Honest Opinions on Which Spec for ToS

[Kuni Zyrekai]

Do you guys think that maybe Fire still has hope?

I mean it's in a blue post on the front page, albeit for Elemental but representative of a more general process.

'Most of the changes you've seen to other specs in 7.2.5 thus far have been focused around addressing core mechanical issues. We've only recently begun the process of making changes intended to bring each spec's performance more in line with the others.'

Perhaps we shouldn't write fire off quite yet, it is by far our weakest spec and if anything is likely to get tuning attention it should be it.

We'll probably see the usual balance patch a week after Mythic opens.

[MV Kaa]

We'll probably see the usual balance patch a week after Mythic opens.

No, the balance patch comes out the week mythic opens. They wont do a balancing patch mid race

[Tyze]

Its gonna be Arcane. It makes sense.

Highmaul = Frost
BRF = Fire
HFC = Arcane

EM = Fire
NH = Frost
TOS = Arcane!


It goes in a cycle

[Zephre]

It'll be frost.

https://imgur.com/X17DRU2 - Anyone seen this yet?

[Deleted]

It'll be frost.

https://imgur.com/X17DRU2 - Anyone seen this yet?

You sir made my day. I haven't had so much laugh in a while. I roflcoptered the most in the end when i saw the affliction locks

[Deleted]

Do you guys think that maybe Fire still has hope?

I mean it's in a blue post on the front page, albeit for Elemental but representative of a more general process.

'Most of the changes you've seen to other specs in 7.2.5 thus far have been focused around addressing core mechanical issues. We've only recently begun the process of making changes intended to bring each spec's performance more in line with the others.'

Perhaps we shouldn't write fire off quite yet, it is by far our weakest spec and if anything is likely to get tuning attention it should be it.

I am expecting nerfs to Arcane and Fire because it is blizzard. Arcane already received few more or less intentional nerfs:
- t20 p4, dmg reduced from 15 to 6s
- Time and Space no longer triggers AM

[davesignal]

I mean Arcane's been essentially operating without a real 4P for the entirety of Nighthold, even at 6 seconds the T20 4P is still going to be leaps and bounds ahead.

[Deleted]

I mean Arcane's been essentially operating without a real 4P for the entirety of Nighthold, even at 6 seconds the T20 4P is still going to be leaps and bounds ahead.

Wrong. T19 p4 was amazing. With it conserve phase was.very short / u could almost skip it. Where t20 p4 is just... weak. I am sure they nerfed t20 p2, so Arcane mages don't use T19 p2 with t20 p2 (which still sims better than full t20).

[trm90]

Wrong. T19 p4 was amazing. With it conserve phase was.very short / u could almost skip it. Where t20 p4 is just... weak. I am sure they nerfed t20 p2, so Arcane mages don't use T19 p2 with t20 p2 (which still sims better than full t20).

I felt the opposite and I say this as a frequent Spiral user. Extra Evocations are great for min/maxing but the bonus is really binary. It was a set bonus which was really strong when you could grab the extra Evo in time, but totally useless if the fight length wasn't really in your favour.

The T20 bonuses add some flexibility to our kit with more frequent burst windows every 30 seconds, and more mobility with more instant casts. As a bare minimum, it lets us use PoMs between APs instead of always having to use it for each AP. I really look forward to using it over t19 bonuses, despite the fact Blizzard over-nerfed its duration.

[Deleted]

I felt the opposite and I say this as a frequent Spiral user. Extra Evocations are great for min/maxing but the bonus is really binary. It was a set bonus which was really strong when you could grab the extra Evo in time, but totally useless if the fight length wasn't really in your favour.

The T20 bonuses add some flexibility to our kit with more frequent burst windows every 30 seconds, and more mobility with more instant casts. As a bare minimum, it lets us use PoMs between APs instead of always having to use it for each AP. I really look forward to using it over t19 bonuses, despite the fact Blizzard over-nerfed its duration.

PoM cd with t20 tier is around 40s. You can't really line it with anything, and 6s buff is laughable. You can cast those 2 instant AB and 1 AM before it expires. They should leave it on 15s.

[Uglyduck]

So, I got another legendary last night. Just when I thought I was going to get a main spec legendary... I got... SEPHUZ!!!!! Blizzard hates me.

[D3athsting]

So, I got another legendary last night. Just when I thought I was going to get a main spec legendary... I got... SEPHUZ!!!!! Blizzard hates me.

Still missing sephuz, gloves and exodar as fire, sephuz shoulders and exodar as frost, i don't dare getting relinquished rings

[Deleted]

sephuz is actually a great legendary, many ppl forget that its actually bis if you get the buff once pr minute and even if you dont get any procs, its still a great stat stick and is actually going to be one of our best leggos in 7.2.5, sitting at 1st/4th spot depending on how reliably you can get the proc, so its not a bad leggo.

[Uglyduck]

Yeah it's definitely not horrible, there's a few others that I would've been more sad about. I'm just upset, because the bracers would be a SIGNIFICANT increase in DPS output and my guild is looking for a mage for ToS for mythic progression. I helped found the guild, so I'm sure it won't be an issue, I just want to carry my weight. They're currently 9/10 in M NH, Gul'dan dies tonight!

[gallamann]

the problem is that fire's legendaries provide a fairly big chunk of dps, so if fire is going to be a halfway decent spec for those ppl that havent been lucky enough to get the bis legendaries, then the value of those legendaries need to drop, id love for fire's dps to be closer to frost but if it is, then taking legendaries into account, fire would be the most OP spec in the game, there is a reason why frost is the least legendary dependent spec we have and thats bcoz frost does so much dps without them and frost's legendaries overall provide a significantly smaller chunk of its dps compared to fire, take the frost bracers which is our 2nd best legendary afaik and at best its a 5% st dps increase, the fire belt/bracers provide quite a bit more than that.

I would have no problem with that statement if the fire bracers weren't such an RNG piece of shit, some pulls you get average proc rate, others you get literally 1-2 procs across a fight, and once in a great while the stars align. Then couple that 4 sec cast time with a fucking mechanic shitting of your location...

In short it's too much RNG, remember outside of combust we need two crits in a row to generate a HS, so we are at mercy of crit (RNG) to begin with. Even Blizzard knows this, just look at T19 2pc, that shit should be baked into Fire.

Personally I have been enjoying belt/helm combo (with Alex. Fury talent) much more. No RNG horseshit in those legendary's.

Edit - mistakes corrected

[mage21]

Its gonna be Arcane. It makes sense.

Highmaul = Frost
BRF = Fire
HFC = Arcane

EM = Fire
NH = Frost
TOS = Arcane!


It goes in a cycle

Frost was only good in Highmaul very early on. Within a couple weeks it was arcane all the way, and even then fire was better for select fights like Tectus and Twin Ogron.

BRF was the same deal, arcane dominance with a few fights suited for fire (Darmac, Furnace, etc.)

[dwarfeckiy]

BRF was quite the opposite, unless you are shit and unable to do any Combustion miracles. Any 2+ target fight was Fire only. Arcane could only bite ignited dust.

[twistedmynd]

I take 2 approaches to this problem. When looking at comparing anything like the 2 specs, trinkets, talents, I first run it through simcraft and update my spreadsheets.

Then I wack a dummy for 4, 5, and 6 minutes, about 5-10 attempts and compare the logs.

==

What I've found on live and ptr is that I'm stressing about the disparities (be it from warcraft logs data, raid testing, whatever), but when I apply to my gear and myself it's all relatively close. Assume I know how to optimize all 3 specs and rotations.

That said, what I'm noticing about all 3 specs testing with stat stick trinkets (to reduce variance) is that all 3 are performing really close together. I.E. less than 5% difference on single target patchwerk. I believe this is the new scaling and balancing internal system working as intended.

The problem on live is that frost just did something unintended- it's being reigned in. But if you stick to a spec and have the same relics and good single target legendaries, you'll be really "balanced".

==

Here's some educated guesswork for tomb:

• I believe that arcane will have a lot of variance from fight length time as their damage swings the most from cds.
• GS Frost will continue to be the indisputable champion for 2 target cleave.
• If there are any uncapped aoe moments, Living Bomb Fire will knock everyone's pant's off.
• Anything that requires mobile aoe, burst aoe, or spread aoe might see arcane overtaking the other specs.
• It doesn't look like any mage spec will struggle with movement next raid.

==

What all this means for me:

Now on live, I don't have the time warp ring. I'm 3 gear drops away from having everything from the arcane loot table. My first 2 fire drops were the BiS wrists and belt. I have no frost legendaries. My frost is set up for pvp and loosely what we push rating on. All 3 weps are 919 and have concordance (will be able to put my 2nd concordance in later tonight).

I will be hunting for pyro relics for fire and maining ap into fire for single target and cleave fights. I will try to obtain the remaining legendaries with my arcane spec on and try to collect arcane explosion relics. And then I'll default to fire and simply turn on arcane for M+ / for the 1 or 2 aoe fights in tomb. There's going to be more crit available on gear and the tier bonuses for fire look like they could be really good. I don't think any of our specs will make the synergy with the new trinkets overpowered.

At the end of the tier, I'll revisit if that's fun and maybe farm up frost legendaries for the last raid tier. That's a round robin experience with all 3 specs over the lifecycle of the xpac. Switching like that also keeps the game fun. This is from the perspective of a mythic raider with a really small raid schedule.

[Deleted]

Currently frost is highly competitive and OP at 99%. The way currently works is that it skews it's dmg in a boost whne you can zerg fights. So it looks better than it effectively is.

Frost will probably be around the above centre ranking on warcraft logs. It might not be in competive range (3% off 2e-4e dpser). But will still be fine.
Fire just scales badly and althought the new set will help it will be a bottom area spec.
Arcane not sure probably be in between them.

To my knowledge ToS will have less AoE than Nighthold.

[D3athsting]

To my knowledge ToS will have less AoE than Nighthold.

This is relatively irrelevant, the main question is:
"Will there be mechanics for melee or will they continue to tunnel bosses doing 1+KK while ranged have to run around like headless chicken?