The Brutality of World War 2

[caervek]

Without American intervention, the USSR probably conquers all of Europe except for the UK, Ireland and Spain.

Nope, the USSR/Stalin didn't become hostile/uncooperative towards the west until after WW2. If they had wanted to conquer "all of Europe except for the UK, Ireland and Spain" they could have done so. They actually wasted time/dallied their run on Berlin to give the allies time to land in France and fight to Berlin so they could take it together. If they had wanted too they could have zerg rushed the Reich and the UK/USA/Canada would have been lucky to meet them at Paris.

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Don't forget USSR were allies with germany at start of WW2 and stabbed Hitler in back in middle of the war.

1: The USSR never allied with Germany, it asked to (after Britain/France refused to ally with it) but Hitler refused so Stalin got him to signed a nonaggression pact instead.

2: That pact turned out to be worth about as much as any of Hitlers "I won't invade you" promises, because he invaded the USSR during the war.

[draynay]

Don't forget USSR were allies with germany at start of WW2 and stabbed Hitler in back in middle of the war.

Gee, I guess I did forget that....

[Deleted]

Nope, the USSR/Stalin didn't become hostile/uncooperative towards the west until after WW2. If they had wanted to conquer "all of Europe except for the UK, Ireland and Spain" they could have done so. They actually wasted time/dallied their run on Berlin to give the allies time to land in France and fight to Berlin so they could take it together. If they had wanted too they could have zerg rushed the Reich and the UK/USA/Canada would have been lucky to meet them at Paris.

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1: The USSR never allied with Germany, it asked to (after Britain/France refused to ally with it) but Hitler refused so Stalin got him to signed a nonaggression pact instead.

2: That pact turned out to be worth about as much as any of Hitlers "I won't invade you" promises, because he invaded the USSR during the war.

Yea that was nonaggression pact, also the treaty included a secret protocol that divided territories of Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Finland, and Romania, into German and Soviet influence.

Its just playing with words.


USSR violated the pact before Germany in 1940. Germany ended pact in 1941

[Dracullus]

1: The USSR never allied with Germany, it asked to (after Britain/France refused to ally with it) but Hitler refused so Stalin got him to signed a nonaggression pact instead.

Totally not allies:



But I'm sure they were just celebrating "nonaggression" pact in the middle of Poland for some reason.

Don't forget USSR were allies with germany at start of WW2 and stabbed Hitler in back in middle of the war. If Stalin never allied with Hitler in the 1st place maybe WW2 would never happen.

More like they were both preparing to stab each other, but Hitler was first. Western Europe (and maybe even whole world) is very lucky it was the case, otherwise Stalin would crush Germany very fast and stomp over defenceless Europe.

[CptEgo]

What scares me most about war history, is just how easy it has been for world leaders to sacrifice other peoples lives in the millions while not ever being in danger themselves.

[Deleted]

What scares me most about war history, is just how easy it has been for world leaders to sacrifice other peoples lives in the millions while not ever being in danger themselves.

Well would they die in 1st week of war there wouldn't be much gain for them.

[xenogear3]

It's a sobering video. 63 million people died during WWII and 1/3rd of them were Soviet Union people.

I don't feel sorry for Soviet Union.
First, it killed its own people.
Then, it invaded Finland.

Soviet Union has unlivable cold weather.
Japan is a small island with tons of volcano and Earthquake.

Both are not afraid to die.
In fact, population is decreasing even today.

[caervek]

Totally not allies:

Correct, the USSR did ask to be allies with Germany (after first asking Britain/France/Belgium who refused) but got turned down, the non aggression pact was the fallback.

That's why Germany declared war on "neutral friends" like the USSR and USA but not on it's allies like Japan and Italy.

[Independent voter]

Nope, the USSR/Stalin didn't become hostile/uncooperative towards the west until after WW2. If they had wanted to conquer "all of Europe except for the UK, Ireland and Spain" they could have done so. They actually wasted time/dallied their run on Berlin to give the allies time to land in France and fight to Berlin so they could take it together. If they had wanted too they could have zerg rushed the Reich and the UK/USA/Canada would have been lucky to meet them at Paris.

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1: The USSR never allied with Germany, it asked to (after Britain/France refused to ally with it) but Hitler refused so Stalin got him to signed a nonaggression pact instead.

2: That pact turned out to be worth about as much as any of Hitlers "I won't invade you" promises, because he invaded the USSR during the war.

The Soviet war machine was funded by mountains of US dollars, if the Soviets tried to conquer the rest of Europe I'm sure we would've stopped funding the Soviet war machine.

In like the year zero Cicero said that money was the sinew of war, that's a thousand times more true today.

We also gave the Soviets 2,000 locomotives and 13,000 boxcars, can you imagine that?

[Dracullus]

Correct, the USSR did ask to be allies with Germany (after first asking Britain/France/Belgium who refused) but got turned down, the non aggression pact was the fallback.

That's why Germany declared war on "neutral friends" like the USSR and USA but not on it's allies like Japan and Italy.

So you will ignore reality, where Stalin and Hitler cooperated before 1941 and attack Poland on the same time, because there wasn't formal alliance?

[caervek]

The Soviet war machine was funded by mountains of US dollars, if the Soviets tried to conquer the rest of Europe I'm sure we would've stopped funding the Soviet war machine.

The USSR stopped being reliant on foreign support well before they started steamrolling the AXIS, Britain/America cutting support would have made no difference at that point, Germany was already doomed and if the USSR had wanted to take most of France too we simply would have been unable to get there in time to stop them.

The idea that Britain/America/Canada/etc stopped the USSR pushing past Berlin is simply a myth, they waited around for us to get there so they could meet us in the middle, it was planned.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

What you said doesn't discount my response to who I responded to at all. Probably because it's impossible to but anyway.

Your comment only applies for after WW2. Not so much for the 165 years of America's existance before it.

Not to mention Europe is a bunch of countries with their own geopolitical goals, culture etc. especially before WW2 so your comment doesn't really apply regardless.

So most of history 'europe' didn't support you as europe wasn't much of a collective.

But geez, imagine being at war for 90% of your existance, pretty crazy. I'd love to see Englands stats I imagine they're pretty up there too. I believe GB fought about 200 wars in a 60 year time period at some point.

Well if we are going into pre-WW2 history lets discuss what the Europeans did to the rest of the world. Sure, it might not have been "war" but pillage and rape certainly becomes front and center. Africa and native civilizations in the Americas would love to say hello to your compassion. Not to mention India, the middle east, and the far east. All of which are in the state they are now pretty much because of direct European interference and rule. America as you like to say is just the latest face in the western side of things in all these areas.

Sure you can play the whole "we weren't one" card but you claim to be now often enough (when it suits your case, obviously). America cannot shove off slavery because "oh that was the south that eventually became its own nation, that nation was defeated, thus we are no longer guilty" type of bullshit. We got to own it (even though one of those bloody links from Europe appear.. slave trade.. says hi).

My whole point is we can look at just about anyone and say "oh evil fucking empire" because that is the nature of empires. Even if it wasn't an "empire" no nation is innocent of acts of aggression or looking out for its own well being. Now some of those acts may have been a LONG time ago but they still count. Oh and if your nation was in NATO it most certainly did fucking support the US. So sure if you live in a former Soviet state or in one of the few that weren't then sure you get a pass on this but then again it supported the Soviets in their conflicts and oppression around the world which were pretty often the same ones the USA was involved in. But if you were I promise you for EVERY SINGLE one of those wars after WW2, if you were a NATO member, you were sharing intel, allowing troops to base and ship in and out from your nation, supplied logistics and allowed logistics to move to and from your nation, and in general supported the war effort if your public was aware of it or not.

It isn't a big deal. It is just the nature of satellite states to larger empires. It happened 10000 years ago and will likely be happening 10000 years from now. Just the places and the whos change. Nothing to cry about. Many European countries were once the evil empires of the world, today its America, one day in the future it might be India or China, but it really doesn't matter. Just human nature. I mean we can even dig though all these pro EU fuck the US posts on theses forums and see people rallying up to turn the EU into an "empire" of sorts too. A ton of "nationalistic" rhetoric comes from it and for some reason usually aimed at the United States. Which to tell you the truth has been nothing but an amazing ally in both military and economic prosperity to most of Europe post WW2.

[Serpha]

Well if we are going into pre-WW2 history lets discuss what the Europeans did to the rest of the world. Sure, it might not have been "war" but pillage and rape certainly becomes front and center. Africa and native civilizations in the Americas would love to say hello to your compassion. Not to mention India, the middle east, and the far east. All of which are in the state they are now pretty much because of direct European interference and rule. America as you like to say is just the latest face in the western side of things in all these areas.

Sure you can play the whole "we weren't one" card but you claim to be now often enough (when it suits your case, obviously). America cannot shove off slavery because "oh that was the south that eventually became its own nation, that nation was defeated, thus we are no longer guilty" type of bullshit. We got to own it (even though one of those bloody links from Europe appear.. slave trade.. says hi).

My whole point is we can look at just about anyone and say "oh evil fucking empire" because that is the nature of empires. Even if it wasn't an "empire" no nation is innocent of acts of aggression or looking out for its own well being. Now some of those acts may have been a LONG time ago but they still count. Oh and if your nation was in NATO it most certainly did fucking support the US. So sure if you live in a former Soviet state or in one of the few that weren't then sure you get a pass on this but then again it supported the Soviets in their conflicts and oppression around the world which were pretty often the same ones the USA was involved in. But if you were I promise you for EVERY SINGLE one of those wars after WW2, if you were a NATO member, you were sharing intel, allowing troops to base and ship in and out from your nation, supplied logistics and allowed logistics to move to and from your nation, and in general supported the war effort if your public was aware of it or not.

It isn't a big deal. It is just the nature of satellite states to larger empires. It happened 10000 years ago and will likely be happening 10000 years from now. Just the places and the whos change. Nothing to cry about. Many European countries were once the evil empires of the world, today its America, one day in the future it might be India or China, but it really doesn't matter. Just human nature. I mean we can even dig though all these pro EU fuck the US posts on theses forums and see people rallying up to turn the EU into an "empire" of sorts too. A ton of "nationalistic" rhetoric comes from it and for some reason usually aimed at the United States. Which to tell you the truth has been nothing but an amazing ally in both military and economic prosperity to most of Europe post WW2.

You are saying Europe but you are either idiot or ignorant since it was 2-3 countries at most (mostly GB)

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From your source: "Approximately three million Polish Jews were victims of the Holocaust."

Depends what do you mean by Holocaust
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

The Columbia Guide to the Holocaust limits the definition of the Holocaust to Jews, Romani, and the Aktion T4 patients who were mentally and physically disabled. Its authors write "all three groups, but only these groups, were equal victims of Nazi racism and genocide

This is what I have a problem with.
Now, some experts say that Holocaust is specific to Nazi death camps, some want to include those that perished outside of camps, either by death or simply were hiding and than most likely immigrated to USA.
They can estimate how many died in camps but estimating how many actually died outside is pure speculation. Having said that they estimate 1.5 mil polish jews died in camps. Compare that with 3 mil native poles that died in camps, isn't that bit weird that they try to ignore that and make the Holocaust exclusively about jews (because no one really tlks about romani)

[Kellhound]

You are saying Europe but you are either idiot or ignorant since it was 2-3 countries at most (mostly GB)

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Depends what do you mean by Holocaust
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

This is what I have a problem with.
Now, some experts say that Holocaust is specific to Nazi death camps, some want to include those that perished outside of camps, either by death or simply were hiding and than most likely immigrated to USA.
They can estimate how many died in camps but estimating how many actually died outside is pure speculation. Having said that they estimate 1.5 mil polish jews died in camps. Compare that with 3 mil native poles that died in camps, isn't that bit weird that they try to ignore that and make the Holocaust exclusively about jews (because no one really tlks about romani)

The Polish Jews WERE native Poles.

[Deleted]

Old video. But I'm glad it was brought to my attention again. It kinda leaves you in awe and those 20 mins fly past as if it's nothing.

[Allybeboba]

Japan would have conquered them easy, and Japan had no oil.

Japan made the fatal error of waking the sleeping lion.

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You are saying Europe but you are either idiot or ignorant since it was 2-3 countries at most (mostly GB)

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Depends what do you mean by Holocaust
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

This is what I have a problem with.
Now, some experts say that Holocaust is specific to Nazi death camps, some want to include those that perished outside of camps, either by death or simply were hiding and than most likely immigrated to USA.
They can estimate how many died in camps but estimating how many actually died outside is pure speculation. Having said that they estimate 1.5 mil polish jews died in camps. Compare that with 3 mil native poles that died in camps, isn't that bit weird that they try to ignore that and make the Holocaust exclusively about jews (because no one really tlks about romani)

It wasn't just Jewish people that were systematically killed in the German death camps.

[Akka]

I've long known that WW2 was the bloodiest conflict in all of history, but I've never really seen a good comparison. Until today.

Warning, this video is a little soul crushing.
http://www.fallen.io/ww2/


I find it interesting that even with all the atrocities commited since the war the general death tolls since then have been drastically less. I don't know if this trend will continue, or like with WW1, which was the first major war since Napoleon, will just be a new powderkeg that is going to explode into another massive war.

Actually, the bloodiest wars might have been the chinese civil war in the early XXth century (estimates vary widely, but it's at the very least on the same scale), and the Mongol conquests (proportionnaly to the population at the time).

Nope, the USSR/Stalin didn't become hostile/uncooperative towards the west until after WW2. If they had wanted to conquer "all of Europe except for the UK, Ireland and Spain" they could have done so. They actually wasted time/dallied their run on Berlin to give the allies time to land in France and fight to Berlin so they could take it together. If they had wanted too they could have zerg rushed the Reich and the UK/USA/Canada would have been lucky to meet them at Paris.

Actually its Stalin which pushed for the Normandy landing because he wanted to lighten the load of the Russians by opening a second front.
He didn't wait for the Allies so they could take both Berlin, which is obvious because the Soviet took Berlin by themselves, and encountered the Allies far to the East (learn some geography and look where Berlin is).
In fact, it's the Allies which stopped advancing into Germany because the point of encounter was decided in advance (around the river Elbe).

It's nice to see people trying to rewrite history.

[Zoranon]

What scares me most about war history, is just how easy it has been for world leaders to sacrifice other peoples lives in the millions while not ever being in danger themselves.

A leader that gets himself killed is a useless leader who may bring great harm to his nation. I believe the last European leader to die in battle was Gustav II Adolf and his death probably cost Sweden victory in that war and prolonged the war considerably.

And as to OP, well the clue is in the name: total war. When nations go to war with each other (as opposed to the older concept of monarch vs. monarch) everybody becomes a target. And sadly, this is a rational calculation.

[Sevyvia]

It's a sobering video. 63 million people died during WWII and 1/3rd of them were Soviet Union people.

You'd think the circumstances that led to such a big war are gone but with the recent Brexit and Trump's talk about NATO you see ghosts of WWII come back, even if just a little.

...what? That literally makes no sense. None of that has to do with trying to be aggressive. It's inwards-facing, rather than outwards. I get that it's to be expected that this forum is heavily left-leaning, but christ. Tone down the "people I disagree with are Satan" line of thinking.

[I Push Buttons]

Due to WW2 being followed by the cold war and the USSR and its allies being the "bad guys" it's often forgotten (because it was flat out not taught for over half a century) that the majority of holocaust victims were ethnic Slavs. Kinda sad that the widest scale ethnic cleansing attempt in history got effectively whitewashed in favour of not making the ruskies look sympathetic.

It was still taught here... As an example of the godlessness and lack of value for life communism had. The tens of millions of Soviets who died in WW2, the tens of millions who died in the purges/mass starvation/gulags in the USSR, and the tens of millions killed in the Great Leap Forward/Cultural Revolution/Laogai in China were all taught as examples of why we were in the right and communism was evil, hence the disdain even moderate socialism has to this day in the US.

Most Soviet losses are just because of YOLO rush tactics and using soldiers as bullets. They just overwhelm their enemy without watching at life lost.

That tends to happen when your paranoid dictator has most of his military command executed for fear they are all out to get him on the eve of the war.

And then establishes a "win at all costs" requirement to the command that remains, where failures are also executed.

Don't forget USSR were allies with germany at start of WW2 and stabbed Hitler in back in middle of the war. If Stalin never allied with Hitler in the 1st place maybe WW2 would never happen.

You have those rolls reversed there, Champ. Hitler invaded Russia.