The Future of Mythic+ in 7.2.5

[ItsTiddles]

This is correct. There are very minimal differences in 'execution' from a 23 to a 25. Things not properly dealt with will one-shot you, and you should already know how to execute the dungeons properly by then. Interrupt X, Stun Y, avoid Z, etc.

I would like to point out one major flaw with this. If you look at OP, Meowchan, he is the highest rated m+ player in the world. Nobody else has his score. Meaning not all of his top runs were with the same exact group. In the group I run with, we alternate between 5 or so different dps. Changing one class can dramatically change the way you want to execute things. You can have a general idea of "yes we go this way and this mob hurts" but you can't exactly mimic a previous run, especially one from a different week with different affixes.

[slickwilly]

Way too much babbling here....blah blah blah blah. Holy fucking shit.

OP just wants his key to be locked. Big deal. Sounds like a reasonable request. No need to discuss like its a pHD thesis.

[Super Kami Dende]

Neither of you are right. Let's assume one person's house is standing in the way of construction progress for something important like a highway that will make faster routes possible to the local hospital. Guy doesn't want to move even though it benefits lots of people and inconveniences only one. You'd say that it shouldn't matter and that guy should move. He'd say they shouldn't build it. I'd say they should build around or over him. That's what these guys are asking for. Nobody is saying that they need to halt all progressive construction because it hurts them. They just want to have the option of doing things their way.

yes I would say that, because Majority rules.

[Qnubi]

The official patchnotes don't mention anything of the changes, was is postponed?

[pseudoJ]

I generally agree with the changes Blizzard is making to the system... except the concern Mewchan mention is valid and real.
TBH it is quite mind boggling to me that a bunch of game designer in Blizzard didn't realize this (and didn't listen to the community). A perfectly viable solution for both sides would be to have the keys be depleted but allow them to be "reforged"-- this "reforging" could actually be a pretty decent sink for order hall resources.

I don't think only insanely high level runners are affected by this. Do people who run lower levels not wish to rerun a dungeon a second time trying to make the timer?

You are of course correct. I don't think you will find understanding on these forums though -- since the majority of people here perceives M+ differently than you (and me). I'm exactly the type of a person you are talking about -- for me the limit is currently at around 20, however that is a limit cause by my (and my group mates) skill ceiling. For us it is as valid pushing +21 as it is for you pushing +26. However most of the people here run the dungeons for loot and stop once it is not exactly comfortable to run (and then make conclusions about how easy higher m+ are).

- - - Updated - - -

The official patchnotes don't mention anything of the changes, was is postponed?

Blizzard tends to omit changes from their patch notes -- a lot.

[dcc626]

I generally agree with the changes Blizzard is making to the system... except the concern Mewchan mention is valid and real.
TBH it is quite mind boggling to me that a bunch of game designer in Blizzard didn't realize this (and didn't listen to do community). A perfecty viable solution for both sides would be to have the keys be depeleted but allow them to be "reforged"-- this "reforging" could actually be a pretty decent sink for order hall resources.



You are of course correct. I don't think you will find understanding on these forums though -- since the majority of people here perceives M+ differently than you (and me). I'm exactly the type of a person you are talking about -- for me the limit is currently at around 20, however that is a limit cause by my (and my group mates) skill ceiling. For us it is as valid pushing +21 as it is for you pushing +26. However most of the people here run the dungeons for loot and stop once it is not exactly comfortable to run (and then make conclusions about how easy higher m+ are).

- - - Updated - - -



Blizzard tends to omit changes from their patch notes -- a lot.

they updated patch notes throughout the day. m+ changes are now listed.

[pseudoJ]

You are a tiny minority of a minority, as can be seen from the many responses in this thread. People are fine pushing keys without ever running depleted keys - everyone in thread who has run a 15 in time is in the top 1% of players and most of them think your concerns are overblown. I think they're valid and this will be significant loss for quality of life for you guys.

But. When you say you're playing "as intended", what evidence do you have that Blizzard intends people to practice depleted keys repeatedly? I've seen none. It's like people doing split runs - people do it, but that doesn't mean Blizzard necessarily likes it. Pushing mythic+ is a lot more healthy, but rerunning depleted keys seems like a unintended side effect of the current system - I severely doubt Blizz had that planned as a part of mythic+ progression.

Mythic raiders are a minority.... guess it's not worth spending time on balancing the mythic encounters and so on.

Granted, more players currently raid mythic copared to pushing high level keys -- however high end raiding is in the game since forever, whole high end dungeoneering (I'm making that an official term now!) is a recent addition to the game (for which it is quite popular mind you).

[Deleted]

just like in RL: who cares about minorities.

[david0925]

That's actually where you're wrong, in 7.2.5 they are changing it so the higher you go in level the more loot you get (20% extra loot chance per level past 15 IIRC), but that still doesn't fix the issue at hand of making pushing keys almost impossible.

to be fair, the reward given still isn't worth it.

You can either run a 15 twice for 6 pieces of loot or you can run a 20 once for 4 pieces of loot. I don't think I need to really discuss which one is more time efficient or safer.

Honestly what they should have done is take their lovechild Titanforge and increase the chance of that happening the higher key you did, but hey apparently that's a foreign concept too.

[Hctaz]

yes I would say that, because Majority rules.

That's an absolutely shit way to make sense of things. That's exactly how slavery happened. That's why women couldn't vote for so long. You're one of those "Well I'm in the majority so we can oppress the minority cuz we're the majority and we rule" people I guess. That's such a backwards way of thinking. The majority want the highway so it'll be built but you don't have to shit on the people who don't want it built. You can come to a compromise which is beneficial to both parties though still inconveniences the smaller party. Do you want a highway over your house? Not really. But too bad you either get that or move. But it's still better than just forcing them to move even if they wouldn't mind compromising.

- - - Updated - - -

Mythic raiders are a minority.... guess it's not worth spending time on balancing the mythic encounters and so on.

Granted, more players currently raid mythic copared to pushing high level keys -- however high end raiding is in the game since forever, whole high end dungeoneering (I'm making that an official term now!) is a recent addition to the game (for which it is quite popular mind you).

Don't say stuff like that. They're going to agree with you "Duh! Mythic raiders don't need balance! They're wasting their time with that stupid difficulty they should just make more bosses for me to have fun with for 3 weeks!"

[Nairesha]

Question:

With 7.2.5 coming Tuesday/Wednesday - will the items from Myth+ (and the weekly chest) already be up to 930? Or will this come a week later with Sargeras?

[Bladesyphon]

I don't think only insanely high level runners are affected by this. Do people who run lower levels not wish to rerun a dungeon a second time trying to make the timer?

It's a pain in the ass to find a group to run a depleted keystone with you if you fail, the group you're with bails, and you're left staring dejectedly at a gray keystone. That's the biggest reason Blizzard's changing this - the majority of people seem to do Mythic Keystones with PuG's, not guilds, and Blizzard's trying to make it easier for people who lose a run to be able to keep running with their keystone, rather then relying on others.

If you have a static group that's doing Keystones, then yeah, this change kind of sucks, but it also in my eyes makes it more fun as well. It adds a new level of challenge to the game, rather then letting you just bash your head against something until you win. I'd rather take that system, with the benefit of knowing if I get a group that can't do a keystone and fails, my stone isn't going to be fucked the rest of the week because I can't find someone to run a depleted with me.

This change really gives me an incentive to get back into Keystones, and push further each week even if I fail, since I know I'm still going to walk away with a new keystone one way or the other.

[Sturmcantor]

Two weeks from now, when Mythic tomb opens.

[Nairesha]

Two weeks from now, when Mythic tomb opens.

I guess that was the answer to my Mythic question ^^

[Jastall]

I don't think only insanely high level runners are affected by this. Do people who run lower levels not wish to rerun a dungeon a second time trying to make the timer?

No. Low level runners either want to get an easy key done, or do their 10 for the week for loot, with perhaps sub-10s of various flavors for more loot/AP. Certainly very few people ever finish a dungeon then go ''let's immediately do the same thing again!!''. Especially with a depleted keystone which might as well not exist for all intents and purposes.

[BiggestNoob]

No. Low level runners either want to get an easy key done, or do their 10 for the week for loot, with perhaps sub-10s of various flavors for more loot/AP. Certainly very few people ever finish a dungeon then go ''let's immediately do the same thing again!!''. Especially with a depleted keystone which might as well not exist for all intents and purposes.

Those are people who will never see a depleted keystone because you can do a 10 on any dungeon with 200k dps and with repeated deaths.

[Jastall]

Those are people who will never see a depleted keystone because you can do a 10 on any dungeon with 200k dps and with repeated deaths.

Your hyperbole aside, you'd be surprised. The vast majority of the playerbase is not composed of good players, and Blizz must design for them as well. Certainly far more than for the tiny amount of people pushing 20+ keys in a regular basis.

Albeit I certainly don't think an option to lock keystones would be a bad idea.

[Henriksson]

This thread summarizes why I stopped reading mmo-champion with some exceptions. Loud clueless opinions.

Outside of snagging the Realm First +15 Feat of Strength I never really cared for pushing high keys. It did not appeal to me what so ever. Challenge Modes however was the good stuff. Ilvl cap, no comparative rng factors(no not even soul cap can even compare to the mythic+ system), just strat and skill in the dungeon of your choice.

Anyway, they should introduce something like you suggest. It's a good idea and doesn't harm anyone else. Although the vast majority will never make use of it.

I would like it better if they introduced a system that let you push any dungeon of your choice at any level. Of course you would not recieve any loot or ap, it would be a "depleted run". Lacking better imagination, a vendor á la PTR that gives you depleted keys perhaps, if developer time is too strained.

It might attract more people to mythic+ pushing and in general make life easier for mythic+ pushers, few that they may be.

In reality though, I doubt you'd see anything to satisfy you until next expansion. Perhaps something in Argus patch.

Good luck bois

[Jimson]

Those are people who will never see a depleted keystone because you can do a 10 on any dungeon with 200k dps and with repeated deaths.

You can do any level key with repeated deaths, so I'm not sure why that's an issue.

200k DPS is pretty low, so unless your tank/healer are prepared to carry 3 terribad DPS it's going to be a long slog. Of course this is MMO-C, where everyone is a 915+ 10/10 mythic raider, so no one here should have that problem.

[BiggestNoob]

You can do any level key with repeated deaths, so I'm not sure why that's an issue.

200k DPS is pretty low, so unless your tank/healer are prepared to carry 3 terribad DPS it's going to be a long slog. Of course this is MMO-C, where everyone is a 915+ 10/10 mythic raider, so no one here should have that problem.

You can't repeatedly wipe or have people constantly die in higher keys. It's like in mythic raid progression having 4 people die at 80% on the boss is a guaranteed wipe unless the boss is horribly undertuned, but in normal or LFR if half of your raid dies at 80% you still kill the boss.

And yes, 200k is low, that's the point. Almost every spec in the game can do > 300k at 880 ilvl just by spamming a filler with minimal else which means any group that has people pressing a button every GCD can do a 10 or lower in time currently, especially as there's only a handful of mechanics in dungeons which will kill you at that level. The only reason you see low depleted keys is because people leave or because people who don't actually want to do M+ go and do it and don't even try / give up.