dude out and leave.
    That's quite the list of strawmen you built there.

    There's nothing wrong with wanting to be with players of your skill lvl. The problem is any system can be gamed, often to the detriment of other people. You can have a 99th percentile log and completely ignore every mechanic in a fight. You can have a 1500+ M+ score and KSM and be clueless on tactics because you did them all in Sanguine/Overflowing/Tyrannical week. You can have a 910+ ilvl by simply stacking your highest gear and ignoring stats. Etc.
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  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimson View Post
    That's quite the list of strawmen you built there.

    There's nothing wrong with wanting to be with players of your skill lvl. The problem is any system can be gamed, often to the detriment of other people. You can have a 99th percentile log and completely ignore every mechanic in a fight. You can have a 1500+ M+ score and KSM and be clueless on tactics because you did them all in Sanguine/Overflowing/Tyrannical week. You can have a 910+ ilvl by simply stacking your highest gear and ignoring stats. Etc.
    Would you care to elaborate what I said was a strawman? I addressed only the relevant things. Not to mention that:

    1) Overflowing no longer exists (and the m+ score had a reset with the dungeon/affix changes)
    2) Sanguine can be quite unpleasant in something like MoS since the corridors are quite narrow and there is
    3) I would argue that tyranical is the more difficult affix out of those two the higher you go -- you can CC mobs/kill just some of them before the pack kills you, hell you can invis-skip certain packs. Boss a a will which you either kill or you don't finish the dungeon at all. Tyranical bosses can be ridiculous to the point where certain group comps have no chance of killing them (even worse when affixes work against that particular comp).

    Also I am using strawmen arguments while you crafting such an unlikely scenario of somebody who got all their M+ rating during one week (1500 means all dungeons at around +13 which) is completely valid argument -- and I am ignoring the fact that such combination of affixes is no longer possible.

    Also you argument with 910 gear is highly relevant .... Yet again the assumption that I wasn't talking about randomly scrapped gear just for the sake of ilvl is not that unreasonable.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    so getting down 3 mythic bosses in Emerald nightmare'
    is worth more then killing 3 nighthold mythic bosses?
    yeah sure thing bro
    Yupp, the last 3 bosses in EN is also harder than any first 4 in NH.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by pseudoJ View Post
    Would you care to elaborate what I said was a strawman? I addressed only the relevant things. Not to mention that:

    1) Overflowing no longer exists (and the m+ score had a reset with the dungeon/affix changes)
    2) Sanguine can be quite unpleasant in something like MoS since the corridors are quite narrow and there is
    3) I would argue that tyranical is the more difficult affix out of those two the higher you go -- you can CC mobs/kill just some of them before the pack kills you, hell you can invis-skip certain packs. Boss a a will which you either kill or you don't finish the dungeon at all. Tyranical bosses can be ridiculous to the point where certain group comps have no chance of killing them (even worse when affixes work against that particular comp).

    Also I am using strawmen arguments while you crafting such an unlikely scenario of somebody who got all their M+ rating during one week (1500 means all dungeons at around +13 which) is completely valid argument -- and I am ignoring the fact that such combination of affixes is no longer possible.

    Also you argument with 910 gear is highly relevant .... Yet again the assumption that I wasn't talking about randomly scrapped gear just for the sake of ilvl is not that unreasonable.
    The strawmen came from you taking one thing (skill lvl) and trying to talk about guilds, chat, etc.

    You're right about the score reset, I forgot about that. You could still have gotten KSM that week. I remember a ton of posts here advising everyone to do just that, since it was right before the patch. Sanguine, though.... even in MoS, it's not terribly hard. Slightly harder than most places, but nothing to give a second thought to.

    I also don't understand how someone doing a bunch of >+10s on an "easy" week is unlikely. On any given week I can find groups for 10-14 keys any time of day.
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  10. #50
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BergErr View Post
    Yupp, the last 3 bosses in EN is also harder than any first 4 in NH.
    LOL WHAT
    mythic xavius
    harder then mythic spellblade
    PFFFT that is a quick way to show you know fucking nothing about raiding
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    My ideas are objectively good

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimson View Post
    The strawmen came from you taking one thing (skill lvl) and trying to talk about guilds, chat, etc.

    You're right about the score reset, I forgot about that. You could still have gotten KSM that week. I remember a ton of posts here advising everyone to do just that, since it was right before the patch. Sanguine, though.... even in MoS, it's not terribly hard. Slightly harder than most places, but nothing to give a second thought to.

    I also don't understand how someone doing a bunch of >+10s on an "easy" week is unlikely. On any given week I can find groups for 10-14 keys any time of day.
    It wasn't a strawman... it was an attempt to show how ridiculous argument it is to advocate something to be banned/removed just because it can be abused (from a social point of view).

    As for KSM -- exactly what you listed is the reason why KSM has a very little value in current M+ scene. Especially because you can get the achieve now when +15 in time is fairy possible even for a weaker group due to general ilvl of the playerbase (and tons of boosting groups out there).

    Yes somebody doing bunch of+10s is not that unlikely... the thing is if you want to get say a 1.8K+ score a bunch of easy keys is not enough.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by thebdc View Post
    Calling other people elitists and then saying getting a +20 in time is easy. How rich.
    Depending on the affixes it is man. There is a reason why I so easily did my first 15 in time like 2 months in the expansion, it was not because I was a god or whatever at the game, it is because it was sanguine overflowing which did not affect the run much which made it quite easy to go through. Some affixes will make it hard to do a 20 in time for top tier players, but easiest affixes 15-20 can be done easily if you are a good player still. People that find getting heroic raiding hard will not likely find it easy on any affixes.
    I do indeed have some elitism in me, but saying mythic raider will get carried by non mythic raider for 15ish keys just because they like pushing keys more is the part I could not accept one bit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarevokcz View Post
    eh, mythic+ DO require slightly different approach than raids, youre much more dependant on improvisation and your other tools other than dps or hps, like several of our healers are good on raids, but i wouldnt run with them m+, while the other healers are good in both
    For sure Dungeons and Raid are different, but the reason why I got upset at his comment was that to him having cleared the hardest difficulty raid was worthless when it came down to inviting people. If someone has never done more than +10 keys and has completed 10/10M NH and you want to do a 16-17, I would agree that you might not want to play with that guy as he might underestimate the dungeon and fuck up. But if you want to do a +15 and the 10/10M NH has like 1500 m+ score because he avoids certain dungeons he does not like and has done 15-17 in all others and is not taken because the group looks for 2k + score which not that many people have, that is where I am like wtf.... You can't judge someone by 1 criteria, when I do group and need to pug, I check the overall: Gear, m+ history, raid history.
    Obviously having done +20 in all difficulty but having done no mythic raid will probably make him more attractive than the opposite which is just logic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pseudoJ View Post
    And you've given entirely different level to ignorance. On several places in my response I stated that I know my score is not that high, and I know the numbers are not a completely valid representation of players skill.

    So once again I will reiterate the most important points

    1) Yes the community is ridiculous with their requirements more often than not (but since you are complaining I suppose you would have no problem taking a random 880 guy into NH heroic)
    2) People need to pick their group based on something for which M+ score is quite a good metric. Requesting 2K+ rating into +15 is a bit ridiculous, yes -- however something 1800 rating currently means you've done all the dungeon for +15... cathedral and kz are harder.. so say 1700 is a reasonable requirement (comparable to requiring curve in pug for hc Gul'Dan).
    3) Your raid accomplishments may give you a better "visibility" but by no means do entitle you to be picked. If I am presented with 2K m+ score guy and a guy with 700 m+ score who killed 10/10M I will pick the first one. Not because he is a better player, I will do it because evidence indicates he is more familiar with the content and thus likely to perform better. In the same manner if your guild looks for a new member of your raid group they will likely be more interested with guy who got a decent raiding experience and kills compared to guy who runs higher mythic keys.

    Another fun fact: In a spirit of "everyone here on mm-champion is 10/10M a has top 0.1% of pvp rating" it seems everyone here is running 20+ key on time since that is where the "hard part begins". They keys are not that easy starting from +17 I would say -- especially if you don't have a stable totally coordinated group. Personally I would consider keys up to +19 fairly easy (again depends on the dungeon and affixes), however that doesn't mean that +17 tyranical upper karazhan is easy to beat. If I am the elitist here I wander how all the "You are shit unless you are the best" guys should be called.

    - - - Updated - - -
    1) I agree with the first statement, but I do not pug raid much since I do it with my guild mostly so I do not really have that issue or picking people. If I was to start a group, the ilvl I would look for would depend on the core I brought with me to begin with. If we have like 7-8 strong players that include the tanks and 1-2 heal and we are not in a rush to just sprint the raid, I might take some lower ilvl, but the it is more likely I would go 895-900ilvl +, that is true. I do not create group much so I cannot really share my experience on that.

    2) You basically agree with me for most with that statement, I argued about the 2k for a 15 being dumb. I don't think relying partially on that is an issue, but not completely. As I answered someone else before this, I think if you look for some good players, 1 metric simply isn't enough. When I used to pug 1-2 players in my m+ in the past, I used to go through wowprogress to see the dungeon experience of the players if their ilvl seemed good enough. Ilvl alone does not mean much as everyone knows. That way I would see if the guy has proven himself in raid or mythic+ and then invited him if he did seem good enough.

    3) I agree with you completely with that. To me it is a combination of all your achievements from m+ to raiding that make the player, but if the guy is ONLY doing m+ but is pushing 20ish keys, but he is not doing more than heroic raiding, he will still likely be better than a guy who only ever did +10 and raids mythic.

    My personal situation was of someone who does +15 every week with no problem and does raid mythic as well on farm Gul'dan.
    That is why I started that argument, but you seem to actually agree with me mostly so I do not see a point in arguing anymore since you are seeing it logically.

    The last point you made well that is basically what I meant when I said 15-20 in time is kinda easy. It did take into consideration the affixes because as you said for example, Upper Kara with tyrannical can be a real pain like HoV high keys were before they nerfed the dmg the boss dealt. It is all subjective to which keys and affixes, but in most weeks there is at least 2-3 dungeons that can be done easily with a good group till 19-20.

    P.S. I only pugged a 15 like twice since 7.2 as I do them with my guild most of the time so all I argued about mostly will not even affect me, but it will affect others in a similar position to mine when they want to pug which is why I argued about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    which is only showing how cancerous for wow shit like wowprogres , logs and number meters are - tbh blizzard act accordingly and should start baning everybody whouses it as req in grup finder - its promoting nothign but toxicity in wow community

    but blizzard dont cares about its community simple as that
    Then how do you invite people to your group ? First joined first invited ?? You don't make much sense and do not provide a valid argument.

    As much as I agree that it can suck to be judged on ilvl for example when you are on an alt that is like 10ilvl below what they ask but you are a really good player and know you would perform well, removing the source of information the player's performance is clearly not an answer. The players are to blame if they judge you by the wrong metric, but banning them would mean banning 90% of the group finder playerbase.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by pseudoJ View Post
    So? I've had people in 905 performing really well. I also had people in 915 with 10/10M (they had the Gul'dan kill, not just their guild) who played the dungeon like utter garbage. Why do some raiders think that the fact that they downed mythic entitles them for instant invite?
    The skillset for high level raiding and high level dungeoneering (can we make this a word?) are slightly different. A huge part of success is the knowledge of the exact combination of dungeon and affixes that week (as well as classes in the group).

    I understand people can get ridiculous (which happens all the time since people want to get carried). However I likely wouldn't take you into anything beyond 15 since frankly I have no desire to carry people when I want to push and I don't see anything wrong in forming a group with similar score to mine (about 2.2K -- yes I know it's not that high)
    And this is the problem with the current M+ system. You shouldn't get on the leaderboard if you fail to complete the dungeon in time. People spend many runs optimizing even with good affixes to get a 25 done in time, then they can take 2x-3x the time limit on a 26 and get an extra 10 points. Hell, just being in a 20 in each dungeon even if you fail miserably still gets you a 2400 score, and that makes you better than say someone who enjoys 3 chesting 15-17s?

    In mythic raids you don't get loot if you fail to meet the requirements of the boss. The rating system for M+ is a bit fucked in this aspect, and AFAIK if you show anyone you have a 2200 with half of your keys being done not in time and they're not ridiculously hard affixes, you're not really saying much.

    The skillset really isn't any different. Learning mechanics, optimizing to remove failure, maximizing effectiveness, and working around the affixes is the same kind of thing you have to do to down mythic bosses before they nerf the shit out of raids by juicing up players or flat nerfing encounters, assuming you're actually trying to complete the key in time to get an upgrade. Once you start hitting the point at which the health of things or the affixes force you to slow down, it comes down to pushing out numbers just like it does in raiding, all else equal. You miss the timer by 2 minutes, so you try to figure out where you can shave off 2 minutes, and if you can't just chain more mobs due to something like bolstering, you just have to suck less and/or do more DPS. The difference is once you get more throughput, you can always do a harder key, and there are speed records to beat (just like old CMs) and upper limits on certain affixes, which is what I'm seeing some of the best M+ players focusing on, not exclusively maximizing their M+ score which seems like a really useless thing if you're even capable of completing a 25 for instance.

    I know a good player will easily adapt to high M+ play within a short time, and exclusively filtering on M+ score is about as useful as using ilvl, it's not a good measure. In any case, if you're not looking to push above 20, it doesn't really matter so long as the person is reasonably competent, and above that it's mostly about people who have established themselves as good, and the correlation between that and high M+ score isn't enough to justify ignoring the player.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    LOL WHAT
    mythic xavius
    harder then mythic spellblade
    PFFFT that is a quick way to show you know fucking nothing about raiding
    Il'gynoth and Cenarius were both harder than krosus, tich and bot.
    NH is just gated by gear. Mechanically its a joke of a raid which probably is one of the reasons we have a thousand guilds kill the last boss in record time.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Tolian View Post
    Ok, so get high level runs in on everything. I've been focused mainly on the dungeons that drop loot I'd use, but I'll hit up the others. Part of the problem I foresee though is I live on a fairly advanced server, so the cutoff for the top 100 (which wowprogress uses to pull the data from) is pretty steep. Some dungeons you don't even make the top 100 until you run a 13 or 14 lol.
    then you have your answer already run higher than 14s theyre not very hard till you get more in the 19+ range with 300% increases

  16. #56
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BergErr View Post
    Il'gynoth and Cenarius were both harder than krosus, tich and bot.
    NH is just gated by gear. Mechanically its a joke of a raid which probably is one of the reasons we have a thousand guilds kill the last boss in record time.
    yes, that is why ilg and cen were done much, much faster then krosus

    dude guys am i the only one seeing this? somone helped me out here, this is too much stupidty for me to handle
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    My ideas are objectively good

  17. #57
    God people will do anything to be elitists. Maybe we should start running credit checks on people first? Minimum salary?

    Kind of sad that some are so desperate to appear better than others.

  18. #58
    Deleted
    So since WoWProgress M+ score is a criteria now...
    its a criteria for at least the last 6 month, maybe earlier.

  19. #59
    So if you want to push M+, you server transfer to a dead realm to get ranked on the leaderboard easier? But if you want end game raiding, you stay on a high pop realm for more good players?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hashcrypt View Post
    God people will do anything to be elitists. Maybe we should start running credit checks on people first? Minimum salary?

    Kind of sad that some are so desperate to appear better than others.
    They should put up a craigslist ad asking for ninja rockstar M+ DPS.
    TO FIX WOW:1. smaller server sizes & server-only LFG awarding satchels, so elite players help others. 2. "helper builds" with loom powers - talent trees so elite players cast buffs on low level players XP gain, HP/mana, regen, damage, etc. 3. "helper ilvl" scoring how much you help others. 4. observer games like in SC to watch/chat (like twitch but with MORE DETAILS & inside the wow UI) 5. guild leagues to compete with rival guilds for progression (with observer mode).6. jackpot world mobs.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    So if you want to push M+, you server transfer to a dead realm to get ranked on the leaderboard easier? But if you want end game raiding, you stay on a high pop realm for more good players?


    deosnt really work that way, sometimes your 13/14 doesnt count, because its not in the top 100, but if your achievement are 13/14s, you wont have enough score to join anyway, as people request 2k+ and if you run 15/16, they are pretty much guaranteed to be counted regardless of realm, the actual rank on leaderboards means squat for your score.

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