Should WF/TF have a cap?

[Hctaz]

But the world first raiding scene is built around the concept that a new raid comes out, you burn through it as fast as possible in a few weeks by taking vacation time at work, then after the race is over they drop into maintenance mode, go more casual and do split runs and whatnot to slowly regear for the next raid. Without a TF cap, it helps prevent them from ever dropping into maintenance mode. They've gotta push harder every week.

Yeah this. This is why so many guilds in the race for the world first dropped the fuck out of Legion. They probably realized that the grind is never going to end this expansion and they're fucked as more and more raids come out as well as more and more AP grinds. You literally can't take a week off now, whereas before you could realistically clear the raid in 1-2 weeks, farm for 2 months for BiS, and then quit for 4 months while the next raid is in development. It takes a lot of the burn out away from these raiders.

[daenerys]

The reason for a cap is that, without one, world first raiding guilds will be required to run spend a lot more time running old content to properly max out their gear. That leads to burnout and helps destroy the world first raiding scene. If you're ok with that, then don't cap it. If you like having a world first raiding scene, then you want a cap on WF/TF gear.

But the world first raiding scene is built around the concept that a new raid comes out, you burn through it as fast as possible in a few weeks by taking vacation time at work, then after the race is over they drop into maintenance mode, go more casual and do split runs and whatnot to slowly regear for the next raid. Without a TF cap, it helps prevent them from ever dropping into maintenance mode. They've gotta push harder every week.

Designing a game around 100 people pushing world first content, when you have on the order of five million subscribers is not good game design. I personally don't care about the world first raiding scene, as most players don't. If blizzard can make a game better for 99.999% of the player base, but worse for 0.001% than i say go for it. No matter what you do you'll never make anyone happy, so make as many happy as possible, and most people enjoy getting that awesome titanforge.

[munkeyinorbit]

And your response is "FUCK YOU MYTHIC RAIDERS! You're so jealous of us even being close to you fuck! I can't believe you're trying to get this titanforge system removed simply because you don't like players like me being on your powerlevel! Well fuck you it's not going to change!"

Like... who the fuck cares. You and me in equal gear and I'll trounce you on DPS regardless. I do not care what your item level is. All I care about is not having to burn myself out on the boring shit in this game in order to be optimal for the actual fun content.

You seem to care a lot buddy. I would smash you in the same gear. Your temperament shows that all you do is get carried and you think you are better than other people? LOL, that is so pathetic. Cry less about what the "bads" do and concentrate on not being a burden to your guild.

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Except... what I said is factually correct. Those players have not achieved the same things as mythic raiders have(or heroic raiders or normal raiders, if we're talking about those who only do LFR). And once again, people who don't deserve good gear getting good gear is not the primary issue with titanforging.

If it is not the primary reason then why are you having a bitch that other people, who you deem to be worst people, get gear? Or is this another player who thought that you needed 51 talents in your artifact to get past 3/10 mythic. No wonder the top guilds are folding when all they have to recruit from is bads who think gear is better than skill.

[Kokolums]

Designing a game around 100 people pushing world first content, when you have on the order of five million subscribers is not good game design. I personally don't care about the world first raiding scene, as most players don't. If blizzard can make a game better for 99.999% of the player base, but worse for 0.001% than i say go for it. No matter what you do you'll never make anyone happy, so make as many happy as possible, and most people enjoy getting that awesome titanforge.

Its more than the 100 people pushing world first. Its also people who are building up their toons and aspire to get into the top 100. Its also the audience that likes to sit in the in the bleachers so to speak and watch the race take place. It generates interest in the game. If you value that, then you might have an issue with no TF cap.

[Lens Hunter]

Sweet! Best in slot trinket dropped on our Mythic boss kill, totally my turn to get it!

*Doesnt roll WF/TF*

Welp, fuck my life.

[Resentless]

I don't understand why there is a difference. So warforged is 5/10 ilvl increase... titanforged is 15+ but theres plenty of +5/10 ilvl increases during titanforge but it doesnt get a new name... why isnt it all just titanforged?

[daenerys]

Its more than the 100 people pushing world first. Its also people who are building up their toons and aspire to get into the top 100. Its also the audience that likes to sit in the in the bleachers so to speak and watch the race take place. It generates interest in the game. If you value that, then you might have an issue with no TF cap.

No one who doesn't already play WoW excessively is interested in the world first race. It doesn't bring any people in. It doesn't have any e-sport value like most of blizzards other games.

[Hctaz]

You seem to care a lot buddy. I would smash you in the same gear. Your temperament shows that all you do is get carried and you think you are better than other people? LOL, that is so pathetic. Cry less about what the "bads" do and concentrate on not being a burden to your guild.

No. You wouldn't. There also was no anger at all I was merely quoting the absurd arguments and logic I've seen from people like you on this forum. And I sat there and straight up told you why I don't care what your gear is and you straight up ignored me. I mean I beat other people in my class with higher item level. To think you'd stand a chance in equal gear is laughable at best. You'd have to be a better player than the top 5% of frost dks clearing mythic in the world. You're some random guy on the internet complaining about imaginary Mythic players whining about bads getting gear when we literally do not care about hindering your play. We just want things to be better for us. Like... nobody who does LFR even needs 925 gear anyway. They don't need gear higher than whatever the base item level of the gear that drops is. That's how the raid works. It's designed to be beaten in gear that is of the same quality as what drops in the difficulty. If you're an LFR raider in 905 gear then you're severely overgearing the content for literally no reason. A group of monkeys could clear LFR by smashing their faces on the keyboards.

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Designing a game around 100 people pushing world first content, when you have on the order of five million subscribers is not good game design. I personally don't care about the world first raiding scene, as most players don't. If blizzard can make a game better for 99.999% of the player base, but worse for 0.001% than i say go for it. No matter what you do you'll never make anyone happy, so make as many happy as possible, and most people enjoy getting that awesome titanforge.

It isn't just worse for the top 5 guilds in the world it's just worse in general for anybody who takes themselves and their character progression seriously. It affects even heroic raiders who don't want their guild to keep running normal and LFR for upgrades.

[munkeyinorbit]

No. You wouldn't. There also was no anger at all I was merely quoting the absurd arguments and logic I've seen from people like you on this forum. And I sat there and straight up told you why I don't care what your gear is and you straight up ignored me. I mean I beat other people in my class with higher item level. To think you'd stand a chance in equal gear is laughable at best. You'd have to be a better player than the top 5% of frost dks clearing mythic in the world. You're some random guy on the internet complaining about imaginary Mythic players whining about bads getting gear when we literally do not care about hindering your play. We just want things to be better for us. Like... nobody who does LFR even needs 925 gear anyway. They don't need gear higher than whatever the base item level of the gear that drops is. That's how the raid works. It's designed to be beaten in gear that is of the same quality as what drops in the difficulty. If you're an LFR raider in 905 gear then you're severely overgearing the content for literally no reason. A group of monkeys could clear LFR by smashing their faces on the keyboards.

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It isn't just worse for the top 5 guilds in the world it's just worse in general for anybody who takes themselves and their character progression seriously. It affects even heroic raiders who don't want their guild to keep running normal and LFR for upgrades.

There is definitely anger in your tone. You are sitting there at your keyboard literally freaking out. "HOW DARE THIS PERSON WHO I AM BETTER THAN TALK TO ME LIKE THIS". The tone is all through your text. It is pretty funny to be honest because I would stomp you and that is likely to make you cry. The idea that you think you need to have equal gear to what drops to clear a place is laughable. How much did you pay to get your gear? Come on, be honest about it. Time to fess up. No real player, whether they are LFR or Mythic would depend on gear to beat a boss. They would use their skill. Sure, LFR players need less of it but you just come across as an angry kid who hates it when people disagree with you. OMG I pity your guild.

[daenerys]

It isn't just worse for the top 5 guilds in the world it's just worse in general for anybody who takes themselves and their character progression seriously. It affects even heroic raiders who don't want their guild to keep running normal and LFR for upgrades.

Heroic guilds don't run LFR. That's just not something they do. If you're running heroic raids, it's far more about execution that it is gear. My guild is to small to run Mythics, so we just do heroics. We will run a Normal run once a week, but 3/4 of the people bring alts, because that small chance for an upgrade isn't worth it for heroic raiders, and those on their mains, are there for the AP, and legendary chance. And none of us run LFR.

Everyone in my heroic guild loves titanforging. When someone gets a titanforged item they're happy. None of them have ever felt they need to run LFR/Normal for titanforged gear.

[Hctaz]

There is definitely anger in your tone. You are sitting there at your keyboard literally freaking out. "HOW DARE THIS PERSON WHO I AM BETTER THAN TALK TO ME LIKE THIS". The tone is all through your text. It is pretty funny to be honest because I would stomp you and that is likely to make you cry. The idea that you think you need to have equal gear to what drops to clear a place is laughable. How much did you pay to get your gear? Come on, be honest about it. Time to fess up. No real player, whether they are LFR or Mythic would depend on gear to beat a boss. They would use their skill. Sure, LFR players need less of it but you just come across as an angry kid who hates it when people disagree with you. OMG I pity your guild.

Your bait post is pathetic but I'll bite. First off, my tone is sarcasm and not anger. It amuses me that you make such generalizations and claim you're better than all of us but your gear is bad. Go on then. Show me where you outperform all the other players of your class. I'll be waiting sipping on my beer reading the rest of constructive arguments being placed from either side on this thread and ignoring the ones from players like you who INSIST we're angry and trying to remove casual fun because we just can't STAND it when you're so much better geared than us.

You're also certainly making a lot of assumptions about me and the generalization of players that are incredibly false. You can't buy your way to performance. Anybody can play like shit with a 920 item level and lose to somebody who plays extremely well with a 910. I have actual numbers and performance to back my claims up that I have actually mostly mastered how to play my class effectively at a mythic raiding level and have been doing so since WotLK; heroic as it was called then.

You haven't made any substantial claims other than what you've thought of in your own head, and it looks like you whole-heartedly believe that what your brain comes up is 100% true but that isn't how the world works. "Pics or it didn't happen" is the phrase here. You have nothing to back up any of your claims. You say I'm upset but I'm being sarcastic and chill. You say you can out perform me in equal gear yet you have no proof while I have proof that I can back up what I'm saying. You say that I care that some LFR player has more 925s than me but I don't. Like I said, I'd out dps them anyway even in similar gear than me more than 90% of the time and I can back that up with numbers as evidence as well.

Basically, just stop trolling. You aren't fooling anybody.

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Heroic guilds don't run LFR. That's just not something they do. If you're running heroic raids, it's far more about execution that it is gear. My guild is to small to run Mythics, so we just do heroics. We will run a Normal run once a week, but 3/4 of the people bring alts, because that small chance for an upgrade isn't worth it for heroic raiders, and those on their mains, are there for the AP, and legendary chance. And none of us run LFR.

Everyone in my heroic guild loves titanforging. When someone gets a titanforged item they're happy. None of them have ever felt they need to run LFR/Normal for titanforged gear.

See but you can't just generalize every heroic raider based on what your guild does. It's different after you've cleared the tier you're working on and, if the only thing truly holding you back from Mythic is your roster size and not level of skill, it sounds like you've probably cleared heroic pretty quickly into the tier. Progression is always aids since you have an obligation to continue improving upon your character more and more in order to clear the tier, but it's even more so aids when you know you could be getting infinite sources of potential upgrades from running M+ or at least a higher chance of getting an upgrade by clearing heroic and normal than you would have simply clearing your farm on mythic. This is true even if your base item level is higher than what heroic or normal drops normally. That just shouldn't be the case. I mean it's been proven time and time again that people concerned with progression raiding are going to go all out. Giving any incentive for a mythic raider to spend 24/7 grinding M+ is going to be bad... >.<

[kurama]

If I already have some pieces that are better than a mythic drop then someting is wrong, because the loot is definitely part of the reward.

I'm not againts a LFR raider gets a nice drop from the raid and makes him happy, but I'm againts the chance to get the gear at the same level from a mythic raid.

If the system caps to the base ilvl from the mythic difficulty like in this tier 905 (base mythic ilvl) the system could be really good, because you can still get nice rewards doing all the difficulties and the mythic raiders could get good rewards too and the possibilty to get almost a BIS gear doing the maximum difficulty, and the endless grind system will be still a thing because AP and legendary items.

[Redblade]

It's interesting to see all these arguments against any sort of solution...

We have suggestions ranging from a cap of the difficulty above, that mythic drops max i-lvl and can only forge third stat or socket, that WF/TF forging caps at mythic base level, that WF/TF adds increase with difficulty.

What I find funny is that most of these solutions have very little negative impact on the non mythic raiders. The first solution has the most as it would require players to progress through the content to get upgrades. The second has no impact at all on the non mythic raids. The third has a limited impact as it removes 20 i-lvl from the potential forging. And the last one has no negative impacts on the non mythic raiders, it's even got some positive for the heroic raiders.

So how come these non mythic raiders are so against fixing the problem? Could it be that they have ulterior motives outside the good of the game? :thinking:

[Deleted]

That's cool to be 912 with 0/10 Mythic. My mate is 914 with 10/10 Mythic since 2 months.

But I only spend 2 hours in raid per week, he spend 6+ hours.

I have done 177 M+ with this char, he done 17XX.

[Deleted]

So how come these non mythic raiders are so against fixing the problem? Could it be that they ulterior motives outside the good of the game? :thinking:

Speaking as a LFR raider:
I don't see the problem with leaving the system as is. I think it is good, I know the chance of me getting good TF procs is low for me and I am fine with it. From my perspective, everyone else seems to have a problem with me getting those rare good procs.
Also from my perspective, the suggestions aren't good for my game. True, I don't need super high itemlevel gear for what I do, but it's nice as hell to be able to do content faster, especially solo. I am willing to spend more time playing the game when I have good gear than I am when I don't. Example, I am at a place where I can solo those rare elites now. I then spend time doing that. That keeps me subscribing and Blizzard is happy. From my perspective, that is good for the game. Before I got to that gear level, I didn't bother even trying to solo them, so I didn't spend time trying to. Had I been unable to get higher itemlevels, simply because I don't do higher content, I would do as I have done in the past and unsubscribe. That is not good for the game.

[Redblade]

Speaking as a LFR raider:
I don't see the problem with leaving the system as is. I think it is good, I know the chance of me getting good TF procs is low for me and I am fine with it. From my perspective, everyone else seems to have a problem with me getting those rare good procs.

But how would anything change for you if the cap is set at mythic base level (905), or if heroic and mythic raiders get better odds of WF/TF, or if mythic drops simply done have the WF/TF system and drop at max level? I mean the first would possibly change a random lucky drop once in a blue moon but realistically it makes no difference in your life, you can still solo elites with 905 gear. The other two doesn't change a thing for you.

This is the problem with a lot of the arguments against a solution because the only motivation behind it that I can see is that the people arguing can't accept the fact that some players might get better rewards than them for actually putting in both more effort and skill in to the game. Basically "I can't be arsed to make the effort but I feel entitled to the rewards anyway".

[Deleted]

But how would anything change for you if the cap is set at mythic base level (905), or if heroic and mythic raiders get better odds of WF/TF, or if mythic drops simply done have the WF/TF system and drop at max level? I mean the first would possibly change a random lucky drop once in a blue moon but realistically it makes no difference in your life, you can still solo elites with 905 gear. The other two doesn't change a thing for you.

You're absolutely right. "Solution" 2 and 3 changes nothing for me. So what does me having a small chance of higher-than-LFR gear change for those that are raiding mythic? I am in no way a competition for them. They are consistantly getting better gear than me, because base ilevel is higher, so I have to rely on extreme luck to get anywhere near their ilevel...

Why come up with a solution to something that isn't a problem? That's only making a problem of it. Like Flying.

[Eazy]

Boohoo. You are so pathetic that you can't even get into Mythic Raiding and you are still bitching about this theoretical bad running around in 925s. Time to grow up.

I'm not into mythic raiding because my job don't let me(and check my logs, I actually was in WOD, but now? I have more important things to do than playing games), I have totally different schedule every week. Going personal because you can't handle the truth?

And this is the reason that the Mythic Raids should be removed folks. Too many people think that their achievements are better than others and all they do is bitch about what others do. "Oh no, some spastic got a piece of gear. I'm going to have a big fat cry about the this and make myself to look like an idiot". Mission Accomplished.

Now I see who's the cry baby. The one who's complaining about mythic raiders, because he just envy them and cannot be on their level. It's really the reason why you're mad at people who wants fair gameplay? Are you really so unsuccessful in life that you have to do such a thing? Damn, it seem like it's time to change your point of view, otherwise you'd be lost in this world.

[Redblade]

So what does me having a small chance of higher-than-LFR gear change for those that are raiding mythic?

Nothing, that's not what, from what I can see, the mythic raiders in here are arguing against though.

Why come up with a solution to something that isn't a problem? That's only making a problem of it. Like Flying.

But it is a problem for mythic raiders which is why said proposed solutions are being discussed.

[Deleted]

But it is a problem for mythic raiders which is why said proposed solutions are being discussed.

How do you suggest we solve my problem then?