Munkkys Vengeance Demon Hunter Guide UPDATED 7.3

[Munkky]

20% up time means nothing outside of the DPS gain through RS. There is literally no fight in the history of WoW where you're taking constant dangerous physical damage the entire fight.

This is called the dps parse lord build, not a viable tanking progression build. SB is 100% always reliable DR exactly when you need it. Extra DS up time is usually wasted outside of the DPS gain through RS.

LR is a dead talent outside of some cheese situation it ain't getting picked by anyone with a clue.

This is why you can't tank theory craft simply by the numbers like a DPS class. 20% doesn't mean what you think it does.

I've tried to leave you alone and be somewhat friendly. Now you are trying to simply take shots without knowing what you are talking about. There are times that you can and will use it defensively. After the little raid testing I have done, there are at the very least, 2/9 fights in ToS that you will most likely use it on because they are mostly physical damage and it is fairly constant, so you will want more than the 40-50% baseline you would have normally. I'm not saying that it will "always" be used, but to blatantly say that its strictly a dps whoring talent is simply wrong.

[Tech614]

After the little raid testing I have done

I wasn't aware they tested LFR recently on the PTR.

Infraction: Flaming

[lovingbenji]

Official and final patch note :

Damage of all abilities, including talents, increased by 15%.
Blade Turning redesigned: Parrying an attack increases your Pain generation by 20% for 5 seconds.
Demon Spikes can only be extended to a maximum of three times its base duration.
Demonic Infusion cooldown reduced to 1.5 minutes (was 2 minutes).
Feast of Souls total healing increased by 20%.
Fracture now costs 30 Pain (was 20 Pain).
Immolation Aura periodic damage increased by an additional 22%.
Last Resort will not absorb a killing blow of more than 200% of the player’s maximum health.
Lesser Soul Fragment generation from Shear has been increased by 10%.
Soul Cleave now costs 25 to 50 Pain (was 30 to 60), and now heals for 6.6 times Attack Power per 25 Pain spent.
Spirit Bomb redesigned: Consume all Soul Fragments within 25 yards and then explode, afflicting nearby enemies with Frailty for 20 seconds and damaging them for 3.0x Attack Power fire per fragment. You heal for 20% of all damage you deal to enemies with Frailty.
When Demon Spikes is activated and a Demon Spikes buff is already present, the values of the two buffs are now correctly averaged.
When Soul Fragments are created that exceed the cap of 5 active fragments, the oldest fragment is now automatically consumed if it is within 60 yards of the Demon Hunter. If it is more than 60 yds from the Demon Hunter, it despawns.

[Munkky]

I wasn't aware they tested LFR recently on the PTR.

Quality response. Thank you for taking the time to make it.

[lovingbenji]

Regarding the final patch note any change in the recommended builts ?

[Munkky]

Regarding the final patch note any change in the recommended builts ?

The shear change is the only one new on there. There will be some changes though I'm not ready to put out my opinion yet.

[datrunk2dunk]

I wasn't aware they tested LFR recently on the PTR.

Infraction: Flaming

Out of curiosity, why exactly does that count as a flame?? I mean i can see how his responses have been and they havent been the best, but why that post in particular? XD

I AM NOT Tech614 before anyone suggests that.

[Munkky]

Out of curiosity, why exactly does that count as a flame?? I mean i can see how his responses have been and they havent been the best, but why that post in particular? XD

I AM NOT Tech614 before anyone suggests that.

I didn't report him, but tbh, this isn't the first time he's done that. He's been doing it for a year so it's kind of cumulative experiences.

[Nahela]

Going to sound like a broken record, but I'm really disappointed that they haven't communicated at all about any of the design around Vengeance this patch. Primarily that I really just don't understand the intended design behind the new Spirit Bomb being a thing, but not being a Soul Cleave replacement.

It seems like ultimately it will come down to the current 'standard' bursty defensive play (i.e. Soul Cleave/Soul Barrier heavy) and a focus on smoothing/pseudo-damage reduction via constant trickle healing (i.e. Spirit Bomb/Fracture heavy), it's just still bizarre to me that the latter will forego numerous traits and the set bonuses in most cases.

While Last Resort will no longer be able to ignore some mechanics with the damage cap on it, I still like it for early progression, but it should probably have a passive bonus attached to it nowadays.

[Orloth]

Out of curiosity, why exactly does that count as a flame?? I mean i can see how his responses have been and they havent been the best, but why that post in particular? XD

I AM NOT Tech614 before anyone suggests that.

Because it was the closest thing I could find to "posting with the sole reason of insulting someone", and it seemed like bad form to me. He was one of the ones that tried to organize some sort of uprising against Munkky a few months back if I recall correctly.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Out of curiosity, why exactly does that count as a flame?? I mean i can see how his responses have been and they havent been the best, but why that post in particular? XD

I AM NOT Tech614 before anyone suggests that.

Tbh, I've had Tech614 on ignore for some time. I don't even remember the original thread that made me decide he wasn't worth conversing with, but it was something where I felt he was being overly argumentative and derisive. I know Munkky puts a lot of work into the DH guides, and there don't seem to be a lot of other people offering to do them, so we should be respectful and appreciative even when we do occasionally disagree.

[GoKs]

Tbh, I've had Tech614 on ignore for some time. I don't even remember the original thread that made me decide he wasn't worth conversing with, but it was something where I felt he was being overly argumentative and derisive. I know Munkky puts a lot of work into the DH guides, and there don't seem to be a lot of other people offering to do them, so we should be respectful and appreciative even when we do occasionally disagree.

I dont know how Munkky feels but I really dont think he will mind if people have different opinions as he does, as long as they can back up their statements, I think he would appreciate it more then anything else. I know I would. It is a guide to help people, and if more people give input and brainstorm, it would make it much easier for Munkky and also allot more accurate (not saying it is not accurate, because I am way to dumb and lazy to think for myself, I just use the guides, so I take them as gospel).

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

I dont know how Munkky feels but I really dont think he will mind if people have different opinions as he does, as long as they can back up their statements, I think he would appreciate it more then anything else. I know I would. It is a guide to help people, and if more people give input and brainstorm, it would make it much easier for Munkky and also allot more accurate (not saying it is not accurate, because I am way to dumb and lazy to think for myself, I just use the guides, so I take them as gospel).

I've actually seen Munkky be very open to constructive feedback when it is offered respectfully with good explanation and/or data to back it up. I have seen that both here and in Discord.

[Darkmech]

I just started playing a Veng DH again (Hadn't really bothered since Beta).
Main reason - I wanted the mage tower veng weaps - (Ps - it's stupidly easier on a DH than a DK =p)

I just read over the last few pages and posts from Tech164.
Just wanted to say cheers to Munkky. Really simple, and well written guides that allowed me to pick DH tanking up again quickly.
Hopefully you never let people like that stop you. You do a great job breaking it all down for the mathless minded like myself!

[Narabug]

Because it was the closest thing I could find to "posting with the sole reason of insulting someone", and it seemed like bad form to me. He was one of the ones that tried to organize some sort of uprising against Munkky a few months back if I recall correctly.

Nah, he's not trying to organize anything, nor has he been a part of anything. He just trolls the forums to find something that can set him off emotionally and responds to it emotionally, it seems. It's probably in his best personal interest to separate himself from the emotional roller coaster he's created for himself.

Going to sound like a broken record, but I'm really disappointed that they haven't communicated at all about any of the design around Vengeance this patch. Primarily that I really just don't understand the intended design behind the new Spirit Bomb being a thing, but not being a Soul Cleave replacement.

Spirit Bomb is really odd to me as well because it was already in a competitive place. The frustrating thing that I see (and surely many other DH) is that there were countless suggestions and improvements that were made by the community, and nearly all of them were ignored. The only thing that I see in the notes is that they are acknowledging low VDH DPS.

Granted, the changes are definitely a buff across the board, but they seem to completely ignore the player perspective - a trend that is becoming increasingly common in the game design. I imagine some person at Blizzard sitting there saying 'Damnit, why can't they all click these buttons in this order!' and changing abilities to encourage us all to ride the ride as he designed it rather than as we do.

[lovingbenji]

Patch is tomorrow, any update on the new recommended specs ?

[Tech614]

Nah, he's not trying to organize anything, nor has he been a part of anything. He just trolls the forums to find something that can set him off emotionally and responds to it emotionally, it seems. It's probably in his best personal interest to separate himself from the emotional roller coaster he's created for himself.

You where right, and then you lost me at trolling and emotional.

I just call what I see. Munkky does a good job maintaining the guide for the most part, but it is done largely in part by information that gets relayed to him and not his own testing. It's been that was since it existed. I don't have a problem with him personally or what he does or doesn't do, just merely pointing out the opinion of someone from a progression standpoint who doesn't do progression is very minor to me in a snarky manor. By all means he should be praised, as most don't have the time or effort to maintain guides across all sites. Just stating the reality.

[daiceman]

You where right, and then you lost me at trolling and emotional.

I just call what I see. Munkky does a good job maintaining the guide for the most part, but it is done largely in part by information that gets relayed to him and not his own testing. It's been that was since it existed. I don't have a problem with him personally or what he does or doesn't do, just merely pointing out the opinion of someone from a progression standpoint who doesn't do progression is very minor to me in a snarky manor. By all means he should be praised, as most don't have the time or effort to maintain guides across all sites. Just stating the reality.

It's why I ignore parts of the guide that say feast of souls is good and last resort is not the best talent in the tier except when specing for dps.

There's still good info, you just need to read some of it with a grain of salt.

[Nahela]

I actually like Feast of Souls, but my primary focus is raid content where Burning Alive and Fallout don't shine nearly as much as in M+. I also play very defensively since I'm generally doing some form of progression.

I currently run 3121311. I switch to Soul Barrier as feels warranted, though Last Resort is still excellent for removing any surprises while the team feels out progression. Sometimes I've used Blade Turning as well for help with maximum Spikes uptime (in combination with T19), but that's been infrequent. Short of undergeared Krosus progression, I've never really felt in danger. This setup would probably still work in 7.2.5 for burstier/focused healing with the significant buff to Soul Cleave.

Post patch I'm going to be trying 3222331 most likely. Possible swap to Agonizing Flames for the first time in forever with the Immo Aura buff and theoretical lowered use of Soul Cleave. My theory here is basically focusing on soul generation with damage reduction by way of higher Painbringer uptime and basically non-stop healing income. It'll be interesting to see if this works well in practice or if the spikes in Tomb will just be too big or too frequent.

I think we might actually have a lot of wiggle room in 7.2.5 (particularly on the final row) even if there's still some glaring issues to be addressed with our talents.

[Veiled Shadow]

Possible swap to Agonizing Flames for the first time in forever with the Immo Aura buff and theoretical lowered use of Soul Cleave. My theory here is basically focusing on soul generation with damage reduction by way of higher Painbringer uptime and basically non-stop healing income. It'll be interesting to see if this works well in practice or if the spikes in Tomb will just be too big or too frequent.

Agonizing Flames is still useless for raiding - the easiest comparison is to Abyssal Strike, since both are flat AP increases. Right now Immolation Aura is 519% AP before the 9% spec modifier (we can ignore this and the 15% increase in 7.2.5 since they affect all spells equally) and in 7.2.5 this gets increased to 586% AP.

Infernal Strike, on the other hand, is 302% AP, so Abyssal Strike nets 604% AP without Flame Crash per minute, while Agonizing Flames in 7.2.5 gives 469%. Now, this calculation is done with zero haste, and AF scales with haste, but you'd need 27% average haste to break even which is unrealistic except on short fights with bloodlust. Then you add Flame Crash and Concentrated Sigils into the mix, and it should be clear that AS is simply much stronger in a sustained damage scenario. A full sigil is 365% AP, so that increases the benefit of AS to 1334% AP per minute.

The analysis above doesn't account for Fiery Demise (AS gives 1 extra Infernal Strike in that window, and you can get 2 IA into it with enough haste as well) but frankly as AS gives almost triple the benefit already it wouldn't alter the results.