Player generated loot in online games - Albion Online's idea of Black Market

[Slaughty8]

Not so long ago Albion Online developers announced an interesting feature - Black Market. The name sounds familiar to the WoW's Black Market (or any other You may think about) and one may immediately think about it's mechanic, but in case of AO's the way it works is different.

Basically the idea goes like this:
1. Players, by killing NPCs, automatically generate loot demand for items and this demand is automatically registered by the Black Market system, for example people killing spiders generate need for an unknown quantity of stuff their loot table. At the begining the loot system stockpile is empty besides money and materials. Players receive 80% of the money from loot, 20% is automatically taken by the Black Market.
2. Black Market puts new buy orders for lets say basic swords x 100, because people are killing monsters with this item in their loot table, but the stock for these is 0.
3. Players craft basic swords and sell 100 to Black Market buy orders to fullfill the order, earning money and from now on other people may loot these swords.
4. 100 Basic swords will be distributed to spiders loot table, so other players may loot them.

Basically the loot table of items is there, but before items start dropping somebody has to craft and sell these to the Black Market. The stock of items in the loost system is 0 until somebody crafts these and sells them to the loot system (aka Black Market).

Loot system has to buy a Sword/Shield/Armor etc from You in order to drop it from a monster.

Even shorter tl:dr;
Each mob has its own loottable of items it can drop and it's not 100% chance anyway. There's also a waste factor so not every item sold to Black Market will be dropped.
An example:

1. T3 mob has T3 bag in its loottable
2. each time players kill the mob, the mob checks if the item is in the stock of Black Market
3. if it is, there's a X% chance the item will be dropped
4. if the item is not in the stock or is not dropped, Black Market increases demand for the item

Do You think such model could apply to any other game? Path of Exile? Diablo? MMOs?

Keep in mind that in Albion Online items have durability and limited usage. Items can't be repaired. So for example basic sword tier 1 may last for like 1h of play, then a player needs many of these. The same applies to legendary items, but their durability is bigger. This system allows crafters to enjoy their job of creating endless supply of high quality items (epic and legendary) to the loot system.
I honestly love this kind of item limited usage system in MMOs, but they should also add unlimited usage insanely rare ones too. Imagine their price in real life money then

The whole story
Source: https://albiononline.com/en/news/vid...market-feature

We have developed an exciting feature where all item drops in PvE, from mobs and chests alike, will now be player-crafted: The Black Market! This new NPC buys items from crafters and resells them to the different factions of Albion, causing the items to appear as loot drops.

Hungry for more information? Learn everything you need to know about the Black Market from Game Director Robin Henkys in our latest video!

No time to watch the video? Here is a written summary of the new feature!
What is the Black Market?

How do you have equipment drops in a game where all items are player-crafted? The answer: have the players craft the drops!

This is where the Black Market comes into play. This new NPC can be found in Caerleon, the central city of the Royal Continent and the only city linked to the Outlands. He purchases items from players and redistributes them to the various mobs, factions and chests of Albion. They, in return, drop them to players in the open world.
How Does the Black Market Buy Items?

It is very important to note that the Black Market is not your typical merchant, as he does not have a set price per item or infinite demand.

Whenever a mob is killed, there is a chance a buy order is generated for the Black Market. Once there are a certain number of active buy orders for an item, the Black Market will start increasing the price of the item. This means that everything on the Black Market is directly linked to players’ actions in the open world.

As a crafter, you have the option to sell directly to the Black Market, or alternatively set up your own sell orders. When doing this, the Black Market will automatically purchase your item once the price has been reached.

Where is the Black Market getting its funds to purchase items in the first place? We are balancing it in such a way that the orders generated always correspond a percentage of the silver dropped by the mob. This ensures that the silver in the game stays balanced/stable. For example: If a mob normally drops 100 silver, we take 20% of that dropped silver to create the buy order in the Black Market, and the mob will instead drop 80 silver.

This means that effectively, the Black Market interacts with players the same way the player-driven markets do.
How do Drops Work?

When a mob is killed and it is supposed to drop an item, it will look through the stock of the Black Market. If the item is not in a stock, a buy order is created on the Black Market. If the item is in stock, the mob will drop the item.

An item can only drop if the Black Market has it in stock. Once an item is dropped, the amount of its stock is reduced by one.
The Black Market as an Item Sink

In Albion Online, gear constantly gets destroyed through PvP. This is especially the case for high tier items, causing lower tier items to accumulate in the economy. In order to create a genuine lower tier sink, we have made the Black Market trader somewhat corrupt. Being a shady fellow to begin with, he tends to lose items after he has bought them from players. He is especially corrupt when it comes to lower tier items, keeping a percentage them for himself and thus removing them from the game.

This will create a constant demand for lower tier items, preventing them from becoming worthless in the long run.
Other Benefits of the Black Market

Aside from including player-crafted items in PvE drops, the Black Market has several other advantages!

First of all, we can now also increase the amount of item drops in general. Previously, item drops have been very rare to non-existent, as we did not want to interfere with the player-driven economy. With the Black Market we can have a good amount of PvE drops, while not undermining the role of crafters.

Secondly, the arrival of the Black Market means we can remove the need for Essences in refining. Essences are originally introduced to the game as way to connect PvE activities and crafting, and were a rather artificial band-aid fix. As the Black Market now links PvE and crafting, we can safely remove Essences from refining. Do note that Essences will not be removed from the game, as they can still be used to craft Runes, but we will repurpose them going forward.

Lastly, we are also removing refined resources as a drop from mobs and chests. They will be replaced by player-crafted gear drops instead.

In general, the Black Market and these changes ensure that we can drop cool PvE rewards that do not compete with gathering, refining and crafting, but instead work in synergy with it.

We are all very excited about this new feature and the many opportunities it offers! What are your thoughts on the Black Market? Let us know in the comments below or on our forums.

[endersblade]

Am I the only one who has read through this twice and still confused on what the fuck this is even talking about? Maybe because I don't play the game, but this doesn't make any sense at all to me.

[prwraith]

If i'm understanding this right and frankly i don't know if I am..

•Person A puts up request for Item
•Person B accepts request
•Person B kills monsters
•Monster drops item
•Item automatically added to player A?


Seeing as I've now ready it a third time and think the above is completely wrong. Could these people have come up with a more convoluted process? Holy fuck balls.

[Slaughty8]

If i'm understanding this right and frankly i don't know if I am..

•Person A puts up request for Item
•Person B accepts request
•Person B kills monsters
•Monster drops item
•Item automatically added to player A?


Seeing as I've now ready it a third time and think the above is completely wrong. Could these people have come up with a more convoluted process? Holy fuck balls.

Wrong.
Cmon, it's easy to grasp.

Again:
1. Players, by killing NPCs, automatically generate loot demand for items and this demand is automatically registered by the Black Market system, for example people killing spiders generate need for an unknown quantity of stuff their loot table. At the begining the loot system stockpile is empty besides money and materials. Players receive 80% of the money from loot, 20% is automatically taken by the Black Market.
2. Black Market puts new buy orders for lets say basic swords x 100, because people are killing monsters with this item in their loot table, but the stock for these is 0.
3. Players craft basic swords and sell 100 to Black Market buy orders to fullfill the order, earning money and from now on other people may loot these swords.
4. 100 Basic swords will be distributed to spiders loot table, so other players may loot them.

Basically the loot table of items is there, but before items start dropping somebody has to craft and sell these to the Black Market. The stock of items in the loost system is 0 until somebody crafts these and sells them to the loot system (aka Black Market).

Loot system has to buy a Sword/Shield/Armor etc from You in order to drop it from a monster.

[Deleted]

It looks like an extremely volatile and risky system to me. If the population of the game is healthy I see no problem, but if it is not this is gonna crash and burn like the Hindenburg. The game also need to have a fine balance between people that like to craft stuff and other that focus on just combat activities.

[prwraith]

Wrong.
Cmon, it's easy to grasp.

Again:
1. Players, by killing NPCs, automatically generate loot demand for items and this demand is automatically registered by the Black Market system, for example people killing spiders generate need for an unknown quantity of stuff their loot table. At the begining the loot system stockpile is empty besides money and materials. Players receive 80% of the money from loot, 20% is automatically taken by the Black Market.
2. Black Market puts new buy orders for lets say basic swords x 100, because people are killing monsters with this item in their loot table, but the stock for these is 0.
3. Players craft basic swords and sell 100 to Black Market buy orders to fullfill the order, earning money and from now on other people may loot these swords.
4. 100 Basic swords will be distributed to spiders loot table, so other players may loot them.

Basically the loot table of items is there, but before items start dropping somebody has to craft and sell these to the Black Market. The stock of items in the loost system is 0 until somebody crafts these and sells them to the loot system (aka Black Market).

Loot system has to buy a Sword/Shield/Armor etc from You in order to drop it from a monster.

Ahhh

So unless someone crafts and sells this to the black market AH the spiders drop nothing? Not sure that's a good system.

[lawow74]

Seems like they want to keep crafting viable against grind-it-until-you-find-it styles of gear acquisition, so while rewarding those who want to farm, they also reward those who want to craft, and keep people from completely cornering the market on selling certain items by keeping it all done via NPC exchange. It's a bit convoluted, but an interesting notion. Just one vulnerable to fluctuations in player population, i.e. no findee if no makee.

[endersblade]

Ahhh

So unless someone crafts and sells this to the black market AH the spiders drop nothing? Not sure that's a good system.

If that's the gist of it, fuck that nonsense. Glad I don't play this game.

[Deleted]

So they've essentially put in a system that just adds to the completely basic system of sell worthless stuff to vendors and farm worthless stuff from mobs.

Truly the innovation is out of this world!

[WintersLegion]

So they've essentially put in a system that just adds to the completely basic system of sell worthless stuff to vendors and farm worthless stuff from mobs.

Truly the innovation is out of this world!

Ah but not only did they add that they made it more complicated since other people have to create the vendor trash I wonder if they will in another update have even other people have to run out and give the mobs the loot they are to drop.

[Deleted]

Ah but not only did they add that they made it more complicated since other people have to create the vendor trash I wonder if they will in another update have even other people have to run out and give the mobs the loot they are to drop.

I think the odd part is that they are taking money out of the mob slaying economy, to fuel the selling trash to vendor economy.

I mean, why the obscure middle man?

[Slaughty8]

So they've essentially put in a system that just adds to the completely basic system of sell worthless stuff to vendors and farm worthless stuff from mobs.

Truly the innovation is out of this world!

Keep in mind that in Albion Online items have durability and limited usage. Items can't be repaired. So for example basic sword tier 1 may last for like 1h of play, then a player needs many of these. The same applies to legendary items, but their durability is bigger. This system allows crafters to enjoy their job of creating endless supply of high quality items (epic and legendary) to the loot system.
I honestly love this kind of item limited usage system in MMOs, but they should also add unlimited usage insanely rare ones too. Imagine their price in real life money then

[Cosmic Janitor]

Convoluted³

[Okacz]

Wrong.
Cmon, it's easy to grasp.

Again:
1. Players, by killing NPCs, automatically generate loot demand for items and this demand is automatically registered by the Black Market system, for example people killing spiders generate need for an unknown quantity of stuff their loot table. At the begining the loot system stockpile is empty besides money and materials. Players receive 80% of the money from loot, 20% is automatically taken by the Black Market.
2. Black Market puts new buy orders for lets say basic swords x 100, because people are killing monsters with this item in their loot table, but the stock for these is 0.
3. Players craft basic swords and sell 100 to Black Market buy orders to fullfill the order, earning money and from now on other people may loot these swords.
4. 100 Basic swords will be distributed to spiders loot table, so other players may loot them.

Basically the loot table of items is there, but before items start dropping somebody has to craft and sell these to the Black Market. The stock of items in the loost system is 0 until somebody crafts these and sells them to the loot system (aka Black Market).

Loot system has to buy a Sword/Shield/Armor etc from You in order to drop it from a monster.

The wheel has officially been reinvented.

What I'm getting out of this is that sometimes monsters that are expected to drop some loot drop no loot, because they are... out of stock, I guess. So in order to make them drop loot again, some players need to do busywork by killing lootless spiders, and others need to do busywork to make random swords, to sell to monsters I guess. Which would make way more sense if you sold the sword to the freaking player that needs it.

On top of that, what happens if a zone or a monster becomes less popular, and no one gives a crap? It becomes a lootless peasant forever?

[ghostblade]

Keep in mind that in Albion Online items have durability and limited usage. Items can't be repaired. So for example basic sword tier 1 may last for like 1h of play, then a player needs many of these. The same applies to legendary items, but their durability is bigger. This system allows crafters to enjoy their job of creating endless supply of high quality items (epic and legendary) to the loot system.
I honestly love this kind of item limited usage system in MMOs, but they should also add unlimited usage insanely rare ones too. Imagine their price in real life money then

this is something you should have added in the begin part. Many people me, included did not know that. This way it does make more sense. Stil a bit conveluted but i'm starting to get the sense.

But is this only for Trash mob / normal or also for special mobs? ( if albion has that? )

[Slaughty8]

What I'm getting out of this is that sometimes monsters that are expected to drop some loot drop no loot, because they are... out of stock, I guess. So in order to make them drop loot again, some players need to do busywork by killing lootless spiders, and others need to do busywork to make random swords, to sell to monsters I guess.

Correct.

T
On top of that, what happens if a zone or a monster becomes less popular, and no one gives a crap? It becomes a lootless peasant forever?

Then yes, the area becomes item-less, money and materials still drop. It's a normal thing that in time main part of the playerbase migrates from low to mid to high and end-game content so the buy orders will migrate with them.

this is something you should have added in the begin part. Many people me, included did not know that. This way it does make more sense. Stil a bit conveluted but i'm starting to get the sense.

True, I've updated the first post.

But is this only for Trash mob / normal or also for special mobs? ( if albion has that? )

Acording to my knowledge It applies to every single mob, even Dungeons. Albion does have:
- lots of dungeons on the maps, they are 100% open world - shared between everyone
- Inside these dungeons, there are certain bosses. When you kill them, they can spawn a portal as a reward
- If you enter that portal - we call them gateways - (again, spawned as a reward in the open world), you can play a dungeon within the dungeon. The special thing about this is that the number of players who can go through the portal is limited, usually to 5. This allows us to create a challenging dungeon experience as we know that the dungeon can't be zerged down by 10 players instead.
- Technically, you could say the these "gateways" are instanced. On the other hand, they are not really instanced, as they are strictly limited, and you must play in the open world and compete with other players to play them, as they only spawn in limited numbers
- On top of that, we also have "gateways" with a twist, called hell gates: if you kill certain demons in the open world, they spawn a portal to a dungeon that can only be entered by 5 players. The twist: two player groups will be able to enter this dungeon, and then essentially PvP over who gets to kill the boss. Again, you might say these are technically "instanced", practically, however, they are fully anchored in the open world.
- Finally, we have specific raid dungeons, designed for larger groups of 10-15 players with very powerful raid bosses at the end. These are fully open world and feature full PvP.

So at the begining dungeons, gateways, gates, raids will drop money and materials for items including legendary ones and then players will be able to craft legendary items.

[Cosmic Janitor]

So if I want some low level item for leveling my crafting and no one showed demand for them, I have to make a BM request, so that I can farm my own item oO? Wait. Materials still drop? What kind of items are we talking about then? Low level equipment? What about new players?

[Slaughty8]

So if I want some low level item for leveling my crafting and no one showed demand for them, I have to make a BM request, so that I can farm my own item oO? Wait. Materials still drop?

Materials still drop.
In this particular scenario You can go many paths:

1. Salvage instead of Selling
2. Sell the items to the AH
3. Sell the items to the BM
4. Sell the items directly to players

What kind of items are we talking about then? Low level equipment? What about new players?

All the craftable items at all tiers, qualities and rarities. So:

• Basic items (white)
• Uncommon items (green)
• Rare items (blue)
• Exceptional items (purple)
• Legendary items (orange)

And player can craft the following:

• Toolmaker: Tools, Accessories, and Furniture
• Alchemist's Lab: Potions
• Cook: Food
• Saddler: Mounts
• Workbench: Basic equipment for new characters
• Warrior's Forge: Warrior weapons and Plate armor
• Mage's Tower: Mage weapons and Cloth armor
• Hunter's Lodge: Hunter weapons and Leather armor

Source: wiki

[Squishy Tia]

It looks like an extremely volatile and risky system to me. If the population of the game is healthy I see no problem, but if it is not this is gonna crash and burn like the Hindenburg. The game also need to have a fine balance between people that like to craft stuff and other that focus on just combat activities.

This, and basically, your progression is now tied to other players' activities instead of your own for the most part. That's not a good system to rely on, ever. Just knowing this I'm going to skip this game entirely. Screw dealing with waiting on others to craft things just so I have a chance at an item, and only then until enough have dropped that more crafted items have to enter the Black Market system.

Sorry, but that just isn't going to fly very well, or for very long at all, with most players.

[WintersLegion]

Keep in mind that in Albion Online items have durability and limited usage. Items can't be repaired. So for example basic sword tier 1 may last for like 1h of play, then a player needs many of these. The same applies to legendary items, but their durability is bigger. This system allows crafters to enjoy their job of creating endless supply of high quality items (epic and legendary) to the loot system.
I honestly love this kind of item limited usage system in MMOs, but they should also add unlimited usage insanely rare ones too. Imagine their price in real life money then

This makes it even worse this means the game is nothing but a huge grind. Hey I got my bis sword now to grind ten more of them. Well I got two more but my original one broke.