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  1. #1
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    Illidan's ultimate "sacrifice"

    Atm The Burning Legion under the leadership of Sargy and his eredar /demonic lieutenants behaves much like the Scourge under the leadership of Arthas.
    If u take Sargeras out of the equation then u simply unleash hell in a much more chaotic way.
    In the end of the LK expansion Bolvar took the place of Arthas because "the always has to be one lich king".
    Do you think that eventually Ilidan in a some kind of supersayan state will have to take sargy's (or kjs) spot as a leader of the burning legion to try and control the demons and keep them otherwise preoccupied ?

  2. #2
    if they rehash that same storyline it would be horrible.


    on the flip side, if we are going to fight the darkness of the void - having bolvar and Illidan call forth their armies to help would be kind of crazy and good for a movie.

  3. #3
    Legendary! Dellis0991's Avatar
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    That would be shitty

  4. #4
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    Well anyways illidan cannot remain on azeroth. and tbf we are no much to sargy at the moment. to an avatar maybe but anyways the point remains that with archi, kj and his most powerfull lieutenants out noowill be able to control the demonic armies that will appear anywhere causing chaos.
    Bet we will have to strike a deal with sargeras and illidan will offer to lead the burning legion in some way (as a lieutenant with his own will or as an avatar) turning legions forces away from azeroth.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Stroggylos View Post
    Atm The Burning Legion under the leadership of Sargy and his eredar /demonic lieutenants behaves much like the Scourge under the leadership of Arthas.
    If u take Sargeras out of the equation then u simply unleash hell in a much more chaotic way.
    Chronicle already established that the Legion's nature isn't similar to the Scourge. Without a Lich King, the Scourge - which are already on Azeroth - would have been unleashed as a massive mindless wave of UD towards all the livings. That happens because all of the Scourge's undeath carry the common trait of hating the living. They might be chaotic, but they are of the same mind (or lack thereof) and unrelenting. They won't fight among themselves, they won't retreat, they'd just attack us until the last man (UD actually) standing.

    On the other hand, the Burning Legion or demons in general don't work that way. Without a leader, they revert back to the nature of demons. While they will still attack civilization here and there, they'd also fight between themselves as well. They are, as described by Chronicle, "unruly", "disorganized and incompetent". Even with Sargeras around, Illidan still deemed that just putting KJ / Archimonde down could be enough to put an end to the Legion, as "Sargeras needs commanders to control his soldiers. Without them, the eredar will fall to fighting among one another, and piecemeal may be destroyed" (quoting the book). Without even Sargeras? They wouldn't be as much of a threat to Azeroth as the Scourge. Not to mention they aren't even in the Great Dark Beyond, they still need to find their way back in - without a leader, we'd just get some groups of demons popping in here and there - relatively harmless compared to an organized army. At worst, those demons would attack and destroy some random undefended worlds around the universe, but as long as they don't touch Azeroth, we probably wouldn't care.

    Lastly, given that there are demons in enemy's rank when Illidan fights against the force of the Void in Xe'ra's vision (assuming it's true), the force of the Void will probably just take over the remnant of the Legion anyway.
    Last edited by Qualia; 2017-06-06 at 04:55 PM.
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  6. #6
    Without a Lich King, the Scourge - which are already on Azeroth - would have been unleashed as a massive mindless wave of UD towards all the livings.
    Never understood this. What Scourge? Didn't we kill most of them to get to Arthas?

    Like what was Arthas keeping 90% of his army hidden somewhere? I was pretty sure we destroyed the Scourge/Vrykul in Northrend on our way to Ulduar/ICC.


    How would the Scourge get out of Northrend without intelligence building them ships/boats/flying Necropoli?

  7. #7
    Yeah, it doesn't make much sense to me either. They would just be mindlessly attacking the nearest living thing with no coordination whatsoever. They wouldn't know the important targets, or proper battle tactics. Not only that, but I'm pretty sure there would be conflict between necromancers to see who gets to rule and control the undead in the absence of a Lich King.

  8. #8
    "There must always be a LK" was the single worst lorechange Blizz ever made. It get's challenged by "Demons exist in all timelines/realities" for that title, but it's still the worst.

    Safe to say, rehashing their worst idea to this date, would not be a very smart thing to do.
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  9. #9
    I bet in the end of Argus, Illidan will sacrifice himself to kill or grievously wound Sargeras. It'll take the Legion out of question and allow the Old Gods / Void Lords to become the new baddies. It won't kill the Legion so they can remain a viable antagonist. And that's why they did the whole "There must always be a LK" retcon, it keeps the Scourge as a viable antagonist in the future, all they gotta do is say "Hey, Bolvar has gone too far!!!".

    While i liked the Burning Crusade and Void Lords for a while i'm getting tired of it. I really wish we had a bigger and better world instead of Green Spaceships and Demons or Transluscent Black Baddies. WoW is really reaching DBZ power levels soon if they don't change things.
    English is not my first language, feel free to point out any mistake so i can keep learning.

  10. #10
    Pit Lord Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pateuvasiliu View Post
    Never understood this. What Scourge? Didn't we kill most of them to get to Arthas?

    Like what was Arthas keeping 90% of his army hidden somewhere? I was pretty sure we destroyed the Scourge/Vrykul in Northrend on our way to Ulduar/ICC.


    How would the Scourge get out of Northrend without intelligence building them ships/boats/flying Necropoli?
    No. The Scourge was able to self-propagate, and would have eventually overwhelmed the mortal races, especially considering that the dead which are "killed" can rise again if a necromancer so chooses.

    We killed a LOT of Scourge in Icecrown, but it's rather irrelevant to an army that can self-propagate and re-create its dead. The Lich King kept the Scourge at bay to fulfill Arthas' sadistic wish of forcing the heroes of Azeroth to do what he did: return to their kingdoms as champions, then betray their leaders.

    There are small numbers of Scourge dispersed across the continents which would eventually overwhelm the nearby armies if allowed to flourish, but the remaining Liches, intelligent undead, and necromancers would retain their sanity and would likely be less likely to have the same restraint as Arthas.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ThrashMetalFtw View Post
    "There must always be a LK" was the single worst lorechange Blizz ever made. It get's challenged by "Demons exist in all timelines/realities" for that title, but it's still the worst.

    Safe to say, rehashing their worst idea to this date, would not be a very smart thing to do.
    Neither is bad in and of itself.
    The former is something they did to attempt to tie-up loose ends with the Scourge remaining, and why they would not simply mindlessly ambush the crusaders leaving Icecrown Citadel, why the small Scourge populations in remote regions would not become berserk and begin multiplying out of control, as well as set up potential for further expansion on the Lich King concept.
    The latter is pretty much standard for demons in every major fantasy world; demons can be slain, but return to the nether/abyss/warp/etc. to reform, and cannot return to the mortal plane for a certain amount of time. Systems like D&D expand on this more, where powerful beings like demons and gods transcend dimensions and can influence the goings-on in each, with varying amounts of power when doing so.
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    No. The Scourge was able to self-propagate, and would have eventually overwhelmed the mortal races, especially considering that the dead which are "killed" can rise again if a necromancer so chooses.

    We killed a LOT of Scourge in Icecrown, but it's rather irrelevant to an army that can self-propagate and re-create its dead. The Lich King kept the Scourge at bay to fulfill Arthas' sadistic wish of forcing the heroes of Azeroth to do what he did: return to their kingdoms as champions, then betray their leaders.

    There are small numbers of Scourge dispersed across the continents which would eventually overwhelm the nearby armies if allowed to flourish, but the remaining Liches, intelligent undead, and necromancers would retain their sanity and would likely be less likely to have the same restraint as Arthas.
    I thought you can't re-raise the dead. The Val'kyr die when they re-resurrect Sylvanas?

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by pateuvasiliu View Post
    Never understood this. What Scourge? Didn't we kill most of them to get to Arthas?

    Like what was Arthas keeping 90% of his army hidden somewhere? I was pretty sure we destroyed the Scourge/Vrykul in Northrend on our way to Ulduar/ICC.


    How would the Scourge get out of Northrend without intelligence building them ships/boats/flying Necropoli?
    The only way I could wrap my head around this one after many years, is that fighting a bunch of splintered groups that are continually disruptive and just out to murder you all the time is a lot more difficult to deal with than one army with one mind under one person. I dunno, its still pretty damn rubbish. I think some game of thrones quote helped me understand it. Can't remember though.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by pateuvasiliu View Post
    I thought you can't re-raise the dead. The Val'kyr die when they re-resurrect Sylvanas?
    The Val'kyr aren't undead like the scourge. They are spirits. The scourge is mostly spiritless, mindless corpses that have been animated. They can be reanimated if they die.
    If what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger. Then I should be a god by now.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Pandragon View Post
    The Val'kyr aren't undead like the scourge. They are spirits. The scourge is mostly spiritless, mindless corpses that have been animated. They can be reanimated if they die.
    And once they are too damaged their parts can be used for abominations.

  15. #15
    Neither is bad in and of itself.
    The former is something they did to attempt to tie-up loose ends with the Scourge remaining, and why they would not simply mindlessly ambush the crusaders leaving Icecrown Citadel, why the small Scourge populations in remote regions would not become berserk and begin multiplying out of control, as well as set up potential for further expansion on the Lich King concept.
    The latter is pretty much standard for demons in every major fantasy world; demons can be slain, but return to the nether/abyss/warp/etc. to reform, and cannot return to the mortal plane for a certain amount of time. Systems like D&D expand on this more, where powerful beings like demons and gods transcend dimensions and can influence the goings-on in each, with varying amounts of power when doing so.
    About the Scourge going rampage. No, this already happened once in WC3, when Illidan was attacking the Frozen Throne using a spell cast with the Eye of Sargeras. The LK started losing power, and thus lost control of big parts of the Scourge. These Undead, former Scourge, didn't go on a wild mindless rampage, they regained their free will, becoming the Forsaken. The same should have happened to the rest of the remaining Scourge when Arthas died at the end of WotLK.

    As for the Demons, that's not what I was referring to. We have known for a long time that their souls return to the Nether when killed, and slowly reform there, until they can take physical form again. What was new in WoD, was the retcon of there being no alternate reality demons. No alternate Archimonde or Kil'Jaeden. The Archimonde that died at end of WC3:RoC, was the same Archimonde that died at the Black Gate in HFC at the end of WoD. There are only 1 of each individual demon, and they can apparently travel freely between alternate realities. While "There must always be a LK" is my personal worst, this one had the by faaaaar biggest backlash from the community, of any lorechange, ever. I mean, it was only about 2 years ago, you can't have missed it.

    The only way I could wrap my head around this one after many years, is that fighting a bunch of splintered groups that are continually disruptive and just out to murder you all the time is a lot more difficult to deal with than one army with one mind under one person. I dunno, its still pretty damn rubbish. I think some game of thrones quote helped me understand it. Can't remember though.
    No, just no. The Scourge was a hivemind, just like the Zerg in Starcraft. The whole point of these two factions is that they are so strong because they are controlled by an individual. For strategic and tactical purposes in a war, being a hivemind is simply "the best". Splintered groups of units would never ever come close to the efficiency of a large army controlled by a single person.

    Think of it this way, let's use raiding as an example. What's the hardest part about raiding? Assuming you have a functional strategy and sufficient gear, the main problem is just waiting for that try when nobody makes a mistake. Now image if a single person had the mental and physical capacity to play 20 chars at the same time. Take any random guy from a top 50 guild, and he would get worldfirst, totally demolishing any of the top guild resistance. A real guild has to wait for 20 persons to play perfectly at the same time. He (the hivemind) only has to wait for 1 try where just 1 person plays perfectly.

    There's a reason why hiveminds are always incredibly OP and dangerous in fantasy and scifi. It's basically godmode for waging any kind of war.
    Last edited by ThrashMetalFtw; 2017-06-09 at 11:38 AM.
    They're (short for They are) describes a group of people. "They're/They are a nice bunch of guys." Their indicates that something belongs/is related to a group of people. "Their car was all out of fuel." There refers to a location. "Let's set up camp over there." There is also no such thing as "could/should OF". The correct way is: Could/should'VE, or could/should HAVE.
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by pateuvasiliu View Post
    Never understood this. What Scourge? Didn't we kill most of them to get to Arthas?

    Like what was Arthas keeping 90% of his army hidden somewhere? I was pretty sure we destroyed the Scourge/Vrykul in Northrend on our way to Ulduar/ICC.

    How would the Scourge get out of Northrend without intelligence building them ships/boats/flying Necropoli?
    It's even less about the numbers and more about what @ThrashMetalFtw just said. Lich King gets blasted with a spell from half across the world? Half of the Scourge forces in Lordaeron break free. Lich King gets sliced with a magical sword? Acherus breaks free. Lich King drops dead? Now they go on a mindless rampage. Because consistency.

    And about the "but they can be resurrected ad nausem. By what? The higher Scourge that was particularly wiped out as high priority targets? And who can't re-resurrect the rest of the Scourge with the same speed and capacity as the Lich King? Or the remnant of the Cult of the Damned that was steamrolled in Cata without any significant effort?
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThrashMetalFtw View Post
    About the Scourge going rampage. No, this already happened once in WC3, when Illidan was attacking the Frozen Throne using a spell cast with the Eye of Sargeras. The LK started losing power, and thus lost control of big parts of the Scourge. These Undead, former Scourge, didn't go on a wild mindless rampage, they regained their free will, becoming the Forsaken. The same should have happened to the rest of the remaining Scourge when Arthas died at the end of WotLK.

    As for the Demons, that's not what I was referring to. We have known for a long time that their souls return to the Nether when killed, and slowly reform there, until they can take physical form again. What was new in WoD, was the retcon of there being no alternate reality demons. No alternate Archimonde or Kil'Jaeden. The Archimonde that died at end of WC3:RoC, was the same Archimonde that died at the Black Gate in HFC at the end of WoD. There are only 1 of each individual demon, and they can apparently travel freely between alternate realities. While "There must always be a LK" is my personal worst, this one had the by faaaaar biggest backlash from the community, of any lorechange, ever. I mean, it was only about 2 years ago, you can't have missed it.



    No, just no. The Scourge was a hivemind, just like the Zerg in Starcraft. The whole point of these two factions is that they are so strong because they are controlled by an individual. For strategic and tactical purposes in a war, being a hivemind is simply "the best". Splintered groups of units would never ever come close to the efficiency of a large army controlled by a single person.

    Think of it this way, let's use raiding as an example. What's the hardest part about raiding? Assuming you have a functional strategy and sufficient gear, the main problem is just waiting for that try when nobody makes a mistake. Now image if a single person had the mental and physical capacity to play 20 chars at the same time. Take any random guy from a top 50 guild, and he would get worldfirst, totally demolishing any of the top guild resistance. A real guild has to wait for 20 persons to play perfectly at the same time. He (the hivemind) only has to wait for 1 try where just 1 person plays perfectly.

    There's a reason why hiveminds are always incredibly OP and dangerous in fantasy and scifi. It's basically godmode for waging any kind of war.
    Well, i usually think that, while our "dimension" can have parallels, the Twisting Nether maybe not. That's why the demons or Burning Legion are one and only. Let's say that their "plain" is one dimensional.

    In short: our "plane" can have multiple and parallel dimension, the Twisting Nether no.

    P.S: this is my explanation, don't know if there is official statement on this.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    Neither is bad in and of itself.
    The former is something they did to attempt to tie-up loose ends with the Scourge remaining, and why they would not simply mindlessly ambush the crusaders leaving Icecrown Citadel, why the small Scourge populations in remote regions would not become berserk and begin multiplying out of control, as well as set up potential for further expansion on the Lich King concept.
    The latter is pretty much standard for demons in every major fantasy world; demons can be slain, but return to the nether/abyss/warp/etc. to reform, and cannot return to the mortal plane for a certain amount of time. Systems like D&D expand on this more, where powerful beings like demons and gods transcend dimensions and can influence the goings-on in each, with varying amounts of power when doing so.
    That post quite clearly mentioned Blizzard. Not an "in and of itself" situation. The former is an inconsistent mess when compared to previous cases of what happened when Lich King was merely wounded. And somehow him dropping dead has vastly different consequences. Even though said dropping dead was preceded by quite a lot of wounding.

    And without the Lich King the Scourge lacked capacity to multiply anything out of control. The main force of the Scourge left capable of mass resurrection on any meaningful scale were the Val'kyr and they were not mindless by any means and hardly in the genocide business for the lulz.

    The latter is a clusterfuck with how Blizzard went at it. Yes, many settings have demons unable to be killed outside of their home realm. That wasn't what was even addressed in that post. And yes, some do demons transcending dimensions as well. Though hardly on "demons transcend the multiverse" level. Especially if they want the demons to have any kind of crusade like the Legion has. Because the idea of a few million demons successfully taking on an infinite amount of universes at once is unfeasible as fuck.

    But that's not even the main problem. The thing is, usually the settings that have demons transcend the multiverse are written by people who have enough brainpower to make the demons originate solely from their realm. Since Blizzard's writing is done by people with the combined brainpower of a moldy sponge, in their setting anything exposed to enough Fel becomes a demon as well. So we have an infinite amount of Archimondes becoming the same demon.

    But wait, there's more! Their take on the multiverse is a "don't count the blades of grass" one. And yet, in the infinite amount of universes and an infinite amount of Arguses approached by Sargeras, not a single one resulted in Velen blade of grassing his way into accepting the gift of Fel and becoming a demon lord. An infinite amount of Azeroths (and some did have a World Soul because some of the ones we've seen did have the Well of Eternity) and not once did Archimonde win the Third War, drain the World Tree and become a god (even though there have been Azeroths that were indeed conquered by the Legion).

    Hell, it transcends the demons and affects the Void as well. An infinite amount of universes, with Azeroth's case confirming that the same world can be a nascent Titan in more than one universe. And yet not a single universe resulted in a born Void Titan. Including the one that caused Sargeras to start the Burning Crusade. Not once was it not destroyed just in the nick of time.

    And there's still more! Remember the tangent about how many settings have a system where a demon can only die in their home realm you brought up for no reason? Because the above problem shits all over this take on demons. Your demon Kil'Jaeden dies in the Nether? Welp, it's good we kept some uncorrupted Kil'Jaedens as a contingency for that. Whoopty doo, demon Kil'jaeden is now recreated.
    Last edited by Mehrunes; 2017-06-09 at 01:24 PM.
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  19. #19
    Warcraft's parallel multiverse isn't available to everyone anytime they make the choice, which is why people should stop concerning themselves with it, making it a choking point in Warcraft's storytelling. Remember, Garrosh travelling to an alternate universe required an artifact to be used by a dragon whose flight was bestowed with the knowledge to manipulate and guard time by a titan. This is no small thing. Cases of such time travelling will be rare in the future because there is only so many characters capable of pulling it off.
    Last edited by Magnagarde; 2017-06-09 at 01:18 PM.

  20. #20
    Well, i usually think that, while our "dimension" can have parallels, the Twisting Nether maybe not. That's why the demons or Burning Legion are one and only. Let's say that their "plain" is one dimensional.

    In short: our "plane" can have multiple and parallel dimension, the Twisting Nether no.

    P.S: this is my explanation, don't know if there is official statement on this.
    I do understand it, that's not the problem. I simply think it's extremely stupid/bad writing by Blizzard.
    They're (short for They are) describes a group of people. "They're/They are a nice bunch of guys." Their indicates that something belongs/is related to a group of people. "Their car was all out of fuel." There refers to a location. "Let's set up camp over there." There is also no such thing as "could/should OF". The correct way is: Could/should'VE, or could/should HAVE.
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