Resto in 7.2.5

[Tiberria]

Why do most of you consider the shoulders to be garbage in 7.2.5? How often do you actually get more than 9 seconds rejuv extensions? I'd expect to nearly never see the full 15 seconds.

3 reasons:

1. They are going from +5 ticks to +3 ticks, which is a 40% nerf to the raw throughput potential of them, which alone would probably bring them back to the level of other legendaries like Prydaz, etc.
2. We are going to be dropping T19 4pc, and a lot of the value of shoulders to begin with was the interaction with that..
3. They use up a tier slot, which rules out being able to use T19 2 pc + T20 4pc, and losing that 2 piece is probably at least 2% throughput, even if you have to drop ilvl a bit to keep it.

The combination of these 3 things just makes them an undesirable legendary - and probably clearly out of the top 6.

[Cheze]

assuming your rejuvs are relatively efficient now (i.e. <50% overheal) the shoulders nerf probably will not make much difference in their effectiveness. You will not be able to be quite as aggressive when pre-hotting targets and will lose some uptime, but likely it was mostly empty overheal in 7.2 anyway.

I think that belt and trinket will both be better (tbh this is already the case if LB can be fully utilized), but after that it's pretty arguable. Prydaz is also 'empty' throughput, shoulders should still contribute much more rejuv uptime than the ring, and none of the other 'third' options are terribly exciting. The belt also loses a lot of value in situations where tank healing is not a big concern, which might push us away from it on some encounters.

ed: also my expectation is that the current 2p bonus will be nerfed if it winds up being strong enough that people want to maintain it past heroic progression.

[Tiberria]

assuming your rejuvs are relatively efficient now (i.e. <50% overheal) the shoulders nerf probably will not make much difference in their effectiveness. You will not be able to be quite as aggressive when pre-hotting targets and will lose some uptime, but likely it was mostly empty overheal in 7.2 anyway.

I think that belt and trinket will both be better (tbh this is already the case if LB can be fully utilized), but after that it's pretty arguable. Prydaz is also 'empty' throughput, shoulders should still contribute much more rejuv uptime than the ring, and none of the other 'third' options are terribly exciting. The belt also loses a lot of value in situations where tank healing is not a big concern, which might push us away from it on some encounters.

ed: also my expectation is that the current 2p bonus will be nerfed if it winds up being strong enough that people want to maintain it past heroic progression.

But a big part of what makes the shoulders so powerful is that when there is no damage for 8, 10, 12 seconds, it allows you to carry additional Rejuv effects over to the next time there is damage for them to heal. Having 40% less added duration directly hits that benefit as well as reducing the total Rejuv effects the shoulders let you have active (thus reducing the mastery gain). It's a fallacy to say that <50% Rejuv overheal means that 40% nerf won't matter that much, because what matters is the specific timing around that Rejuv overhealing and the typical length of time between taking damage. In most fights, it's probably 10-15 seconds, which directly hits the value of the shoulders.

Even if Tearstone gives less total Rejuv uptime than the nerfed shoulders, what matters is the actual effectiveness of that extra Rejuv uptime. With Tearstone, the extra Rejuvs are only going on targets healed with WG, and with WG being a pure smart heal, those targets are already going to be the 6 lowest health within 30 yards - which typically guarantees the procs will go on targets that need healing. Plus, the mastery value of those Rejuvs is a lot higher, since you are starting out with at least the one extra HoT effect from having WG on them. Shoulders will do more raw healing, but a lot of it is just going to be wasted if people remain at 100% HP - especially with the shorter extension duration.

Prydaz isn't really empty throughput. Even with the self only healing, that extra shielding significantly adds to self survivability during progression. Playing with vs without Prydaz is very noticable in terms of how cautious you have to be with healing yourself and handling certain mechanics. Plus, the extra healing on you is additional healing/GCDs/mana that you and other healers don't have to spend. For example, if Prydaz keeps your HP% higher, it lets your WG go on someone else that maybe doesn't have the survivability options you do instead of you. Sure, that doesn't matter when there's no damage going out, but ultimately if there's no damage going out, does any other legendary really matter? There are next to no fights that don't have at least a decent amount of unavoidable raid damage these days. Also, you have to take into account the value of the extra secondary stats Prydaz has vs the ilvl budget for a 940 neck which doesn't show up on meters and adds like 2%.

We will see about the set bonuses; they have shown no signs of nerfing it. However, especially if you have a couple of high ilvl T19 pieces, or can even just use low itemization slots like cloak/gloves, 2 piece will continue to be worth wearing in the same way people were wearing 860 Drape of Shames over 900 cloaks.

[Pokas]

3. Sure, the extra survivability from Guardian Affinity is nice. However, it's not like any competent Monk, Priest or Shaman should be dying to avoidable raid mechanics in the first place. We also don't have an immunity like Paladins do, so it's not like we can solo certain mechanics the way Rogues, Mages, etc. are able to - which would be bringing utility. This doesn't add utility over what any competent player playing any class would bring.

Even with the self only healing, that extra shielding significantly adds to self survivability during progression. Playing with vs without Prydaz is very noticable in terms of how cautious you have to be with healing yourself and handling certain mechanics. .

Interesting, when arguing that druids have a really good survivability, "it does not matter for a competent player that can handle mechanics well, so it's not utility"
But then, all of a sudden, self survivability "is very noticeable"
You should have more consistent points.

[Purpleisbetter]

guess ironbark, mobility (tranq/rejuv spam mobility), insane survivability counts for nothing on progress

xd

Mobility so far never been an issue.
Besides, r. Sham can do the same.

Ironbark aint nothing unique either. Be real now: you take r. Druids for the throughput alone.

[Deleted]

wouldnt call mobility an issue either if i played resto druid

[theburned]

Mobility so far never been an issue.
Besides, r. Sham can do the same.

Ironbark aint nothing unique either. Be real now: you take r. Druids for the throughput alone.

Lets first start by saying you are fighting over 3rd, 4th and 5th spot in a raid. (5th doesnt really matter as you can probably bring literally anything for that.)
rsham is not a big issue though, I dont see why you would bring a 2nd rsham over your first rdruid, as rdruids have significantly more throughput, unless you desperately need SLT.
Holy priest does have a major issue with mobility which is the main weakness of the specc, it can provide more throughput, and a similar raid cd and got ankh, but mobility is really a shot to the knee, more so in ToS than NH at least. And beyond the ankh, additional throughput and quick/spot healing, they dont bring a lot to the table. Any unfortunate or extended movement will just butcher their throughput (or at least the benefits of getting healing out quick.). Most of their casting time will be spent trying to get holy words off cd, and considering how holy words provide significant buffs this will punish movement even more.
Their tank cd is fairly weak and is also on a 4 minute cooldown. Their raid cd, while probably providing more healing overall through bonus healing to others etc. it requires you to be stationary for 6-7 seconds which certainly makes it bad for a lot of fights and makes it super RNG for others. This will be our main competitor for 3rd and 4th spot.
Disc generally has similar strengths to rdruids, but they have weak survivability, and weak mobility, most of their healing can done on the move though. In return they provide damage and also have stronger burst windows than druids. Though the specc is fairly unpopular, in my guild its either me or our hpriest playing it. And quite frankly I dont see either happening. But they also compete for the same spot as the first resto shaman, you could still run disc/hpala/rdruid unless ofc ankh totem is necessary aswell. (it doesnt seem to be able to cheese too many mechanics in ToS as in NH though.)

[Purpleisbetter]

Mobility is reaaaally overestimated.

It's really simple: they do not tune an encounter damage done around Pallies with bubble legendary or Resto druids with Guardian affinity. Nor they EVER tuned a fight around r.druid/feral/DH/monk mobility.

We're back to square one: MW, H.Priest and R.Druid have nothing but numbers to offer. Our issue, as a spec, is that we're so "over-time" with virtually non existent spot healing; if we do the same or even just slightly lower healing than the other two said specs(which per se, is not even remotely an issue), it's game over.

Besides, dunno why this is so hard to understand, our glorious healing-on-the-move will be gone in a couple of days. No more shoulders and no more 4pcT19. So, the narrative where we are apparently completely immune from movement is about to end.

The next is that Ironbark is not that unfairly great unless u either talent or invest relic (or both). Indeed good, as many other good things from other healers.

[kooz]

Is it known what's the value of 4pt19? If it's not nerfed and is relatively high ilvl, why would I break it before I get 4pct20? As long as I keep 4pct19, I believe shoulders are going to be quite good even after nerf as their synergy with 4pt19 is quite strong.

[theburned]

Mobility is reaaaally overestimated.

It's really simple: they do not tune an encounter damage done around Pallies with bubble legendary or Resto druids with Guardian affinity. Nor they EVER tuned a fight around r.druid/feral/DH/monk mobility.

We're back to square one: MW, H.Priest and R.Druid have nothing but numbers to offer. Our issue, as a spec, is that we're so "over-time" with virtually non existent spot healing; if we do the same or even just slightly lower healing than the other two said specs(which per se, is not even remotely an issue), it's game over.

Besides, dunno why this is so hard to understand, our glorious healing-on-the-move will be gone in a couple of days. No more shoulders and no more 4pcT19. So, the narrative where we are apparently completely immune from movement is about to end.

The next is that Ironbark is not that unfairly great unless u either talent or invest relic (or both). Indeed good, as many other good things from other healers.

News flash: They dont tune bosses around these things, they tune bosses around being beaten at roughly x ilvl, so when guilds go in with x - 10 or x - 15 ilvl we need every advantage we can get. Wheter that is ankh totems/DR cds/mobility or basically any other "utility" you can bring. What's good is obviously dictated by the fight and your strat for handling it. It turns out the 2 last bosses of the tier, the ones who are supposedly tuned the hardest has mechanics that are way easier to handle with blinks and high mobility, this doesn't mean its mandatory or anything, thats not how this game is supposed to work either, but if you can cut down your wipes on those bosses by 5-10 pulls thats easily worth bringing a resto druid over x healer.

Rdruid healing patterns are very controlled and still bring some of the best focused healing into (1-4 soakers + tanks) few targets including some reliable and strong fairly passive tank healing. When a tank says they really want a hpala and rdruid healing because it makes up for so much reliable and constant healing, it doesnt really matter if druid were doing a bit less than other classes (which I dont believe is the case).

"Shoulders no longer a thing" Just because it was nerfed a bit, it doesn't mean that its not a strong legendary, its just not your must have or you're screwed kind of legendary anymore. Also good luck getting 4p vanq, you are just so far down on the priority list, so you are stuck with t19 for a while, or be happy with normal t20, which really isnt worth it over t19.

Untalented ironbark is still arguably the strongest tank cd, its not like you need to waste talents/relics/legendaries to make it as good as other tank cds. Its not gamebreaking, but it certainly helps.

[MatthewOU2015]

I'm glad druids won't be top dogs anymore. No reason a mobile healer should be #1 on all fights. Even on stationary fights druids are superior. They deserve the hunter treatment.

[Deleted]

I'm glad druids won't be top dogs anymore. No reason a mobile healer should be #1 on all fights. Even on stationary fights druids are superior. They deserve the hunter treatment.

Trust me, Druids will still be top dogs.

[kooz]

problem is not druid but paly/sham as they are considered must have for most heal set ups

[procne]

Is there any place where I can see all the changes done in 7.2.5 (or comparison between PTR and live)?

[Rici]

If you are looking for class changes, I'd suggest
http://www.wowhead.com/news=263129/a...in-patch-7-2-5

[procne]

If you are looking for class changes, I'd suggest
http://www.wowhead.com/news=263129/a...in-patch-7-2-5

Thanks.
Hmm how do I read this:

Effect #1 Apply Aura: Modifies Damage/Healing Done
Value: 0-4%

Effect of all spells is being decreased by 4%? But there are no changes in spell description, so it won't be visible in description?
Or is this aura just a temporary PTR effect for testing purposes?

[Rici]

It is a modifier added by your specialization.

You could interpret this as "Every resto druid creates an additional 10% out of his heal spells". Now this would be only 6%.
These were randomly chosen values.

[theburned]

Thanks.
Hmm how do I read this:

Effect #1 Apply Aura: Modifies Damage/Healing Done
Value: 0-4%

Effect of all spells is being decreased by 4%? But there are no changes in spell description, so it won't be visible in description?
Or is this aura just a temporary PTR effect for testing purposes?

All affected spells are effectively nerfed by 4%. There really isnt much more to it.

[Purpleisbetter]

News flash: They dont tune bosses around these things, they tune bosses around being beaten at roughly x ilvl, so when guilds go in with x - 10 or x - 15 ilvl we need every advantage we can get. Wheter that is ankh totems/DR cds/mobility or basically any other "utility" you can bring. What's good is obviously dictated by the fight and your strat for handling it. It turns out the 2 last bosses of the tier, the ones who are supposedly tuned the hardest has mechanics that are way easier to handle with blinks and high mobility, this doesn't mean its mandatory or anything, thats not how this game is supposed to work either, but if you can cut down your wipes on those bosses by 5-10 pulls thats easily worth bringing a resto druid over x healer.

Rdruid healing patterns are very controlled and still bring some of the best focused healing into (1-4 soakers + tanks) few targets including some reliable and strong fairly passive tank healing. When a tank says they really want a hpala and rdruid healing because it makes up for so much reliable and constant healing, it doesnt really matter if druid were doing a bit less than other classes (which I dont believe is the case).

"Shoulders no longer a thing" Just because it was nerfed a bit, it doesn't mean that its not a strong legendary, its just not your must have or you're screwed kind of legendary anymore. Also good luck getting 4p vanq, you are just so far down on the priority list, so you are stuck with t19 for a while, or be happy with normal t20, which really isnt worth it over t19.

Untalented ironbark is still arguably the strongest tank cd, its not like you need to waste talents/relics/legendaries to make it as good as other tank cds. Its not gamebreaking, but it certainly helps.

The fuck is that!?

[theburned]

The fuck is that!?

Good to know you are a troll with 0 clue about raiding.