Guardian 7.2.5 changes and BiS leggos

[CptBlasto]

So I had the privilege this past reset of co-tanking a H NH speedrun with a top 100 US guild and I took the opportunity to ask their MT (also drood) about his/her opinions on the 7.2.5 changes. Obviously nobody is stoked about it, who would be... but overall balance-wise their opinion was Barkskin needs to be on a shorter (30s) CD to compensate for the massive hit to our magic mitigation. This was according to their guild's experience on the PTR, obviously nothing being final, where there appears to be a pretty fair amount of magic dmg in ToS. So as of the changes we know of, it might be pretty rough (Mythic especially)

As far as "BiS" leggo setup, the Elize/Luffa meta may not hold. Their opinion was Mangle ring + relics overtaking Thrash relics + luffas, along with Boots becoming BiS. Obviously others have their situational uses and strengths but I see where this person was coming from. Mangle ring giving 25% damage + 7/7 Vicious Bites giving 49% damage = massive mangles and more frequent uses than thrash with gore procs, albeit for single target use instead of cleave (Incarn aside). However, with 3x Thrash relics dropping in ToS vs none for Mangle, these will be harder to come by

Boots are pretty self explanitory with FR becoming so important with T20 bonuses and the chunks we will be taking from unmitigated magic damage

Obviously player preference, raid comp, and encounter will affect this but I thought it would be interesting to discuss with 7.2.5 likely next week along with Tomb the following week.

Cheers

[Emancptr]

So I had the privilege this past reset of co-tanking a H NH speedrun with a top 100 US guild and I took the opportunity to ask their MT (also drood) about his/her opinions on the 7.2.5 changes.

US 100 raiders are mostly shit.

Obviously nobody is stoked about it, who would be... but overall balance-wise their opinion was Barkskin needs to be on a shorter (30s) CD to compensate for the massive hit to our magic mitigation.

This would be broken. This will not happen.

This was according to their guild's experience on the PTR, obviously nothing being final, where there appears to be a pretty fair amount of magic dmg in ToS. So as of the changes we know of, it might be pretty rough (Mythic especially)

There is not that much magic damage in ToS. Especially when compared with Nighthold it's much lower.

As far as "BiS" leggo setup, the Elize/Luffa meta may not hold.

Luffa/Elize isn't BiS, and hasn't been for a long time. It's a good combination of damage and mitigation and most people are too lazy to switch legendaries based on fight to better stuff.

Their opinion was Mangle ring + relics overtaking Thrash relics + luffas, along with Boots becoming BiS.

Ring sucks. Will not be used for almost anything. Boots are strictly worse than Trinket/Eko/Prydaz for defensive purposes. Boots healing is 90% overhealing in raids and completely useless.

Mangle relics will not overtake thrash relics even if you meme and use the ring (which again is bad). Maul relics might be best for damage, but I haven't run the sims to 100% confirm.

Boots are pretty self explanitory with FR becoming so important with T20 bonuses and the chunks we will be taking from unmitigated magic damage

All this does is make Boots do more overhealing. It will not make them good.

Obviously player preference...

Nope, you just talked to an idiot.

[Cannibalus]

@Emancptr I totally agree with your statements even though they are borderline foul language (hard day at work i suppose... ye happens here aswell). What many people don't understand is that it's not about the self-healing that's keeping bears alive it's about stacking damage reduction (chest and legs) OR leggos that give shields (prydaz + trinket).

A bit off-topic, i don't think i will ever go with 4-set, even 2-set is kinda overkill, as if i find myself in situations where IF i'm taking that much damage, it's a problem where more defensive stats are needed and not a freakin bigger frenzied regen. I solo-tanked Star Augur mythic and for the safety of melee i would hold on to the stacks as much as i could only stacking when he was casting nova or going in really fast with a roar AAAAND at some points my frenzied regen tracker showed me 12-14 mil... and i was almost getting 1-shot (did get like 2-3 times :P). More versatility and experience of the fight obviously solved this problem.

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@CptBlasto, i gave the ring a thought aswell and ended up dimissing it by simple math:

- BiS Mangle spec: 25% from Ring Leggo, 49% from 3x relics, has 6 sec base CD.
- BiS Thrash spec: 25% from Wrist Leggo (+ range), 70% from 3x relics, has 6 sec base CD, AND has a 15% chance to proc another Thrash (and yes the proc has a chance to proc aswell, most i've been able to count were 5 procs from 1 Thrash).

I don't know about you but it's pretty clear to me that UNLESS they change something, the above overlycomplicated math for like Stephen Hawking and like 2 other people will likely be case.

[CptBlasto]

US 100 raiders are mostly shit.



This would be broken. This will not happen.



There is not that much magic damage in ToS. Especially when compared with Nighthold it's much lower.



Luffa/Elize isn't BiS, and hasn't been for a long time. It's a good combination of damage and mitigation and most people are too lazy to switch legendaries based on fight to better stuff.



Ring sucks. Will not be used for almost anything. Boots are strictly worse than Trinket/Eko/Prydaz for defensive purposes. Boots healing is 90% overhealing in raids and completely useless.

Mangle relics will not overtake thrash relics even if you meme and use the ring (which again is bad). Maul relics might be best for damage, but I haven't run the sims to 100% confirm.



All this does is make Boots do more overhealing. It will not make them good.



Nope, you just talked to an idiot.

Haha damn dude who shit in your cereal this morning. I'm a casual player raiding up to Mythic content, and I'm quite ok with it. Just throwing out some thoughts for discussion. Appreciate your sentiments but you don't have to be a tool about it

[Kaeth]

I don't know about you but it's pretty clear to me that UNLESS they change something, the above overlycomplicated math for like Stephen Hawking and like 2 other people will likely be case.

It's not too complicated. The average benefit of Pawsitive Outlook, taking into account its ability to proc off of its own procs, can be expressed as a geometric series which converges to 1/(1-0.15) or 1.17647. So Pawsitive Outlook works out to be 17.647% additional Thrash damage over time.

That gives us an optimal Mangle buff of +86.25% vs +150.00% for Thrash ... though, admittedly ... the bleed ticks complicate matters somewhat, once they cap out. Pawsitive Outlook provides no benefit to the DoT once it reaches the stack cap, so it only impacts the direct damage portion after that. Crap, this does get complicated.

[PickleballAce]

Haha damn dude who shit in your cereal this morning. I'm a casual player raiding up to Mythic content, and I'm quite ok with it. Just throwing out some thoughts for discussion. Appreciate your sentiments but you don't have to be a tool about it

Inferiority complex is a bitch. Don't worry about it, many here suffer from that terrible affliction and the forum manages to move along mostly fine.

[Deleted]

Okey what is the BIS leg for ToS :
Elize's Everlasting Encasement
Luffa Wrappings
Ekowraith, Creator of Worlds
Cinidaria, the Symbiote
Archimonde's Hatred Reborn
Sephuz's Secret
Prydaz, Xavriac's Magnum Opus
Skysec's Hold
Dual Determination
Oakheart's Puny Quods
Ring
Fury of Nature(Back)

[Soulwell]

@Emancptr
Cute how you insulted so many people. Also funny how you say pants bracers aren't bis but every guardian parse is pants bracers,including your own(spare some kj cheese that's probably not even worth it). I get you're some m+ hero because you don't see sunlight but you're clearly retarded.
For the amounts of times you've killed each boss and the parses you have are quite laughable. US top 15 guild and you aren't even top 10 NA all stars for guardians. You've got like 8 points on me and I haven't tanked farm kills in months. Calling people in the top 100 shit is a stretch for someone in your position. Wake up nigga you ain't even that good.

Inferiority complex is a bitch. Don't worry about it, many here suffer from that terrible affliction and the forum manages to move along mostly fine.

Nah it's mainly just the perky ones that want to feel relevant.

[Deleted]

Okey what is the BIS leg for ToS :
Elize's Everlasting Encasement
Luffa Wrappings
Ekowraith, Creator of Worlds
Cinidaria, the Symbiote
Archimonde's Hatred Reborn
Sephuz's Secret
Prydaz, Xavriac's Magnum Opus
Skysec's Hold
Dual Determination
Oakheart's Puny Quods
Ring
Fury of Nature(Back)

Putting ring and back below Oakhearts is obviously not correct. Back will probably be third of fourth, ring somewhere around 8th to 10th. Back would need to be played with GG instead of Incarn.

[Emancptr]

@Emancptr
Cute how you insulted so many people. Also funny how you say pants bracers aren't bis but every guardian parse is pants bracers,including your own(spare some kj cheese that's probably not even worth it).

I literally said everyone uses Pants/Bracers because they're too lazy to switch. Combine that with the fact that Pants/Bracers are probably top 2 for cheesing logs (pad on incarn). You have a combination that will look good in logs 6 months into a tier on farm.

Pants/Bracers are only the top parsing log on 4/10 fights (and Pants/Bracers have easily 10x the amount of parses as other legendaries). 6/10 fights the top parse uses another legendary. Just so were all on the same page here, BiS means Best in Slot (for either damage or survivability). Pants/Bracers are not Best in Slot for damage or survivability. They get used because people are lazy and they're a good combination of survivability and damage (literally what I initially said).

I get you're some m+ hero because you don't see sunlight but you're clearly retarded.

Don't know what this has to do with anything, but it's cool to see that you're personally offended by my M+ score. I think this is the first person i've triggered with that, which is pretty funny.

For the amounts of times you've killed each boss and the parses you have are quite laughable. US top 15 guild and you aren't even top 10 NA all stars for guardians. You've got like 8 points on me and I haven't tanked farm kills in months. Calling people in the top 100 shit is a stretch for someone in your position.

Considering I have been Top 2 World All Star for all Tiers (EN, ToV, and NH) i'm not too worried about my skill level. Not to mention being top 2-3 World for Warriors/Monks in BRF/HFC when I played different classes. I was 2nd behind Pumps in Nighthold All Stars before xfering from Stormrage (7.1.5).

It's hilarious when people think that parses 6 months into a tier (where it's all about how much people pad on stupid shit) matter. Sorry I can't be arsed to have my guild completely screw up mechanics so that I can get 30% of my damage on adds every boss. I'll stick with my 98th-99th percentile overall damage and 100th percentile boss damage parses all day.

Also, the juxtaposition of calling me a no-life retard for having a high M+ score. Then two lines later telling me I'm a bad player for not cheesing parses in Mythic Nighthold is

Wake up nigga you ain't even that good.

Good to know that I was being too rude earlier, but this language is perfectly acceptable.

Okey what is the BIS leg for ToS :
Elize's Everlasting Encasement
Luffa Wrappings
Ekowraith, Creator of Worlds
Cinidaria, the Symbiote
Archimonde's Hatred Reborn
Sephuz's Secret
Prydaz, Xavriac's Magnum Opus
Skysec's Hold
Dual Determination
Oakheart's Puny Quods
Ring
Fury of Nature(Back)

Defensively:

Ekowraith, Creator of Worlds
Archimonde's Hatred Reborn
Prydaz, Xavriac's Magnum Opus
Fury of Nature(Back)
Skysec's Hold
Elize's Everlasting Encasement
Dual Determination (If charge matters)
New Ring
Oakheart's Puny Quods
Cindaria, the Symbiote
Luffa Wrappings
Sephuz's Secret (if procable, might go higher)

Offensively ST (Note: 3-5 on this list are all very close and essentially interchangeable):

Luffa Wrappings
Archimonde's Hatred Reborn
Elize's Everlasting Encasement
Fury of Nature(Back)
Lady and the Child (Balance Shoulders)
Cindaria, the Symbiote
New Ring
Oakheart's Puny Quods
Ekowraith, Creator of Worlds
Skysec's Hold
Prydaz, Xavriac's Magnum Opus
Dual Determination
Sephuz's Secret (if procable, becomes top 1-2 for damage)

[Deleted]

Defensively:

Ekowraith, Creator of Worlds
Archimonde's Hatred Reborn
Prydaz, Xavriac's Magnum Opus
Fury of Nature(Back)
Elize's Everlasting Encasement
Dual Determination (If charge matters)
New Ring
Skysec's Hold
Oakheart's Puny Quods
Cindaria, the Symbiote
Luffa Wrappings
Sephuz's Secret (if procable, might go higher)

I agree with your offensive rankings, other than that I would probably add a caveat to the trinkets, that you have to be able to consume the shield completely on CD, which might be tough on some tank swap fights. Defensively I would rate Skysec's higher with the new set and I think it is hard to compare trinket with back, since the latter helps with sustained damage, while Skysecs and trinket help with spike damage and have diminished value when damage is constant.

[Emancptr]

I agree with your offensive rankings, other than that I would probably add a caveat to the trinkets, that you have to be able to consume the shield completely on CD, which might be tough on some tank swap fights. Defensively I would rate Skysec's higher with the new set and I think it is hard to compare trinket with back, since the latter helps with sustained damage, while Skysecs and trinket help with spike damage and have diminished value when damage is constant.

Yeah, re-looking at the Defensive List. Skysec is probably close to Elize (maybe slightly better) for defensive purposes in ToS.

[Captain Midnight]

It's not too complicated. The average benefit of Pawsitive Outlook, taking into account its ability to proc off of its own procs, can be expressed as a geometric series which converges to 1/(1-0.15) or 1.17647. So Pawsitive Outlook works out to be 17.647% additional Thrash damage over time.

That gives us an optimal Mangle buff of +86.25% vs +150.00% for Thrash ... though, admittedly ... the bleed ticks complicate matters somewhat, once they cap out. Pawsitive Outlook provides no benefit to the DoT once it reaches the stack cap, so it only impacts the direct damage portion after that. Crap, this does get complicated.

Thrash has the bleed but Soul of the Forest also increases the number of Mauls per minute. Has anyone run the numbers with Maul hitting as hard as it will be?