[Feral] Legion Discussion

[exochaft]

Currently, for me, feral doesn't feel like the class it should be. Back in the day it was more fun, you felt like a big powerful kitty ripping things to shreds and applying bleeds. Now, it's too convoluted and isn't very fun to play with optimal talents. Bloodtalons has to be the most uninteresting talent ever and I hates it. I just don't like how the class is centered around the power of your bleeds.

I think it would be interesting if we had a choice of bleed or direct damage, since Feral has been centered around both in previous expansions. Might be a pain to balance, though, which is why it may be avoided for now.

One aspect that currently drives me nuts with Feral is the gearing aspect. What makes the spec so punishing for my druid (Feral is just an offspec for now) is that even at >910 ilvl equipped, I have almost no crit on my gear. This translates into somewhere around 20-25% crit depending upon gear choices, which in practical applications leads to a lot of "need to use a combo point generator 5 times to get 5 combo points" and low energy situations even after pooling, especially if OoC procs decide to take a vacation. Simulating pure single target is rather funny, because the output simulates very high with the variance of +/- 180k DPS... that's ridiculous. Target dummy numbers corroborate the variance, sadly. When I was swimming in crit gear back when EN was current content (since all the gear pretty much had crit), the spec felt fun and engaging even as an offspec. With all the haste/versa/mastery gear I currently have, I either feel very rewarded for my effort or severely let down because of crit dry spells.

It's easy to say "just go get the right gear," but that's missing the point. I think the spec would fare better if situations such as mine didn't exist in the first place. Mechanically, I think Jagged Wounds is likely the main offender in conjunction with Savage Roar with how the rest of kitty functions compared to previous expansions. At lower crit levels, it's a recipe for disaster and doesn't play well at all. Perhaps I'd rather see Feral have higher baseline crit so that it can function decently well no matter what your gear stats are like. Perhaps would explain the negative Feral perception being perpetuated, because all the other druid specs don't favor and generally avoid crit... so someone trying out Feral will feel like the spec is terrible even if they're playing it right.

[Hellshout]

Hello.
I'm using Stooth instead of JW because I'm still learning to play properly. On dummy it's easy, but during the boss I get distracted and I make mistakes.
I started with SR, JW and MoC for an easy life, but I managed 100k+ dps with Stooth and BT, which I'm sad about, but hey...

Anyway, my best case is to apply Rip with Zerk, TF, SR and BT which I can do at start, but after that if it drops I can only reapply it with TF, SR and BT, but maybe TF is on CD for 20 secs, I gotta apply Rip without it. And most likely I will forget to reapply with TF also for the rest of the fight.
So does anyone have a WA to calculate if my current possible Rip is better than the one I have applied?

Cheers.

[Beingbob]

Is it looking like Sabertooth will be the go-to talent in 7.2.5 due to the big FB buffs? Currently leveling a druid, but I really don't like the concept of Sabertooth.

[-aiko-]

@Hellshout: http://www.fluiddruid.net/forum/view...hp?f=11&t=5723
This will track the power of the bleeds you can put up compared to the bleeds you currently have on the target. Just don't tunnel vision the numbers.

@Beingbob: From what I've gathered from lurking on the Discord, it is unlikely for ST to outperform JW, especially with T20 2pc. I believe with certain setups and prioritizing different relics it can get close but JW will remain the go-to talent. As always, someone who is actually PTR testing can come and correct any misinformation

[Hellshout]

@Hellshout: http://www.fluiddruid.net/forum/view...hp?f=11&t=5723
This will track the power of the bleeds you can put up compared to the bleeds you currently have on the target. Just don't tunnel vision the numbers.

@Beingbob: From what I've gathered from lurking on the Discord, it is unlikely for ST to outperform JW, especially with T20 2pc. I believe with certain setups and prioritizing different relics it can get close but JW will remain the go-to talent. As always, someone who is actually PTR testing can come and correct any misinformation

Thank aiko. Will check.
@Beingbob - I was thinking and hoping the same, but the tier is favoring JW much much more. You gain more energy(2p) from JW due to faster ticks and half of 4p extends Rip by 8 seconds. Sabertooth makes this bonus obsolete, so again JW is favored. Do think that with 8 more seconds of Rip, you can have a chillaxer rotation.
Now I hope they will do smth with MoC, so I can play SR JW and MoC. I despise BT from the bottom of my heart
I don't even want it to be on par with BT, I just want it to be on par with Balance so I can justify switching to Feral.

[Exerionx]

Currently, for me, feral doesn't feel like the class it should be. Back in the day it was more fun, you felt like a big powerful kitty ripping things to shreds and applying bleeds. Now, it's too convoluted and isn't very fun to play with optimal talents. Bloodtalons has to be the most uninteresting talent ever and I hates it. I just don't like how the class is centered around the power of your bleeds.

I know people will rip me for this one, but I personally think Blizzard should do away with combo points for ferals. I guess I don't have an alternative for what they could put in place of it, but I've always thought it was boring we shared the same resource as rogues. I just think a feral kitty should only be concerned with how much energy they have to rip, shred, rake, and bite the opponent to death. Cats conserve a lot of energy for when they get in situations where they really need to go all out. My feral was my first character back when WotLK first came out and I've always loved it, I just wish Blizzard would take these things into consideration. Also, kudos to the people who do enjoy it. I really want to like it, but I can't, fully. I continue to play it because it's my main and honestly I just like being a ferocious kitty. :T

I mean a lot of what you said is subjective. Fair enough you don't like the current play style and that's fine, but you say we should be concerned with managing energy for bleeds only, but Incarnation is currently a completely viable option if you don't want to worry about SR with energy, or at all (which is what I am assuming by you saying we should only worry about bleeds with energy).

I think our class being focused around bleeds and energy management is done pretty well at the moment, and 7.2.5 will be making us use more FB which is definitely something that is important for the 'class fantasy' and general staple of the spec. I probably wouldn't get rid of bleed power myself because I like the decision making behind it but I can definitely see how some people would have issues with it.

[Hellshout]

I did some dummy testing on the PTR to see if I can get away with MoC instead of BT. No chance...
I used MoC with SotA and gloves and BT with SotA and pouncers. I don't have pouncers on live nor did I have the WA to manage the BT stacks properly, yet I still pulled 30k more than MoC, playing hectic and just trying to finish Rip with BT, the rest didn't matter. (I am not so skilled in the art of BTing)

That ring + Ailuro = almost energy cap and tons of BT stacks. It's amazing...(I have none -.-).
Rip hits so hard, it's actually fun to play the proper spec. Too bad it all relies on getting that one legendary that might make or break a spec.

PS: I liked the MoC playstyle also, so many CPs and so much energy, you're actually trying very hard to not cap them.

[hawtlol]

So I just started playing feral again after it being my main from TBC-WoD end. I was wondering which option would be the best route to go. Right now I have 4p with 2 pieces of them being normal the other 2 heroic. Which legendaries should I use and which trinkets should I use. I currently have Maimers, Puncers, and Luffa for legendaries. I have 890 frond, 890 convergence, 900 draught with socket, and 885 urn. I'm currently using frond and convergence with Incarnation instead of SR. I'll occasionally go with frond/draught with SR instead of incarn. Currently sitting at 899/900 ilvl equipped.

[Exerionx]

So I just started playing feral again after it being my main from TBC-WoD end. I was wondering which option would be the best route to go. Right now I have 4p with 2 pieces of them being normal the other 2 heroic. Which legendaries should I use and which trinkets should I use. I currently have Maimers, Puncers, and Luffa for legendaries. I have 890 frond, 890 convergence, 900 draught with socket, and 885 urn. I'm currently using frond and convergence with Incarnation instead of SR. I'll occasionally go with frond/draught with SR instead of incarn. Currently sitting at 899/900 ilvl equipped.

It depends on what pieces you're changing for the legendaries but I would recommend pouncers + luffas with frond and CoF.

More importantly though, you're better off simming it to get the most accurate answer honestly.

[Tradu]

I think it would be interesting if we had a choice of bleed or direct damage, since Feral has been centered around both in previous expansions. Might be a pain to balance, though, which is why it may be avoided for now.

One aspect that currently drives me nuts with Feral is the gearing aspect. What makes the spec so punishing for my druid (Feral is just an offspec for now) is that even at >910 ilvl equipped, I have almost no crit on my gear. This translates into somewhere around 20-25% crit depending upon gear choices, which in practical applications leads to a lot of "need to use a combo point generator 5 times to get 5 combo points" and low energy situations even after pooling, especially if OoC procs decide to take a vacation. Simulating pure single target is rather funny, because the output simulates very high with the variance of +/- 180k DPS... that's ridiculous. Target dummy numbers corroborate the variance, sadly. When I was swimming in crit gear back when EN was current content (since all the gear pretty much had crit), the spec felt fun and engaging even as an offspec. With all the haste/versa/mastery gear I currently have, I either feel very rewarded for my effort or severely let down because of crit dry spells.

It's easy to say "just go get the right gear," but that's missing the point. I think the spec would fare better if situations such as mine didn't exist in the first place. Mechanically, I think Jagged Wounds is likely the main offender in conjunction with Savage Roar with how the rest of kitty functions compared to previous expansions. At lower crit levels, it's a recipe for disaster and doesn't play well at all. Perhaps I'd rather see Feral have higher baseline crit so that it can function decently well no matter what your gear stats are like. Perhaps would explain the negative Feral perception being perpetuated, because all the other druid specs don't favor and generally avoid crit... so someone trying out Feral will feel like the spec is terrible even if they're playing it right.

Gear really doesn't matter as much as you think it does. You can play the spec with just a 34 point artifact and nothing else equipped on singletarget, gear only makes it a little easier. Your dummy tests really show nothing, Feral's variance is not very high.

[hawtlol]

It depends on what pieces you're changing for the legendaries but I would recommend pouncers + luffas with frond and CoF.

More importantly though, you're better off simming it to get the most accurate answer honestly.

I don't find simming very helpful. You're basically just simming Patchwerk fights. You can obviously change certain parameters but you aren't going to get a good grasp on certain difficulty NH fights where lots of adds or downtime is involved.

[Exerionx]

I don't find simming very helpful. You're basically just simming Patchwerk fights. You can obviously change certain parameters but you aren't going to get a good grasp on certain difficulty NH fights where lots of adds or downtime is involved.

I mean that's the answer you're going to get if you want a general idea of what's better. If you want specific boss advice then ask away. But 9 times out of 10 someone will just tell you to sim it.

[Hellshout]

Isn't DoS better if he's playing with SR? It has more ilvl and socket also. CoV works with Incarn, at least according to some guides I read.

[SekhFeral]

I've ranked a few parses in the top ten - I think I have a good idea of what I'm doing.

What level of pug are you parsing? Do you completely pug raids?
If you are parsing at an average of 94% on mythic or even heroic there is no reason to sit a player simply because they are feral. All I was saying.

If a pug is kicking you because you're feral that's in them for being an idiot.

I only pug Heroic and usually do it on reset days. I am not being sat at all in my guild raids for mythic. And I have been denied to heroic raids and M+ before just because I am Feral LOL. Quite entertaining.

[foibooze]

Plenty of bad ferals out there, generally other meleeclasses do better with more utility brought. 50% of the time you're probably being declined to m+ just for being melee rather than being feral.

[Hellshout]

So because the ring can be too OP they're nerfing SotF...
What if I don't have the ring and want to play SotF? Fuck me, right?

Why can't they just change the talent to 5% when you equip the ring and leave it 10% for non-ring situations.

[Cazz17]

Gloves with SotF ring look to be VERY strong on 2/3 target cleave as nearly 300% rip uptime on 3 targets is very close to attainable, which considering the fight designs in ToS include a fairly decent amount of 2 and 3 target cleave it stands to reason that TWC will likely be a lot stronger in ToS than it is in NH atm.

300% uptime?

[TorikSAn]

So because the ring can be too OP they're nerfing SotF...
What if I don't have the ring and want to play SotF? Fuck me, right?

Why can't they just change the talent to 5% when you equip the ring and leave it 10% for non-ring situations.

That what i was afraid of too... Long ago they said they don't whant mandatory legendary items that give to much DPS... So they introduced legendary that give talent from row where every talent give ~15-18% DPS increase... So only way they can solve this... Nerf SotF so it's not as strong as other talents in line, nerf talent line and increase base dps, change talent for ring...

[Whitepaw]

So because the ring can be too OP they're nerfing SotF...
What if I don't have the ring and want to play SotF? Fuck me, right?

Why can't they just change the talent to 5% when you equip the ring and leave it 10% for non-ring situations.

They're basically saying: If you want to do the best possible dps as Feral, you HAVE to take Savage Roar.

At the same time, Feral performance (both raw dps and utility) keeps dropping, as both raid and M+ content favors other dps specs heavily.

[Deleted]

Hey,

I'm a bit confused about the rotation, I read through the google doc guide but frankly it's not written particularly clearly. I run into a situation where I have Rake, Rip or Savage Roar falling off together (sometimes all three at the same time, but usually just 2 of them). Am I just using too many shreds? Should I be prioritizing Savage Roar > Rake > Rip? I feel like I just get close to energy cap a lot as it is and I'm not sure what I can do about this. Also I'm not sure when to work Thrash into my rotation, at the moment I'm just using it on clarity procs, but should I be using it without procs as well?

And last question, should I be focusing my Bloodtalons onto only Rip and Rake or is it okay to get it on Thrash/FB/Shred every now and then?

For context I'm running Jagged Wounds, Bloodtalons and have 31% crit, 16% haste, 59% mastery, 3% vers. With Luffas and Cinidaria as legendaries.