Legion - Assassination Discussion

[TheRogue]

Yeah arent we talking like 3-5% gap between specs? So unless you're in the mix for world top 10 it wont matter to you.

Also I just got back after not playing for a while. I dont like sinister circulation, it desyncs from Vendetta so much now, I assume its still more damage from more uses but I liked always having it sync up.

[RobertoCarlos]

isnt that better than being stuck to the same spec all exp?

As long as the spec plays well and gets invited to groups I dont really care what the top 3 specs are. I'm used to the round robin that blizzard/most games implement in competitive games. Meta changes every patch in dota/LoL.

But as it stands I wouldnt really say assassin plays well and just has the numbers behide it. Take away the numbers and you're not left with much

[Toogoodman]

I mean to be fair, my guild will probably be top 10 US again in ToS and myself and the others are just staying assassination unless something big happens. I could see myself playing Sub, especially after the changes coming, but 3~5% difference on the top end doesn't really matter when you're expected to play a class consistently in the 95+ percentile. I know for me personally, i can play sub at around the same level as sin, but the QoL from sin is much better so far (well see in 7.2.5 since i didn't do any ptr testing), being able to leave bleeds on the boss and soak, or do another rogue specific mechanic is pretty nice.

[Deleted]

As glad as I am that APs gone and we potentially get some variety in that talent tier, it also made our boss downtime negligent as long as we were not energy capping. Now our bleeds don't hit as hard anymore, not having uptime on the boss means less DP damage, less DP applications, therefore less KB CD reduction and thus less KB damage. There was a time where we only missed out on white hit damage when not being at the boss for some seconds. Surely this is outweighed by all the shit we hate about AP, but I thought I'd point it out anyways.

[shaunika123]

I mean to be fair, my guild will probably be top 10 US again in ToS and myself and the others are just staying assassination unless something big happens. I could see myself playing Sub, especially after the changes coming, but 3~5% difference on the top end doesn't really matter when you're expected to play a class consistently in the 95+ percentile. I know for me personally, i can play sub at around the same level as sin, but the QoL from sin is much better so far (well see in 7.2.5 since i didn't do any ptr testing), being able to leave bleeds on the boss and soak, or do another rogue specific mechanic is pretty nice.

no offense(in fact it's more like a compliment) but how are you world ~40 and not do any PTR tests?:P


but on topic, If I'm completely honest, for 100% optimal performance i could see us playing all 3 specs on different bosses in ToS

like there's no way i'm playing assa on harjatan for example

both OL and sub with cloak will definitely better

[Deleted]

how is assa more forgiving? lol

kingsbane vendetta and toxic blades are all ridiculously low CD cooldowns that all require 100% uptime
not to mention not having uptime basically double dips it because not only are you not using the cooldown, you're also not reducing it's cooldown

sub can just delay dance if it needs to since it has 2 charges, and it has more mobility than either spec.

and while outlaw needs uptime, it can at least spam pistol shot+between the eyes from afar.

as long as rupture and garrote are placed on the boss, you will still have ~30% of your dps for several seconds (duration of the bleed-dots) while moving around. Deadly poison will never fade due to the usage of poison knives (but it only makes sense to use this spell to keep deadly poison up and to avoid to overcap with energy. In best case scenario you should have nearly full energy if you return to the boss).

Sub is a little bit weaker. You can still maintain around 20%. Shuriken toss is a waste of energy as long as you are not capped.

As outlaw you have PS and maybe BtE (if its not on CD while dealing with those mechanics). PS alone is not worth speaking dps wise.

The uptime-gaps of some mechanics are quite long (several seconds per gap).

[shaunika123]

as long as rupture and garrote are placed on the boss, you will still have ~30% of your dps for several seconds (duration of the bleed-dots) while moving around. Deadly poison will never fade due to the usage of poison knives (but it only makes sense to use this spell to keep deadly poison up and to avoid to overcap with energy. In best case scenario you should have nearly full energy if you return to the boss).

Sub is a little bit weaker. You can still maintain around 20%. Shuriken toss is a waste of energy as long as you are not capped.

As outlaw you have PS and maybe BtE (if its not on CD while dealing with those mechanics). PS alone is not worth speaking dps wise.

The uptime-gaps of some mechanics are quite long (several seconds per gap).

yeah, but if you have to run out during one of your cooldowns (of which basically one will always be up since they're not only scattered as fuck, last relatively long but they're also frequent as hell)

running out when kingsbane/TB/vendetta is on the boss is a huge dps loss compared capping like 10-20 energy as sub
and since sub doesnt have passive energy regen from venom rush, if you just get close to 0 energy before having to run out to do something and most of the time you wont regen overcap, or maybe for a couple seconds tops

so while assa maintains the most of their dmg by not being on the boss, it also loses the most.

if you make sure not to have 2(or 3 with talent) dances up when you have to run out then you wont lose much by being out.

like on what bosses would you have to be off it for more than 4-5 seconds at a time frequently anyway?

[Riverr]

yeah, but if you have to run out during one of your cooldowns (of which basically one will always be up since they're not only scattered as fuck, last relatively long but they're also frequent as hell)

running out when kingsbane/TB/vendetta is on the boss is a huge dps loss compared capping like 10-20 energy as sub
and since sub doesnt have passive energy regen from venom rush, if you just get close to 0 energy before having to run out to do something and most of the time you wont regen overcap, or maybe for a couple seconds tops

so while assa maintains the most of their dmg by not being on the boss, it also loses the most.

if you make sure not to have 2(or 3 with talent) dances up when you have to run out then you wont lose much by being out.

like on what bosses would you have to be off it for more than 4-5 seconds at a time frequently anyway?

This is the biggest gripe I've had with sin. Building up agonising poison isn't that big a deal for target switching (if the add is up for any reasonable amount of time), its that priority adds often last less than 20 seconds which means if you *do* save your CDs for the add, you'll probably lose about 50% of their effectiveness due to either kill time or ramp up. If you *don't* save your CDs, you'll likely be switching targets whilst you have atleast 1 cd up on the boss. Vendetta has always been a pain with how long it lasts, so I think I'm looking forward to moving away from COF (and maybe even boots) to allow it to have a smaller impact on my rotation.

As others have said, it'll probably be a case of switching specs per fight like we did in previous expansions. Farming 9 relics as opposed to 4 weapons will be a bit of a pain but at least there are plenty of places to get them outside of raid. Sins niche will likely be on 2-3 target cleave.

[Deleted]

Wow they halfed the 2pc bonus instead of "balancing/adjusting" it. But like always blizz is doing it several days before the patch is live....

[Deleted]

Okay, with the adjusting, fixing switching and nerfing I got confused. What exactly are our Set-Bonuses right now?

[ymirsson]

Okay, with the adjusting, fixing switching and nerfing I got confused. What exactly are our Set-Bonuses right now?

Unexciting. Maybe even irrelevant.

[nocturnus]

Maybe even irrelevant.

I sure hope so.

Irrelevant setbonus = more freedom of choice. More freedom = excellent!

[Deleted]

Okay, with the adjusting, fixing switching and nerfing I got confused. What exactly are our Set-Bonuses right now?

2P: 30% increased garrote damage
4P: garrote CD reduced by 12s and energy cost reduced by 25

[Verdugo]

2P: 30% increased garrote damage
4P: garrote CD reduced by 12s and energy cost reduced by 25

So is there supposed to be some incentive for us to get that set bonus?

[Toogoodman]

no offense(in fact it's more like a compliment) but how are you world ~40 and not do any PTR tests?:P


but on topic, If I'm completely honest, for 100% optimal performance i could see us playing all 3 specs on different bosses in ToS

like there's no way i'm playing assa on harjatan for example

both OL and sub with cloak will definitely better

OL with cloak/shoulders and SnD would be a pretty fun spec, a little boring in the downtime but anything is more fun than RTB.

If i have to run anything other than sin itll be Sub, especially with how dancing works now, it emphasizes using dance as a burst window instead of where you do 95% of your dmg. What really made sub miserable was needing to do almost all of your damage while in dance, but needing to spend a shit ton of energy for SoD every couple of dances. Now, well actually do damage outside of dancing, and with how important dancing is for burst, well be making sure our nightblade is good to go, which youre supposed to do anyways. Itll be nice, out of dancing damage being some what decent, Vanish and dancing being HUGE, and no sprint vanish (thank god), it looks pretty decent!

On the PTR subject, we dont require PTR testing, or alts, or splits. Were a pretty unique guild for how high our ranking is. Also, ive never seen anyone in my guild on the PTR, we keep up to date with everything going on, but we try to have fun while ranking high! Also, ive been playing rogue for 12 years, i would hope i can play the class at a high level now haha, and on that subject outlaw does not feel like a rogue spec, its like an incest DK spec.

[Kortiah]

So is there supposed to be some incentive for us to get that set bonus?

If there's lots of cleaving it's super good. Otherwise it's shit.

That's basically 25 energy every 15sec and that's it. Super boring.

[shaunika123]

So is there supposed to be some incentive for us to get that set bonus?

well the 4pc is 25 energy every 12 seconds
venom rush is 36 energy every 12 seconds

venom rush is about ~7% dmg done
so the 4pc would come out to about 4%

and that's only on PURE ST when you cant abuse the multigarrote advantage it gives

it's not the most exciting setbonus (in ST, i think it's fun when you can spread the shit out of garrote) but it's not as bad as it looks dps wise

[Puffah]

The sims favor getting 4p T20, though I'm not sure why those 25 energy outweighs better itemization. But what do I know, probably underestimating energy "return" as usual

Also the 2p nerf from 60% to 30% reduced sim dps from 1.058 mill to 1.045. It's so bad that it didnt really do anything

[ymirsson]

well the 4pc is 25 energy every 12 seconds
venom rush is 36 energy every 12 seconds

venom rush is about ~7% dmg done
so the 4pc would come out to about 4%

and that's only on PURE ST when you cant abuse the multigarrote advantage it gives

it's not the most exciting setbonus (in ST, i think it's fun when you can spread the shit out of garrote) but it's not as bad as it looks dps wise

Since when do we get energy from the set?

[Todesbote]

Since when do we get energy from the set?

2P: 30% increased garrote damage
4P: garrote CD reduced by 12s and energy cost reduced by 25

10char.....