Should WF/TF have a cap?

[Tradu]

If it is not the primary reason then why are you having a bitch that other people, who you deem to be worst people, get gear? Or is this another player who thought that you needed 51 talents in your artifact to get past 3/10 mythic. No wonder the top guilds are folding when all they have to recruit from is bads who think gear is better than skill.

Because there can be multiple reasons, and more than one of those might be worth discussing? The main issue with TF is forcing players back into content they've outgrown, shit players getting better gear than they deserve is secondary to that, but still relevant. Also, gear and skill are not mutually exclusive, you can have both(and if you're good, chances are you'll do your very best to get gear/AP etc)

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No one who doesn't already play WoW excessively is interested in the world first race. It doesn't bring any people in. It doesn't have any e-sport value like most of blizzards other games.

"Most of Blizzard's other games?" HotS esports never took off in the first place(it's being artificially propped up by Blizzard, that's it). SC2 died very quickly and is now in the same situation as HotS essentially. HS has never been taken seriously as an esport because of how random it is and keeps going further in that direction. WoW arena is very niche, and considered very poorly balanced generally. That leaves OW as the only game with any real esports success.
Don't necessarily disagree with your first point, though. The world first race is probably not getting a lot of people into the game, because most of the people who care also raid or raided anyway.

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There is definitely anger in your tone. You are sitting there at your keyboard literally freaking out. "HOW DARE THIS PERSON WHO I AM BETTER THAN TALK TO ME LIKE THIS". The tone is all through your text. It is pretty funny to be honest because I would stomp you and that is likely to make you cry. The idea that you think you need to have equal gear to what drops to clear a place is laughable. How much did you pay to get your gear? Come on, be honest about it. Time to fess up. No real player, whether they are LFR or Mythic would depend on gear to beat a boss. They would use their skill. Sure, LFR players need less of it but you just come across as an angry kid who hates it when people disagree with you. OMG I pity your guild.

Yeah, no real player depends on gear, that's why all the world first guilds go into every raid entirely naked and just skill the bosses to death. Are you actually serious?

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How do you suggest we solve my problem then?

By using one of the suggestions that have absolutely no impact on you(making mythic drops the maximum ilevel when they drop, or capping other stuff at mythic base but letting mythic forge a couple of ilevels higher). Again, you can have your craaaazy random loot, but that can be done while also allowing mythic raid loot and mythic raiders to not have to be part of that RNG fiesta.

[Deleted]

By using one of the suggestions that have absolutely no impact on you

That's not my problem.

[Redblade]

That's not my problem.

Then I'm confused...what was your problem again?

[Deleted]

Then I'm confused...what was your problem again?

That other people are ruining my fun.

[Accendor]

Yes lets develop the game just for the 'majority community'...what could possibly go wrong.

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It has little to no relevance when you're in mythic gear...

M+ has has little to no relevance?

[Jerot]

The system should be removed, there is enough RNG with rewards. If you want higher ilvl gear, do harder content.

Its creating this unhealthy gear treadmill where you basically have zero control where your upgrades come from, you could spend weeks working on a boss with your guild and finally have a piece drop. Do a world quest and get an titanforged piece with better secondaries and the same ilvl. There is nothing wrong with gear caps and completing content. People used to do this and either move onto alts, harder content, or take a break. Now there are no caps, you can grind infinitely with less and less return and people burn out.

ilvl is more meaningless than ever, and people are outgearing content and becoming lazy. If a new player tried to get into content on their own, good luck, everyone wants base ilvl +10 or more these days. Because people are grinding out stuff they already outgear for upgrades.

Mythic+ is a good enough system to keep people coming back to 5 man content, reputation rewards, gold, and resources will keep people doing World Quests. Warforge/Titanforge aren't adding anything to the system at this point except inflating ilvl to the point where they need to rebalance content multiple times within an expansion to keep it from breaking.

[Redblade]

That other people are ruining my fun.

And what does that have to do with WF/TF system?

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M+ has has little to no relevance?

Yes, sadly. In M+ you still need WF/TF on top of the right piece of gear to drop which makes it so unlikely that it's rarely worth your time.

[Deleted]

And what does that have to do with WF/TF system?

Directly, nothing. But indirectly, by a small majority of the players feeling it's unfair TO THEM that someone like me has a very tiny chance of getting a few pieces of gear that they feel belong to them alone and thus wants to change the system to cater to themselves instead of letting me have a little fun when I get it.... There's something not fun about that.

I repeat what I've said earlier in this thread:

Your solution is not a solution, because the system is not broken. It's working as intended. And it's fine.

[Redblade]

Directly, nothing. But indirectly, by a small majority of the players feeling it's unfair TO THEM that someone like me has a very tiny chance of getting a few pieces of gear that they feel belong to them alone and thus wants to change the system to cater to themselves instead of letting me have a little fun when I get it.... There's something not fun about that.

No we're talking about changes that cater to us while allowing you to still having your fun...like I said, the proposed changes doesn't impact you in any way. And that people think it's unfair is nothing you nor I nor Blizz can do anything about.

[Deleted]

No we're talking about changes that cater to us while allowing you to still having your fun.

Considering the very very tiny chance of me actually getting anything above 900 in the content I do, with the current system, how exactly is it unfair to you?

Edit, just checked my armoury. Ignoring Legendaries and World Boss drops that are 900, since everyone can get those, I actually only have ONE item above 900. In 10 months of Legion I have ONE item at current max itemlevel and ONE at 890, rest are below that. In 10 months of Legion, I am nowhere near the itemlevel of mythic raiders. So again, how is this unfair to mythic raiders that people like me get EXTREMELY lucky now and then, when it is not happening constantly?

[Redblade]

Considering the very very tiny chance of me actually getting anything above 900 in the content I do, with the current system, how exactly is it unfair to you?

Edit, just checked my armoury. Ignoring Legendaries and World Boss drops that are 900, since everyone can get those, I actually only have ONE item above 900. In 10 months of Legion I have ONE item at current max itemlevel and ONE at 890, rest are below that. In 10 months of Legion, I am nowhere near the itemlevel of mythic raiders. So again, how is this unfair to mythic raiders that people like me get EXTREMELY lucky now and then, when it is not happening constantly?

Did I say it was?

My problem is that we are "forced" to grind lower difficulties just in case we get lucky with WF/TF. Either of the proposed solutions will solve or alleviate that problem without having any real impact on you.

[epLe]

Blizzard do not "force" anyone to do anything for a WF/TF.

Caring too much about what gear other people have, is a selfinflicted problem.
And this is what your solution is all about.

Think back how things was in old days, without any upgrades.
When a person got the gear he wanted from an instance, he would often stop showing up for those raid nights.
Otherwise he showed up for "only helping rest of the raid" which most hardcore guilds required from him.

Now they come back, helps other raid members get same gear, and have a shot at an upgraded item for himself.
The WF / TF upgrades just makes it easier for every raid group over time to progress further.

Adjusting something ingame (itemlevels) because of some player getting jealous of other players pixels is just silly.

Only solution is to address what emotional problem cause you to feel forced by a computer game.

[Deleted]

My problem is that we are "forced" to grind lower difficulties just in case we get lucky with WF/TF. Either of the proposed solutions will solve or alleviate that problem without having any real impact on you.

So you are actually making a problem of something that isn't a problem with the game but yourself, and wants a solution to the problem that lies within you, not the game...

[clevin]

Again, this sounds like an incredibly strange mindset. The point of gear is that it's a means to an end, ie a way to get those kills. Yes, getting gear upgrades is always a nice feeling, which is precisely why the WF/TF is such a great system, because you can always potentially keep getting surprise upgrades.
.

And that's precisely why there should be a cap. I got a LFR helm on my druid that TFed to 880 early on in 7.1.5. Since then I've had several other helms drop from what is harder content but which didn't TF so they were 870, 875, etc. That is, the harder content that dropped loot for me was a disappointment because of the lack of a proc. Rather than feeling good because I'd done something harder and gotten a reward, I felt let down because the reward wasn't actually good.

Now, sure, the 880 was nice to have and in terms of power was fine. But having uncapped WF/TF stuff means that the game has severed the link between 'take on more challenging content, succeed and be rewarded!"

[Redblade]

So you are actually making a problem of something that isn't a problem with the game but yourself, and wants a solution to the problem that lies within you, not the game...

You think I'm alone in this? I'm sorry but again you clearly don't understand how mythic raiding works and the problem is with the game if it causes players to burn out and quit.

Again though, I have no idea why you even care as it does not affect you in the slightest as we concluded...

[Tradu]

Directly, nothing. But indirectly, by a small majority of the players feeling it's unfair TO THEM that someone like me has a very tiny chance of getting a few pieces of gear that they feel belong to them alone and thus wants to change the system to cater to themselves instead of letting me have a little fun when I get it.... There's something not fun about that.

I repeat what I've said earlier in this thread:

So basically your point is "the problem doesn't affect me, the solutions don't affect me, so there is no problem"? Nice job having empathy for other people's situation.

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Blizzard do not "force" anyone to do anything for a WF/TF.

Caring too much about what gear other people have, is a selfinflicted problem.
And this is what your solution is all about.

Think back how things was in old days, without any upgrades.
When a person got the gear he wanted from an instance, he would often stop showing up for those raid nights.
Otherwise he showed up for "only helping rest of the raid" which most hardcore guilds required from him.

Now they come back, helps other raid members get same gear, and have a shot at an upgraded item for himself.
The WF / TF upgrades just makes it easier for every raid group over time to progress further.

Adjusting something ingame (itemlevels) because of some player getting jealous of other players pixels is just silly.

Only solution is to address what emotional problem cause you to feel forced by a computer game.

If they didn't show up, then that was a problem with their attitude, not the game. That doesn't mean there was any need to add random extra RNG bullshit to highest end raiding loot. I literally never experienced problems with people not showing up because they didn't loot, if anything that's happening now because people just can't be bothered with the WF/TF lottery.

[fallenangel-succ]

This issue isn't with LFR raiders getting 925 (although that's stupid, but w/e).
The real problem is creating a ton of degenerate issues like running NH in the hopes of getting TF T19 because your set bonuses are better in that tier, or you want 4p+2p, or that trinket is BiS if only it rolls high enough.
The prior raid tiers have never, in the last 10 years of WoW, ever been as meaningful as they're about to be in Legion. Whether you think that's positive or negative, is a matter of perspective.

[Spotnick]

Cap should be -5 the ilvl of mythic raid gear or even on par, and mythic raid gear should be able to titanforged +15/20

It's completely ridiculous that I can get better loot in heroic because I did it a lot more times than in mythic... mythic gul'dan gear should always be an upgrade when you kill it for the first time.

I don't care about other people's loot, I care about feeling rewarded for downing a hard boss.

Sadly Titanforged gear is not as rare as it was said to be

[Termak]

There should be no TF, the +6 WF system in WoD was almost bearable. Old system with static sockets and itemlevels was better. Stupid RNG.

[Deleted]

Personally I think its horrible design, and its sad to see Blizzard changing their perspective on the game so much to make it a thing.

I'm a much bigger fan of having reforging in the game, having sockets on gear and lack of war/titan forging. Reforging was actually one of the greatest things in the game, and combined with sockets it allowed you to do a decently high customization of your gear(specially if you had multiple stats competing). The Warforge/Titanforge introduction just left a sour taste in my mouth from the start- every time I got an item that wasn't warforged you wanted it to be at max temporary. Non WF weapon/trinket->useless!

A bit about the other point. Many set bonuses and trinkets were nerfed in the past because Blizzard did not want guilds/players to feel they were forced to go back there. This system is even worse, because you're not going back there to farm an item, but the chance for the item to be many times better than it should be through RNG.