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  1. #21
    Herald of the Titans Maruka's Avatar
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    Sure if you are smart and talking to someone smart.

  2. #22
    Of course. Maybe not on an internet forum such as this but discussions are an important part of any democracy.
    Last edited by Aggrophobic; 2017-06-10 at 12:21 PM.

  3. #23
    Banned JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by piethepiegod View Post
    I've never been able to understand the whole left right thing or why people seem to freak out about politics.
    They are just definitions of where you are on the spectrum.

  4. #24
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrak View Post
    They are just definitions of where you are on the spectrum.
    ya i don't get the whole spectrum thing never have.

  5. #25
    Banned Jayburner's Avatar
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    Gilrak lol

  6. #26
    Banned JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by piethepiegod View Post
    ya i don't get the whole spectrum thing never have.
    Well, its not that hard to learn what the difference between left vs right wing economics are, and the libertarian vs authoritarian scale is even easier.

    Pretty much all political parties fit on it.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by piethepiegod View Post
    ya i don't get the whole spectrum thing never have.
    it's basically like this:
    in the US especially (and other countries as well but i can only speak from experience with US politics) you have two ways of addressing the organization and government of human society.
    the false dichotomy presented by many people is that these are two equally valid ways of doing it that are just squabbling over tactics.
    the reality is that it breaks down more like this:
    one side is saying "hey since we're bothering to have a civilization maybe we should give everyone access to health care. what's the best way to go about achieving that?"
    and in response the other side is saying "lynch all the niggers! praise jesus!" and shooting their guns in the air.

    this is fundamentally what the political spectrum is all about - on the one hand you have people at least ostensibly trying to figure out how to organize human civilization in a way that more or less benefits the most amount of people possible, and on the other hand you have people trying to codify "i get to ejaculate on your face" as a system of government.

    as for the question in the OP:
    i'd say it depends on your definition of "productive"
    if you mean "changing the minds of someone who is wrong in their view of the world" then no, because political and religious belief are usually pretty immune to logic.
    but, i've found political debate to be extremely productive in terms of making me evaluate and scrutinize my own opinions and really peg down exactly how to express those ideas in a coherent way, which has on occasion made me modify or alter my thinking about something once i had to get it out of my own head.

  8. #28
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Not really, or at least not without there being mutual respect between the two individuals having the conversation.

    Communication, actual person to person communication requires some degree of human connection that lets a civil discussion commence.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  9. #29
    only with people that support the same things as you do.

  10. #30
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malkiah View Post
    it's basically like this:
    in the US especially (and other countries as well but i can only speak from experience with US politics) you have two ways of addressing the organization and government of human society.
    the false dichotomy presented by many people is that these are two equally valid ways of doing it that are just squabbling over tactics.
    the reality is that it breaks down more like this:
    one side is saying "hey since we're bothering to have a civilization maybe we should give everyone access to health care. what's the best way to go about achieving that?"
    and in response the other side is saying "lynch all the niggers! praise jesus!" and shooting their guns in the air.


    this is fundamentally what the political spectrum is all about - on the one hand you have people at least ostensibly trying to figure out how to organize human civilization in a way that more or less benefits the most amount of people possible, and on the other hand you have people trying to codify "i get to ejaculate on your face" as a system of government.

    as for the question in the OP:
    i'd say it depends on your definition of "productive"
    if you mean "changing the minds of someone who is wrong in their view of the world" then no, because political and religious belief are usually pretty immune to logic.
    but, i've found political debate to be extremely productive in terms of making me evaluate and scrutinize my own opinions and really peg down exactly how to express those ideas in a coherent way, which has on occasion made me modify or alter my thinking about something once i had to get it out of my own head.
    i'm not sure stuff like this helps.....

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by piethepiegod View Post
    i'm not sure stuff like this helps.....
    no, it really doesn't help at all when you're trying to come up with a way to advance the species and a huge segment of your population is having a tantrum and shitting themselves and you have to clean it up, but that's the reality of the world around us.

    this isn't a subject that can be debated or discussed on the merits of fact, any more than you can debate the merits of the earth being round or gravity existing based on facts: the facts are in, and reality has spoken - one set of facts are correct and consistent with the observable world, and one set of opinions are not.

    you can try and play the moore/coulter fallacy if you wish (saying that both sides are 'equally bad' or that there is no standing to make a declaration that one ideology has an objectively more successful record) but this trying to argue the earth is flat or saying that global temperature is based on how close we are to the sun - it's an argument based on unreasonable, irrational, and factually inaccurate claims.

  12. #32
    I think that person's core political ideology is based on their personality. No mater how logical you make something seem, people will not change their minds far from their core beliefs. I don't think conservative people will ever agree with a liberal's ideology and vice verse. People believe what their family believes until they learn more about themselves. Then they believe based on their true nature. My mom's side of the family were old Irish (American) union democrat's. My dad's side of the family were wasp'y religious republicans. I never could bring myself to believe that trickle-down economics, deregulation and religious ideals are good ideas. I would think that most conservatives probably feel the same about liberal ideas. You got to ask yourself if you really think a political idea is really good, or do you just think it is because you are programed too.

  13. #33
    Shouldn't this be in the politics sub-forum? Fucking pseudo-intellectuals parroting other people is not something I want to see. That's why I have the politics filter turned off.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by LMuhlen View Post
    Of course it can!! Are you stupid???

    No, he is jaylock.
    OP: yes it can.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayburner View Post
    I don't know if its possible. Seems like every conversation ends up with one side calling the other side 'stupid' or some other name.
    Not in this forum.

    You have a lot of terrible discussions with terrible people if you've never had a productive political discussion.

  16. #36
    Political discussions these days are mostly "I'm right, you're wrong"... Throwing insults at each other. Pointing hypocrisies out about each other. Exaggerating about the bad in those who have different political ideologies than you. I rarely if ever see any political discussions that are productive.

    We need moderates to become the vocal majority. It shouldn't be acceptable to be nasty. There is so much negativity coming out of the right and the left that it takes away from any of the valid points they make. In many cases neither side is right and the truly correct answer is somewhere in the middle, but no one wants to admit that because it would be a sign of weakness. And to people who take this stuff so seriously, they want more than anything to be right, even when they aren't. It's kind of like how both the right and the left are declaring victory on each other after the Comey information just came out.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayburner View Post
    I don't know if its possible. Seems like every conversation ends up with one side calling the other side 'stupid' or some other name.
    You know, before the alt right and right wing populists infested the western democracies, there actually was a peaceful and intelligent way of communication, even between political enemies.

    Since right wing populism came along, it is not about politics anymore. It is about racism, xenophobia and hatred against those who think different. Populism and its apologists infact poisoned the political discourse at a large degree, also they replaced objective discussions by insults and denounciations. They damage democracy beyond believe.

    Social media accelerated that. By locking people into their filter bubbles without the need to face critical points of view, as social media only serves what you want to read.

    Add to that permanent ongoing disinformation and propaganda, and you get the toxic kind of politics the populists abuse for their sake.
    Last edited by mmoc903ad35b4b; 2017-06-09 at 11:58 PM.

  18. #38
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malkiah View Post
    no, it really doesn't help at all when you're trying to come up with a way to advance the species and a huge segment of your population is having a tantrum and shitting themselves and you have to clean it up, but that's the reality of the world around us.

    this isn't a subject that can be debated or discussed on the merits of fact, any more than you can debate the merits of the earth being round or gravity existing based on facts: the facts are in, and reality has spoken - one set of facts are correct and consistent with the observable world, and one set of opinions are not.

    you can try and play the moore/coulter fallacy if you wish (saying that both sides are 'equally bad' or that there is no standing to make a declaration that one ideology has an objectively more successful record) but this trying to argue the earth is flat or saying that global temperature is based on how close we are to the sun - it's an argument based on unreasonable, irrational, and factually inaccurate claims.
    I would say if someone doesn't see their political positions as JUST political positions, but instead sees them as part of an Arc of History, that they are advancing the whole of humanity, then it will be difficult.

    At that point it becomes more akin to a theological debate between two theologians from two different religions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  19. #39
    Herald of the Titans Will's Avatar
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    Yeah there are loads of sensible political debates. In the UK it makes popular TV. Take shows like question time. You can youtube some of the episodes if you want. America has its share of sensible political debates too, but in general you guys are - on average - way way more childish when it comes to politics.

  20. #40
    Banned Blue Minuteman's Avatar
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    They sure can: when authoritarian extremists aren't in the conversation.

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