Power Loss in 7.2.5 - Accompanying Boss Nerfs?

[KaPe]

Stingy? They have been steadily nerfing the hell out of the instance over it's lifetime, and gave players huge power spikes in 7.2

No, they weren't. It took them almost until 7.2 to nerf Augur - and more importantly, Spellblade. Previous changes were "nerf the dps check, make healing harder", which doesn't really make the things much easier. When you compare it to many other instances, that is being stingy.

Eh? The power spike compared to nighthold launch is already insane since concordance came. If you can't kill the boss by now, it's because your raid group fails at mechanics, not because you can't make a dps check.

So if a boss suddenly became 5% harder and you couldn't make some dps check you were used to for weeks, it would be "failing at mechanics"? It doesn't matter how much easier the place has become, indirectly buffing it one week before the end of FoS doesn't make any sense.

[Temp name]

I was convinced the ilvl increase opens with mythic TOS and not with the patch? So like 2 weeks after the patch?

Ilvl increase should come with the raid, not the mythic version of it

[Deleted]

While I'm sure this isn't really relevant to many people, as a guild still progressing on Gul'dan this concerns me -

Many classes are seeing an overt power reduction in 7.2.5 as well as the majority of class 2 sets (and some 4 sets) being nerfed, harshly in some cases. If 7.2.5 is coming out next week but tomb the week after then the raid is going to be arbitrarily harder by maybe about 5% for that week, slowing down last week progress for some guilds and may even deny a few cutting edge.

My suggestion is that the bosses should have a 5% damage and health reduction placed on them for next week to make up for the set bonus nerfs (and other class nerfs) or just to not have the set bonus nerfs applied till ToS week 1 (having 7.2.5 on week 1 would make much more sense though)

I can understand the frustration. I think the intend of launching the patch 1 week prior to ToS is to gather a ton of data on class performance, rather than giving you a extra week to clear NH. I Also only killed Gul'dan semi recently, and the 5% nerfs might hurt - but the fight is mostly about execution with the current gear lvls + AP. Last time we did progress on Gul'dan the increase in DPS we had from getting concordance etc actually caused us to wipe - as timings got shifted. I think as long as you practice the fight, you should be fine

[KaPe]

I can understand the frustration. I think the intend of launching the patch 1 week prior to ToS is to gather a ton of data on class performance, rather than giving you a extra week to clear NH. I Also only killed Gul'dan semi recently, and the 5% nerfs might hurt - but the fight is mostly about execution with the current gear lvls + AP. Last time we did progress on Gul'dan the increase in DPS we had from getting concordance etc actually caused us to wipe - as timings got shifted. I think as long as you practice the fight, you should be fine

5% dps loss could easily mean things like getting Fel Lord or fifth empowered eye - either of which could add quite a bit of (re)progress time. I really doubt that guilds which still didn't get FoS can afford few seconds here and there. It's not really comparable to Concordance buff - you can easily stop dps for couple seconds to make up for that. Doesn't work in reverse.

[Deleted]

5% dps loss could easily mean things like getting Fel Lord or fifth empowered eye - either of which could add quite a bit of (re)progress time. I really doubt that guilds which still didn't get FoS can afford few seconds here and there. It's not really comparable to Concordance buff - you can easily stop dps for couple seconds to make up for that. Doesn't work in reverse.

I understand what your saying - but my whole point is that with current ilvls/AP we are able to push the boss during second empowered hellfire with TW - so we had to swap stop TWing in p1 - and we still make it. Adding to that our speed rank (kill time on guldan) is only 25% - which means we in no way are insane dps wise.

With TW and 5% nerfs on all dps classes (which is not true, its less for some) - phasing him in time is totally doable!

[anaxie]

While I'm sure this isn't really relevant to many people, as a guild still progressing on Gul'dan this concerns me -

Many classes are seeing an overt power reduction in 7.2.5 as well as the majority of class 2 sets (and some 4 sets) being nerfed, harshly in some cases. If 7.2.5 is coming out next week but tomb the week after then the raid is going to be arbitrarily harder by maybe about 5% for that week, slowing down last week progress for some guilds and may even deny a few cutting edge.

My suggestion is that the bosses should have a 5% damage and health reduction placed on them for next week to make up for the set bonus nerfs (and other class nerfs) or just to not have the set bonus nerfs applied till ToS week 1 (having 7.2.5 on week 1 would make much more sense though)

irrelevant.

T19 is officially over when ToS launches. changes that adversely affect Nighthold is inconsequential when you can get ToS gea

[KaPe]

irrelevant.

T19 is officially over when ToS launches. changes that adversely affect Nighthold is inconsequential when you can get ToS gea

So what you're saying is, it is still relevant for that one week between the patch and ToS launch. Thus agreeing with the op, I guess?

[Casagrande]

Power creep over the past few months from gear, concordance, etc., combined with new gear from the new raid... You'll be fine.

[Deleted]

Eh? The power spike compared to nighthold launch is already insane since concordance came. If you can't kill the boss by now, it's because your raid group fails at mechanics, not because you can't make a dps check.

Such a statement will never work. Its everything but the own skill.

"star augur prenerfed with 902 ilvl is cheating, magic, whatever. But if we fail after dozens of nerfs, new traits, 910+ ilvl and month of practise, it has nothing to do with skill".

[Zyky]

Stingy? They have been steadily nerfing the hell out of the instance over it's lifetime, and gave players huge power spikes in 7.2

"Steadily nerfing" what the majority of the mythic community has vocalized as ridiculously overtuned, that's called balancing a fuck-up.

[Deleted]

Most classes got buffed quite a bit, it's not really gonna make a difference for a week of Nighthold.

Unless there are problems, then blizzard will adjust them.

[Tradu]

The bosses already got nerfed(too much in a lot of cases), and you already got the indirect nerf of a whole set of new talents + Concordance as well as a lot of extra gear compared to early kills, there's really no need for more nerfs.

[honung]

Gul'dan is not a difficult boss in terms of tuning at all currently. It's a mechanics fight and that is all, the DPS check is a joke. You'll be fine.

[Sting]

So if a boss suddenly became 5% harder and you couldn't make some dps check you were used to for weeks, it would be "failing at mechanics"? It doesn't matter how much easier the place has become, indirectly buffing it one week before the end of FoS doesn't make any sense.

I could have just been blunt and said "If you can't make the dps check by now, you're just plain terrible".

[Deleted]

"Steadily nerfing" what the majority of the mythic community has vocalized as ridiculously overtuned, that's called balancing a fuck-up.

Let's compare.

Tier 17 (Blackrock Foundry)
Duration: February 3rd 2015 - June 23rd 2015 (+- 4 months and 20 days)
Mythic Blackhand kills: 686
Average kills per month (rounded): 137
(At that time it represented 0.97% of the playerbase)

Tier 18 (Hellfire Citadel)
Duration: June 23rd 2015 - August 29th 2016 (+- 14 months)
Mythic Archimonde kills: 2850
Average kills per month (rounded): 203
(At that time it represented 5.26% of the playerbase)*
(*) If you look at the first 5 months, 609 guilds killed him, or 0.88% of the playerbase)

Tier 19 (Nighthold)
Duration: January 17th 2017 - June 20th 2017 (+- 5 months and 3 days)
Mythic Guldan kills as of right now : 1254
Average kills per month (based on 5 months): 250
(Currently it represents 2.05% of the playerbase).

In the history of WoW, there's never been this many mythic tier end boss kills within this amount of time, it's safe to say the content is rather easy than hard now, and if your guild cannot kill it with 910+ item level with good progression on it, I'm fairly sure that the guild is the problem and not the gear or the tuning of the raid.

[Inukenshin]

people saying "your own fault for not clearing it faster" must be really short-minded.
I've cleared nighthold 3months ago but still I wouldn't like seeing guilds that are just more casual, for whatever reason, have a harder time for one week because blizzard is making balance changes in preperation for tomb but not compensating for it in nighthold.
I hate seeing people bash on lower end guilds.
This game is only around because we have have tons of casual players and those may only have time 2days/week to commit to raiding, or they can't prep outside of raiding because they have other more important things to do, they care a little less about the game or they're just not as good as others.
The important part is that IF 7.2.5 really brings a significant power loss due to nerfing the setbonuses blizzard is making it harder for those guilds that aren't finished yet, but many of them may still be able to get their cutting edge before tomb release. And trust me cutting edge means a lot more for those people that are close to it than you world 100-500 or w/e you are.
Best way to go at this would probably be to make the setchanges when tomb releases rather than with the patch because I don't trust blizzard to nerf nighthold by exactly the percentage of power loss that people are gonna have by the changes.

Blizzard has said this time and time again - Mythic raiding is not meant for casual low end guilds. Some people here are bashing which I dont agree with but do you think your guild is going to have a problem with clearing M NH next week? dont think so.

[Deleted]

did someone really say "blizzard making balance changes"
in which way? nerf monk even more?!
give monk the worse ST damage with 7.2.5 while still having a ridicilous bad ST dmg in general?
nerfing a talent that was good for monks, while not upping others in the same row?
nerfing shit that doesnt even had to be nerfed for a class that is bottom tier?

blizzard is absolutly insane right now.
i dont know... if they dont play their own game or just ignoring combat logs and forums from very good theorycrafters at all.

this is so pathetic even a fucking dog could do better.

[XDurionX]

The buff of 7.2 by the additional traits has been immense and won't be offset by 7.2.5. But i don't disagree with nerfing content that is not relevant anymore and making it available to more players once Tomb opens.

[KaPe]

I could have just been blunt and said "If you can't make the dps check by now, you're just plain terrible".

Well aren't you a great person for holding back.

Did you conveniently forget that Blizzard claims they don't buff the encounters after they've been already killed? (which somehow excluded Il'gynoth) Nerfing classes in a patch is an indirect encounter buff, and if the end result is an overall raid dps loss, they should change the bosses to compensate. Whether you consider that "terrible", "not needed" or anything else is irrelevant.

The buff of 7.2 by the additional traits has been immense and won't be offset by 7.2.5. But i don't disagree with nerfing content that is not relevant anymore and making it available to more players once Tomb opens.

The 7.2 buff is irrelevant in context of 7.2.5 changes. The actual question is - "is the instance intended to be harder because some classes/tier bonuses are being nerfed"? If yes, then fine, no changes are needed. If it's intended to be roughly the same, they should compensate. Well, unless their assumption is that currently weakers specs will now be stronger and that's enough.

[Sting]

Well aren't you a great person for holding back.

Did you conveniently forget that Blizzard claims they don't buff the encounters after they've been already killed? (which somehow excluded Il'gynoth) Nerfing classes in a patch is an indirect encounter buff, and if the end result is an overall raid dps loss, they should change the bosses to compensate. Whether you consider that "terrible", "not needed" or anything else is irrelevant.The 7.2 buff is irrelevant in context of 7.2.5 changes. The actual question is - "is the instance intended to be harder because some classes/tier bonuses are being nerfed"? If yes, then fine, no changes are needed. If it's intended to be roughly the same, they should compensate. Well, unless their assumption is that currently weakers specs will now be stronger and that's enough.

That's just the cold hard truth. You have all the tools you need to skip half the fight on gul'dan, a few % nerfs on a set bonus isn't going to break that, unless you just aren't good enough. It's outdated content by a fair margin at this point.