Frost vs Unholy 7.2.5

[Deleted]

If you're trying to legitimately use "data" that actually shows unholy t20 being WORSE than t19, I don't know what to say to you dude. Why would that make any sense at all from a design perspective? Just think about it.

I'm not a simc developer, as i wrote. The point though is: Frost T20 looks very promising.

And 12% is really strong. I am not into unholy theory crafting, as i wrote several times. Just imported a good unholy dk and changed set bonus.

And NEVER EVER compare absolute values between different specs.

[spanishninja]

I'm not a simc developer, as i wrote. The point though is: Frost T20 looks very promising.

And 12% is really strong. I am not into unholy theory crafting, as i wrote several times. Just imported a good unholy dk and changed set bonus.

And NEVER EVER compare absolute values between different specs.

I'm not talking about comparing frost with unholy. I'm talking about the unholy sims you put together that show T20 being worse than T19 by 15k. You don't really need to be a sim developer to realize there's something fishy about that data. So if that is the information you have to go by to show that unholy isn't getting buffed significantly, then the argument is based on faulty data.

[Deleted]

Sims should only be used as a guide to gearing or talent choices, but should never be used as the holy grail. The same can be said of warcraft logs too. In this expansion its become incredibly difficult to predict my dps outcome on any fight against other frost dks in my guild. So for example on a 2 minute chrono fight, I could optimize my gear for it and push my concordance trait up (57 atm) and have all the good relics, but I could still be out damaged by my fellow frost guildies where RNG has been kinder to them, despite on paper their characters being weaker since they have less blast radius relics, lower ilevel and lower concordance. However, at the same time when RNG is kind to me when we're all whoring dps and adds are involved, I tend to outshine them, occasionally. On heroic farm nights, who comes out on top in initial bursts in the first 30 seconds, varies as well. In long mythic fights (augur) the more aggressive with the least amount of targeted debuffs normally comes out ahead.

So unless we have the same horrendous scenario at the start of 7.1.5 where frost was the number 1 melee spec and unholy being in the dumpster (unholy is now last but you can still pump out reasonable damage and enough to clear mythic content) the current builds and changes to both specs and their respective performance should entirely depend on mechanics, aggressive gameplay with some added good rng to sweeten the kill.

Well frost is very RNG dependant. Trinket procs, Unholy Strength procs, legendary belt procs, Runic Empowerment procs. An initial breath can last 55sec or > 90sec for me, depending on proc luck. And it can be much stronger with those procs mentioned (15% strength, ETW procs, belt procs).

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I'm not talking about comparing frost with unholy. I'm talking about the unholy sims you put together that show T20 being worse than T19 by 15k. You don't really need to be a sim developer to realize there's something fishy about that data. So if that is the information you have to go by to show that unholy isn't getting buffed significantly, then the argument is based on faulty data.

Then focus on frost data about T20 because that seems to be absolutely valid. And i responded to this:

The only way a breath build would be competitive in ToS is if Blizz decided last moment to undo the nerfs and add better tier bonuses like the ones that were originally in place.

I regret posting unholy data because some people here seem to be really pissed that it doesn't sim as great as people believe it to be. I don't know enough about this so i'm the wrong person to talk about unholy. I was focussing on frost.

[spanishninja]

Well frost is very RNG dependant. Trinket procs, Unholy Strength procs, legendary belt procs, Runic Empowerment procs. An initial breath can last 55sec or > 90sec for me, depending on proc luck. And it can be much stronger with those procs mentioned (15% strength, ETW procs, belt procs).

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Then focus on frost data because that seems to be absolutely valid. And it is indicating that frost might look pretty strong.

if your goal is to look at the % buffs coming to frost and unholy in T20 relative to T19, you kind of have to pay attention to the unholy part too, lol. Without having a good idea of where unholy will sim with the new tier you can't really say that the spec is buffed less than it is for frost, because you simply would have no data to back up anything you're saying. Right now it looks like you're saying "hey, you're gaining 50k dps or so going from T19 frost to T20 frost, so that is better than unholy, which is going DOWN 15k dps going from T19 to T20.".

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Well frost is very RNG dependant. Trinket procs, Unholy Strength procs, legendary belt procs, Runic Empowerment procs. An initial breath can last 55sec or > 90sec for me, depending on proc luck. And it can be much stronger with those procs mentioned (15% strength, ETW procs, belt procs).

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Then focus on frost data about T20 because that seems to be absolutely valid. And i responded to this:


I regret posting unholy data because some people here seem to be really pissed that it doesn't sim as great as people believe it to be. I don't know enough about this so i'm the wrong person to talk about unholy. I was focussing on frost.

This entire thread is about Frost vs Unholy for 7.2.5. Any discussion would kind of have to involve unholy changes, won't it? And I don't think the issue here is the unholy numbers being not as high. It's that they're not accurate (based on what you posted). I completely believe what you're saying about frost gaining quite a lot of DPS with the new tier. That's all great. But do you really know how much unholy is gaining? If not then how can you comment on which spec is better for 7.2.5?

[Deleted]

if your goal is to look at the % buffs coming to frost and unholy in T20 relative to T19, you kind of have to pay attention to the unholy part too, lol. Without having a good idea of where unholy will sim with the new tier you can't really say that the spec is buffed less than it is for frost, because you simply would have no data to back up anything you're saying. Right now it looks like you're saying "hey, you're gaining 50k dps or so going from T19 frost to T20 frost, so that is better than unholy, which is going DOWN 15k dps going from T19 to T20.".

Well perhaps it is like that and we don't know yet? You have better data for validation?

I believe Horn of Winter always simmed a little bit better than it performed. But that's a sidenote.

I am just saying: don't write off frost, it might have some potential people don't see yet, as damage shifts from Howling Blast away towards Pillars Burst windows.

Wait 3 weeks until many people got their T20 setbonus, we had 1 or 2 weeks of TOS and then you can tell which one is better.

(Or you can't because it varies from fight to fight).

[Deleted]

Unholy is still a shit show compared to frost. Use your logic, just because frost got a little nerf does not mean unholy automatically is the better spec. Unholy is still a train wreck and frost will still be the go to spec.

[spanishninja]

Well perhaps it is like that and we don't know yet? You have better data for validation?

I believe Horn of Winter always simmed a little bit better than it performed. But that's a sidenote.

I am just saying: don't write off frost, it might have some potential people don't see yet, as damage shifts from Howling Blast away towards Pillars Burst windows.

Wait 3 weeks until many people got their T20 setbonus, we had 1 or 2 weeks of TOS and then you can tell which one is better.

(Or you can't because it varies from fight to fight).

if you aren't sure yet, then don't blatantly make statements about how frost will obviously be better in 7.2.5. It's fine to not know. Plenty of time to gather data once people get full t20.

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Unholy is still a shit show compared to frost. Use your logic, just because frost got a little nerf does not mean unholy automatically is the better spec. Unholy is still a train wreck and frost will still be the go to spec.

logic is based on data. there's no 7.2.5 data available on this yet.

[Deleted]

This entire thread is about Frost vs Unholy for 7.2.5. Any discussion would kind of have to involve unholy changes, won't it? And I don't think the issue here is the unholy numbers being not as high. It's that they're not accurate (based on what you posted). I completely believe what you're saying about frost gaining quite a lot of DPS with the new tier. That's all great. But do you really know how much unholy is gaining? If not then how can you comment on which spec is better for 7.2.5?

The whole thing here was about statements like:

"Unholy gets good tier and new legendaries, frost gets nerfed, BOS isn't usable in TOS, so Unholy is better."

I am saying:

- Frost is currently very powerful on live servers, so it needs no buffs.
- BOS doesn't need to last 50 or 80 sec to be strong,it can be 30 sec short and still be great.
- T20 looks great in sims, not bad at all. It seems to be so strong that i'd expect a nerf to T20 more likely.
- Without T19 and with Horn of Winter instead of FF, Howling Blast dropped to 12.5% of my dps. So 170/142 * 12.5% = 15.2%(2.7% gain), so BR nerf and 3% buff equal to about zero dps change. So no nerf at all when we adapt our talents and setup for TOS.

Overall, frost looks absolutely fine. Now let's wait how encounter design really works out.

[spanishninja]

The whole thing here was about statements like:

"Unholy gets good tier and new legendaries, frost gets nerfed, so Unholy is better."

I am saying: Frost is currently very powerful on live servers, so it needs no buffs. BOS doesn't need to last 50 or 80 sec to be strong,it can be 30 sec short and still be great. And T20 looks great in sims.

Actually, when i resimmed stuff, without T19 and with Horn of Winter instead of FF, Howling Blast dropped to 12.5% of my dps. So 170/142 * 12.5% = 15.2%, so BR nerf and 3% buff equal to about zero dps change...

Well, technically I'm not one of the ones who ever said that unholy was going to be better than frost necessarily. I have said that it will be more competitive for ToS than it is now. For a real comparison, real data has to be collected.

[Deleted]

if you aren't sure yet, then don't blatantly make statements about how frost will obviously be better in 7.2.5.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_perception

I never said that. I have no clue why you think i said this.

IF you look at my responses, i wrote 10 times:

"Noone knows yet what is better, there is no way to tell yet which one is better".

But reading stuff like "Frost is bad in TOS because it's nerfed, set bonus is weak and you can't use BOS in TOS" makes me kind of angry. Because it's not backed up by sims or data.

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Well, technically I'm not one of the ones who ever said that unholy was going to be better than frost necessarily. I have said that it will be more competitive for ToS than it is now. For a real comparison, real data has to be collected.

Agreed.

[spanishninja]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_perception

I never said that. I have no clue why you think i said this.

IF you look at my responses, i wrote 10 times:

"Noone knows yet what is better, there is no way to tell yet which one is better".

But reading stuff like "Frost is bad in TOS because it's nerfed, set bonus is weak and you can't use BOS in TOS" makes me kind of angry. Because it's not backed up by sims or data.

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Agreed.

well I mean, you did say:


"I don't know if simc is wrong, but frost T20 seems to be stronger than Unholy T20 from a first look according to Simc. "

[Deleted]

well I mean, you did say:


"I don't know if simc is wrong, but frost T20 seems to be stronger than Unholy T20 from a first look according to Simc. "

Well i think it is a very careful statement considering the highlighted parts. It wouldn't be the first time players over- or undervalue set bonuses by doing some feelycraft.

I didnt write "T20 frost is better than T20 unholy", i referred to todays newest simc version. APL changes could be missing.

[Lucrece]

The point is, unholy will be playable without feeling like it's at a huge penalty, which is a good thing.

Remember the beginning of the xpac when everyone had bandwagoned into unholy and frost was the redheaded stepchild?

It's better when people have options.

Frost will probably be preferred for progression simply because Sindragosa's Fury and burst damage in general is a lot better than dot classes. DoT classes can pad well but unless they're monstrously overtuned, they bring less benefit than a burst spec.

Frost is also privileged in higher m+ (whereas unholy does better the larger the pulls get).

Personally, I like frost's simplicity, and rune regen on frost just feels so much better compared to unholy (which always feels slow). I honestly find black claws annoying as I have set up my soul reaper with 6+ wounds in preparation for Apocalypse only for the damn abomination to take off wounds under 6 the moment I pop apocalypse.

Frost's cd's also favor cleaving/aoe as pillar of frost applies to all types of damage while apocalypse ghouls and gargoyle tend to focus one target at a time and don't empower your aoe abilities (granted, the unholy artifact tries to address this with exploding ghouls, but the problem is the damage is backloaded so the target might die before this event even happens).

[Deleted]

Frost cleave/aoe is inconsistent, now that we lose 20% increased chance on Rime, it will be even more random. I was playing frost since EN(Cenarius M). I do believe that UH will be much better now, frost will not handle those mechanics with BoS and bosses design, just look at streams, time to switch.

[Indil]

The point is, unholy will be playable without feeling like it's at a huge penalty, which is a good thing.

Remember the beginning of the xpac when everyone had bandwagoned into unholy and frost was the redheaded stepchild?

It's better when people have options.

Frost will probably be preferred for progression simply because Sindragosa's Fury and burst damage in general is a lot better than dot classes. DoT classes can pad well but unless they're monstrously overtuned, they bring less benefit than a burst spec.

Frost is also privileged in higher m+ (whereas unholy does better the larger the pulls get).

Personally, I like frost's simplicity, and rune regen on frost just feels so much better compared to unholy (which always feels slow). I honestly find black claws annoying as I have set up my soul reaper with 6+ wounds in preparation for Apocalypse only for the damn abomination to take off wounds under 6 the moment I pop apocalypse.

Frost's cd's also favor cleaving/aoe as pillar of frost applies to all types of damage while apocalypse ghouls and gargoyle tend to focus one target at a time and don't empower your aoe abilities (granted, the unholy artifact tries to address this with exploding ghouls, but the problem is the damage is backloaded so the target might die before this event even happens).

#showtooltip
/cast [nopet] Raise Dead
/cast Dark Transformation
/cast [pet] Blighted Rune Weapon

Black Claw Fixed.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Remember the beginning of the xpac when everyone had bandwagoned into unholy and frost was the redheaded stepchild?

People didn't bandwagon towards it, they were forced to play it because frost was flat out broken. It was probably the best everyone played unholy as well, because apparently only if not a single person plays the spec blizzard notices that shit is broken.

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Frost cleave/aoe is inconsistent, now that we lose 20% increased chance on Rime, it will be even more random. I was playing frost since EN(Cenarius M). I do believe that UH will be much better now, frost will not handle those mechanics with BoS and bosses design, just look at streams, time to switch.

Frost AoE will probably go back to require you to skill FSc. While that will cost us versatility for most standard situations, it also means in specified AoE situations frost AoE might actually be a bit better now, with it proccing TB and HB. Without FSc frost AoE is kinda down the shitter now with the helm being destroyed, the artifact trait being nerfed by 40% and us leaving T19 behind. Time to Ching-Ching-Ching again, it also comes with the bonus of applying RI on all targets und buffing our HB dmg back up, it's actually quite the nice synergy there.

[Deleted]

People didn't bandwagon towards it, they were forced to play it because frost was flat out broken. It was probably the best everyone played unholy as well, because apparently only if not a single person plays the spec blizzard notices that shit is broken.

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Frost AoE will probably go back to require you to skill FSc. While that will cost us versatility for most standard situations, it also means in specified AoE situations frost AoE might actually be a bit better now, with it proccing TB and HB. Without FSc frost AoE is kinda down the shitter now with the helm being destroyed, the artifact trait being nerfed by 40% and us leaving T19 behind. Time to Ching-Ching-Ching again, it also comes with the bonus of applying RI on all targets und buffing our HB dmg back up, it's actually quite the nice synergy there.

Well i dont think so. Gathering storm is strong and frost DKs have many other sources outside of HB like RW, BOS and SF. You will also have stronger Pillars, so all other abilities will hit Harder too.

About FsC: thats gotta be discussed. But i'd say for massive AOE metres padding is UH better.

But fights like this are rare.

[Exotath]

Be great if Death's March had been changed to reduce the CD on Garg/Dark Arbiter rather than DnD so we didn't have to still farm CoF.

But that'd likely make heads spin.

[Cosmic Janitor]

AoE is mostly relevant for M+, it wasn't significant besides meter padding for a while now. In M+ it is a concern though.

For Raiding and some passive cleave GS is great, for proper AoE though.. not so much imho, my AoE DPS was way more influenced by the amount of HB proccs than GS, especially since most AoE for larger packs is more on the burst side (which makes sense since you can't really have a ton of adds that are super strong and enduring for long times). When we talk about things that live longer we are more in the cleave territory, where BoS is obviously great and GS shines more thanks to HRW. But this is where unholy is strong as well now with the DoT buffed by EF and soon the very strong option for the legendary ring as well.

[Deleted]

Well i dont think so. Gathering storm is strong and frost DKs have many other sources outside of HB like RW, BOS and SF. You will also have stronger Pillars, so all other abilities will hit Harder too.

About FsC: thats gotta be discussed. But i'd say for massive AOE metres padding is UH better.

But fights like this are rare.

Picking FSc you decrease your ST dmg, by a lot. It will have to be balanced somehow, maybe new ring will help?

As for now it really hard to say which spec will do better on certain fights, but basing on only current state and information about encounters we can guess who will be a little/a lot better.

Of course we dont know abilities overlaps, our line-ups etc so its just a guess.

1. Goroth pure single target -> we will have to move out with debuff outside and hide behind pillars. Clawing shadows build might win there.
2. Harjatan->move out with debuff and nuke adds. Ring+bracers/KJ will rock here for UH. Frost with FSc might do well here as well. (On mythic there is even more adds)
3.Mistressz'ine - it will be nightmare for every melee spec, lots of shit and stepping out -> again, UH with CS might be better here.
4.Sisters of the moon -> mostly patchwerk fight, there is movement, but still you can pretty move and attack boss, good fight for melee
5.Desolate host -> cleave fight
6.Demonic Inqusition -> we will Atrigan->Belac->Atrigan->Belac and moving into the cage so kind of target switch, imo frost does not have problem with it. On mythic encounter, everytime someone leave cage, add will spawn. It will depend on strategy. People will enter and leave one by one or whole group at the same time and then CC chain into nuke. Both specs might be really good there.
7/8. Maiden and Avatar are single target fight, movement as always, it will depend how often you will have to move out, when, and if overlaps will interupt your burst.
9. KJ -idk

In the end it all comes to your raid composition and skill, but im betting unholy will be better(still, i prefer to paly frost)