[Balance] Legion Discussion

[Lahis]

Balance druid looks pretty solid moving into 7.2.5 if we can trust these sims?

Need to compare to other classes before you can claim that. Balance has received no buffs in 7.2.5, only one nerf to ED. I fully expect us contiune sit in the lower half/third of the overall meters.

(What is that "_Jacins"?)

[Olski11]

Jacins is the Glove / Boots set from CoS and Arkway. As for the Charts, that makes me a little sad, as i hoped with the ring the 3 dot playstyle would reward something like for example the old surrender to madnes playstyle -> high risk, high reward

[joltcola1234]

How do the upcoming changes to the Emerald Dreamcatcher effect our rotation and haste breakpoints?

We should need less haste obviously, and be able to fit in more spell casts.

Anyone know any specifics?

[Lahis]

How do the upcoming changes to the Emerald Dreamcatcher effect our rotation and haste breakpoints?

We should need less haste obviously, and be able to fit in more spell casts.

Anyone know any specifics?

Propably means more haste to fit enough casts into the 5 second window to keep the cost at 30 Asp.

[Argenon]

Shaman
Elemental Discussions - 7.2.5
Hey guys.

So, part of the reason we haven't had much to share about Elemental is that we don't think there's anything fundamentally wrong with the spec. Most of the changes you've seen to other specs in 7.2.5 thus far have been focused around addressing core mechanical issues. We've only recently begun the process of making changes intended to bring each spec's performance more in line with the others.

The bulk of the feedback we're seeing (in this thread and others) is that Elemental is fun to play, it just doesn't deal enough damage in certain situations. That's the sort of situation that we'll solve through what we generally refer to as "tuning" - e.g, adjusting things like how much damage a spell does, the chance for an effect to activate, and so on. Based on the feedback, those sound like the sort of changes we'd consider for Elemental.

Note that how we define a "mechanical change" vs "tuning" can be a bit blurry, which makes it difficult for us to communicate things like this sometimes. Suffice it to say that changes intended to alter the way you play your class are generally considered mechanical, while changes that simply adjust how effective your class is in certain situations are generally considered tuning. That's still not a perfect explanation but hopefully it helps.

Moreover, tuning isn't a process that's ever really "complete." We constantly monitor class performance and make adjustments where we think they'll help, and fully expect to continue that in the weeks after Patch 7.2.5 releases. Additionally, it's important to remember that the effectiveness of your spec is measured comparatively to other specs; in other words, tuning down an overpowered spec is an indirect buff to everyone else. Sometimes - and I'm not saying this is the case for Elemental, because I'm honestly not certain off the top of my head - we'll decide that it's better to bring an outlier down than it is to buff everyone else.

Anyway, the core of what I'm trying to get across here is that Elemental is definitely on our radar as a spec to pay close attention to as we continue class tuning for 7.2.5. We'll be keeping an eye on Elemental's performance as we continue the tuning process.

However do you not think earthshock damage relative to our other spells and substituting earthquake in single target are possible design flaws?
I can't speak to it personally (I just finished leveling my Shaman a couple weeks ago and I mostly stick to Enhance or Resto) but these are the sorts of things we'd generally look to address via tuning. (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)

Wouldn't it be nice if something like this was directed towards Moonkin?

[Zan15]

Shaman
Elemental Discussions - 7.2.5
Hey guys.

So, part of the reason we haven't had much to share about Elemental is that we don't think there's anything fundamentally wrong with the spec. Most of the changes you've seen to other specs in 7.2.5 thus far have been focused around addressing core mechanical issues. We've only recently begun the process of making changes intended to bring each spec's performance more in line with the others.

The bulk of the feedback we're seeing (in this thread and others) is that Elemental is fun to play, it just doesn't deal enough damage in certain situations. That's the sort of situation that we'll solve through what we generally refer to as "tuning" - e.g, adjusting things like how much damage a spell does, the chance for an effect to activate, and so on. Based on the feedback, those sound like the sort of changes we'd consider for Elemental.

Note that how we define a "mechanical change" vs "tuning" can be a bit blurry, which makes it difficult for us to communicate things like this sometimes. Suffice it to say that changes intended to alter the way you play your class are generally considered mechanical, while changes that simply adjust how effective your class is in certain situations are generally considered tuning. That's still not a perfect explanation but hopefully it helps.

Moreover, tuning isn't a process that's ever really "complete." We constantly monitor class performance and make adjustments where we think they'll help, and fully expect to continue that in the weeks after Patch 7.2.5 releases. Additionally, it's important to remember that the effectiveness of your spec is measured comparatively to other specs; in other words, tuning down an overpowered spec is an indirect buff to everyone else. Sometimes - and I'm not saying this is the case for Elemental, because I'm honestly not certain off the top of my head - we'll decide that it's better to bring an outlier down than it is to buff everyone else.

Anyway, the core of what I'm trying to get across here is that Elemental is definitely on our radar as a spec to pay close attention to as we continue class tuning for 7.2.5. We'll be keeping an eye on Elemental's performance as we continue the tuning process.

However do you not think earthshock damage relative to our other spells and substituting earthquake in single target are possible design flaws?
I can't speak to it personally (I just finished leveling my Shaman a couple weeks ago and I mostly stick to Enhance or Resto) but these are the sorts of things we'd generally look to address via tuning. (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)

Wouldn't it be nice if something like this was directed towards Moonkin?

it kinda is taking about all the forgotten specs that have not been touched.
they really should have turned it into such a post because you could easily say this about many specs that were ignored for the most part this cycle.


Don't worry we will have a post patch tuning process i am sure we will be adjusted if needed (am i doing it right when i keep suggesting something will happen soon?)

[thedeisel]

How do the upcoming changes to the Emerald Dreamcatcher effect our rotation and haste breakpoints?

We should need less haste obviously, and be able to fit in more spell casts.

Anyone know any specifics?

Assuming Starlord (and assuming starlord is multiplicative, ie cast time for empowered spells is

{[cast time / 1.2] * [1/(1+{haste/100}] }
instead of
cast time / [1+ (.2 + haste/100)] :

At zero haste, you can fit in SS GCD + Emp SW + Emp LS. Total cast time is 4.833 seconds.

To fit in another GCD, which would allow you to e.g. use OI procs and refresh dots while spending both empowerments without dropping the buff, 10k haste rating (26.67% haste) gets you a 5 second cast time for SS GCD + Emp SW + Emp LS + GCD. Obviously to account for lag and response time you'd want to get a bit more haste to be comfortable with that window. 10500 haste rating gets you 28% haste and 4.95 casting duration for the SS GCD + Emp SW + Emp LS + GCD.

Obviously, you need less haste than that, though, because with T20 4pc you'll always have at least 3% haste.

Whether it's worth chasing that extra GCD is also up for debate. It's helpful for being able to refresh or spread dots or use OI procs but if you don't try to go for it a high mastery build might be superior. After all, refreshing the dots would just cost you the emp SW and you could avoid wasting those by using 2x SW instead of 1x SW, 1xLS. To get in 2x LS you only need 5000 haste rating/13% haste.

On the other hand, building mastery in favor of haste would allow all your SS and empowered spells hit harder. Given that you basically only have to cast moon spells, SS, and empowered spells with the new window, a high mastery/mid teens-haste build might be the superior choice.

So, TL;DR is we need sims comparing mastery heavy builds to haste heavy builds with ED to see how valuable different haste marks are. In any case, it's pretty unlikely that there's going to be hard break points because we have so many variable haste inputs with our 4 set and Incarnation—not to mention if you have good versions of metronome and/or whispers in the dark. And especially with IFE and the uptime get with Incarnation.

Edit: If starlord is additive:
To get 1 extra GCD in you need about 11k haste rating/29.33% haste. That gets you a cycle time of SS GCD + Emp SW + Emp LS + GCD of 4.99 seconds.

[Myztikrice]

From Slippykins's thread, this is for pure Single Target. Notice how StFl is way down there, as is any instance of SOTA.
Again, PURE Single Target. More uptime on adds/AsP spending on Starfall = the better SOTA gets. (remember, you have to actually spend AsP on Starfall for SOTA's power to matter. Only using OI procs doesn't matter since SOTA doesn't do anything but reduce Starfall's AsP cost).

Aren't those numbers from using the traditional ST rotation? The guy is saying using Starfall as the spender + SOTA + Stellar Flare

[Polarthief]

Yep we should get the same numbers once they introduce a passive 'all spells may be cast while moving' BM style.
Until then...

Yet more of a reason to always take the SL, SotF (Inc with SOTA), ShS, SD build I always run because it's really nice to have an 8s area of free mobile casting

I mean you can probs swap ShS to BOTA if you want, I just enjoy running the SL + AoE spec always.

Jacins is the Glove / Boots set from CoS and Arkway. As for the Charts, that makes me a little sad, as i hoped with the ring the 3 dot playstyle would reward something like for example the old surrender to madnes playstyle -> high risk, high reward

You keep saying "3 dot", are you referring to StFl? That thing is just terrible for ST and is NEVER better to use over Inc.

How do the upcoming changes to the Emerald Dreamcatcher effect our rotation and haste breakpoints?

We should need less haste obviously, and be able to fit in more spell casts.

Anyone know any specifics?

I don't remember how much Haste was mathed, but the optimal rotation was SS > empLS > empSW > SW. This gives you a total of 35 AsP per rotation, meaning a net positive of +5 AsP, meaning every 6 rotations, you will get a free SS to bank (for movement and whatnot). The ED change is VERY QoL-positive for light to medium movement fights. Heavy movement, you'll probably use something else.

Aren't those numbers from using the traditional ST rotation? The guy is saying using Starfall as the spender + SOTA + Stellar Flare

I don't know because I'm not the one that ran the sims, but I'm pretty sure for StFl specifically, it was running Starfall. I just remember Slippy saying something about how Single Target Starfall + StFl was worse over other choices.

If you do enjoy StFl that much though, then yes, Starfall is your go-to single target spender, but again, that's a lot of extra work (using StFl) for literally less DPS than just running Incarnation (or SOTF without SOTA).

[thedeisel]

I don't remember how much Haste was mathed, but the optimal rotation was SS > empLS > empSW > SW. This gives you a total of 35 AsP per rotation, meaning a net positive of +5 AsP, meaning every 6 rotations, you will get a free SS to bank (for movement and whatnot). The ED change is VERY QoL-positive for light to medium movement fights. Heavy movement, you'll probably use something else.

Like I mapped out above, the amount you need to get that extra gcd worth in the window is a bit over 10k before counting in the T20 4pc or any other haste bonus (ie the equivalent of the current 11500 break point).

But you definitely wouldn't want to do SS -> emp LS -> emp SW -> unemp SW as the basic rotation with ED even though that's AP positive. That's because you'd be casting an unempowered nuke which is half the damage (at best) of an empowered one. Even though you'd be AP positive, the basic rotation of using your Starsurge and Empowerments is so AP minimal in terms of impact that when combined with the moon spells you'll never need to cast anything besides empowered spells, moon spells, and Starsurge.

The only reason you might try to squeeze in that extra unemp SW is if you wanted to bank a bit more AP for upcoming movement.

But there's no reason to be AP positive just because. After all, you'd quickly start just wasting that AP anyway.

In any case, like I said above, it's not clear that sacrificing mastery to go after the extra GCD between Starsurges is even worth it. Need sims comparing heavy mastery/lowish haste with builds that get the 10k breakpoint. My guess is the breakpoint doesn't really matter.

[Polarthief]

<snip>

For movement you'll deffo want to bank AsP, but if you're not running that rotation, what exactly do you recommend? With the 5s duration, you're intended to stay in ED as long as possible (even reaching >95% uptimes), unless you plan to fully rely on the moon spells to keep your AsP positive (which I don't see as a good idea if your normal rotation isn't at least decently positive).

The only rotation you can do to not cast unempowered spells is LS SW, but that's only 25 AsP and your Moon spells don't recharge quick enough to allow them to be relied on (especially NM).

[thedeisel]

In general you'd want to just cast: SS -> empSW -> empLS on repeat. To make things simple, you can just replace 1 SW with a newmoon and 1LS with a half moon and one pair of SW and LS with a Full moon every 45 seconds.

Starting at 130 AP without the buff and doing just that simple rotation you'd only lose about 50 AP over the course of your 45 second moon cycle depending on your levels of haste. ED makes starsurge so cheap, you're only losing 5 AP SS + Emp SW + EMP LS combo. Hell, to get from 130 to zero starting with zero buffs, and only casting SS->SW->LS takes almost 90 seconds at 10500 haste rating (before factoring 4pc T20 or lust, etc)

What that means, though, is that if you start at 130 AP and do the simple moon subsitutions I mentioned above, it's going to take you almost 2 full minutes to work yourself to zero AP.

That's not even counting the surplus AP you can generate with Incarnation (especially with IFE).

So, in turret mode you just don't ever want to bother with the unempowered SW. With movement, if your AP is low you can start planning about 10 seconds before it's needed to cast a few extra Unemp SW. Alternatively if your AP is already pretty high (which it pretty much always will be) you can just pop out your SS since your AP is going to be high anyway and then build the AP back up after movement by working in the extra SW.

Like I said though, it's not clear to me that you're better off going for the break point that always allows you to always get an extra GCD/unemp SW/OI procs/DoT refreshes off. That's because you might be better off stacking mastery instead and just squeezing in the spell you want when your 4pcT20 is stacked high enough to squeeze in the extra spell. SS and the empwoered spells will hit a lot harder and you'll still be able to maintain your buff as you want.

After all, with the 4T20 anyway you're going to have a highly variable amount of haste to use on your casts so even going with lower haste on gear you'll have plenty of times where you have enough haste to squeeze in an extra unemp SW as needed. The optimal build very well might be to not go for the haste break point and normally just cast your empowered spells between Starsurges. You would then try to squeeze in the extra wrath when your haste is stacked high enough from T20 to do so.

Like I said, though, what exactly the optimal balance between haste and mastery is going to be has to be simmed out.

The best rotation is likely going to be one where you smartly vary your casts depending on your haste procs but still never cast unempowered wraths. Getting in moons on top of empowerments (instead of replacing them, as I described above) is going to be the key.

[Tyze]

Shaman
Elemental Discussions - 7.2.5
Hey guys.

So, part of the reason we haven't had much to share about Elemental is that we don't think there's anything fundamentally wrong with the spec. Most of the changes you've seen to other specs in 7.2.5 thus far have been focused around addressing core mechanical issues. We've only recently begun the process of making changes intended to bring each spec's performance more in line with the others.

The bulk of the feedback we're seeing (in this thread and others) is that Elemental is fun to play, it just doesn't deal enough damage in certain situations. That's the sort of situation that we'll solve through what we generally refer to as "tuning" - e.g, adjusting things like how much damage a spell does, the chance for an effect to activate, and so on. Based on the feedback, those sound like the sort of changes we'd consider for Elemental.

Note that how we define a "mechanical change" vs "tuning" can be a bit blurry, which makes it difficult for us to communicate things like this sometimes. Suffice it to say that changes intended to alter the way you play your class are generally considered mechanical, while changes that simply adjust how effective your class is in certain situations are generally considered tuning. That's still not a perfect explanation but hopefully it helps.

Moreover, tuning isn't a process that's ever really "complete." We constantly monitor class performance and make adjustments where we think they'll help, and fully expect to continue that in the weeks after Patch 7.2.5 releases. Additionally, it's important to remember that the effectiveness of your spec is measured comparatively to other specs; in other words, tuning down an overpowered spec is an indirect buff to everyone else. Sometimes - and I'm not saying this is the case for Elemental, because I'm honestly not certain off the top of my head - we'll decide that it's better to bring an outlier down than it is to buff everyone else.

Anyway, the core of what I'm trying to get across here is that Elemental is definitely on our radar as a spec to pay close attention to as we continue class tuning for 7.2.5. We'll be keeping an eye on Elemental's performance as we continue the tuning process.

However do you not think earthshock damage relative to our other spells and substituting earthquake in single target are possible design flaws?
I can't speak to it personally (I just finished leveling my Shaman a couple weeks ago and I mostly stick to Enhance or Resto) but these are the sorts of things we'd generally look to address via tuning. (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)

Wouldn't it be nice if something like this was directed towards Moonkin?

Thats because people on the forum gives feedback and compaints about their spec. Balance Druid are kinda just going with everything. Most of the Balance players keep saying "it will be fine" which it prob will. But it wont give any blue posts.

Start raging over something (looking at the US forum, since you know. Blizzard isnt on the eu) and we can get a blue post about something

[the game]

So I haven't read 342 pages of posts. Why did they get rid of the eclipse system from Druids? Are they really that focused on dumbing the game down? I've tried playing all of my alts and none of them are any different from the other. Even my warlock is getting watered down slowly.

[huth]

So I haven't read 342 pages of posts. Why did they get rid of the eclipse system from Druids? Are they really that focused on dumbing the game down? I've tried playing all of my alts and none of them are any different from the other. Even my warlock is getting watered down slowly.

Read the 342 pages and you'll find your answers. Short version: Change = dumbing down doesn't hold up.

[Deleted]

So I haven't read 342 pages of posts. Why did they get rid of the eclipse system from Druids? Are they really that focused on dumbing the game down? I've tried playing all of my alts and none of them are any different from the other. Even my warlock is getting watered down slowly.

wasn't like the eclipse system post mop were anything to think about the, last incarnation of it in wod was one of the most meaningless class mechanics i have played with.

[Polarthief]

So I haven't read 342 pages of posts. Why did they get rid of the eclipse system from Druids? Are they really that focused on dumbing the game down? I've tried playing all of my alts and none of them are any different from the other. Even my warlock is getting watered down slowly.

wasn't like the eclipse system post mop were anything to think about the, last incarnation of it in wod was one of the most meaningless class mechanics i have played with.

Now I didn't main Boomkin since BC and Legion (was multiple classes in BC until finally Mage til literally this expansion), so I'm not 100% well versed in the older Boomkin ways, but MoP Eclipse was a pretty alright system while the WoD one smashed that with a sledgehammer and it was almost universally disliked to the point where you didn't see Boomkins at all, mostly because instead of your spells affecting Eclipse, it just sorta went on its own. This is what made Blizzard completely change up the system into what we now know as Astral Power.

I did try the MoP system a bit and TBH I didn't really like it as much as I like today's system, but I do wish they would change up Starfall a bit. Having both your ST and AoE spenders compete with each other (especially when base Starfall costs 20 more AsP and doesn't feel that great in comparison) just feels a bit awkward considering how long it takes us to get the bar up from 0 while it feels like other classes just effortlessly go from 0 to max in a few seconds.

[Deleted]

Thats because people on the forum gives feedback and compaints about their spec. Balance Druid are kinda just going with everything. Most of the Balance players keep saying "it will be fine" which it prob will. But it wont give any blue posts.

Start raging over something (looking at the US forum, since you know. Blizzard isnt on the eu) and we can get a blue post about something

there is a thread like that and has been ignored for months. There is a lot of data and feedback, sometimes a guy coming in ignoring all evidence and yelling "we are fine, git gud, l2P" and flying away.

Edit: I see a big problem in class/spec distribution around the globe..,if most ele shamans who really care and are constructive can post on US forums then they get buffed (or nerfed, lol). If majority of balance druids play outside of US then we are screwed, because we all know devs ignore other regions.

There is a funny blue response to shaman thread, a guy is (almost) literally asking one theorycrafter (who proved their earthquake change is nonsensical garbage and provides mathemathical evidence) how should they buff ele shaman. Like, seriously?

[elynos]

Are you using SF instead of SS on single target? Because that's the only situation where SotF may be relatively close to incarnation. And even then - SS rotation+IFE/OI/ED still deals a lot more dmg than SF rotation + SotA. In other words - we will never use SotA on pure ST fights.

I can't post links but my char is elynos on sargeras in warcraft logs if you care to look. On every semi or pure st fight I either did better or close to the same dmg with sotf as compared to incarnation.

[branbib]

I can't post links but my char is elynos on sargeras in warcraft logs if you care to look. On every semi or pure st fight I either did better or close to the same dmg with sotf as compared to incarnation.

So i've looked through your logs and judging by Krosus and Trilliax parses (closest to pure ST fights), i can see that only on Trilliax you used SF build. Even then -your percentiles are extremely mediocre. And DPS increase you experienced, is definitely from the fact - that SF rotation is a lot less challenging and harder to screw up than SS rotation. But that comes just from a lack of experience. When you'll learn timings of the fights and begin to stutter step during your Starsurge gcds - you'll see a large increase in your dps (using proper single target build).