Do we need yet another stat squish?

[Deleted]

I can think of two permanent ways to deal with the issue of needing a stat squish every other expansion:

A)Display "short" numbers on every occasion, similar to HP.
My character has 3400K hp. It's easy for us players to read this. My character deals 1,345,500 with a bursty attack. This isn't easy to read when the combat log and the combat text display multiple numbers, so instead damage should appear as 1345K.
So having Kdmg and Khp at high levels somewhat addresses that and gives a very vinalla-y feeling; my Khp is 3400, a normal ability would deal 800 Kdmg, I deal 350 Kdps, and so on.

B)Squish levels too. A problem that comes from stat squish is the lower level numbers. Imagine having 50 hp at level 35 and dealing 8 damage. It feels weird and the higher the level numbers get, the harder it will be to stat squish.

[enak101]

Don't really care that much if they do or don't, feel like they shouldn't bother unless its technical reasons required. One thing as others have mentioned is that already after 1 squish theres barely any difference in level 62 and level 82 gear for example. Another would make gear/stats even less meaningful between level 1 and level cap. Something to consider I guess.

[Wildmoon]

Ion said that they would do one next xpac and hopefully more long-lasting version.

[Arainie]

That has literally happend since vanilla... doing twice the damage at the end.. I have no clue what you are on about.

As everyone else has stated we're currently on course of doing anywhere between 5 and 10 times as much damage (depending on how secondaries and traits turn out in the Argus tier) compared to EN, not to talk about health pools starting at 2M for Mythic EN (rough Ursoc Mythic requirement) to 4M in Mythic NH easily passing 6M in Argus.

What I would personally like is a scaling along the lines of DPS starting at 10k (for simplicity) for raid tier one, 12-13k for two, 16-17k for three and 19-20k for the final tier. I realize this would not resonate well among those who like to heavily outgear content (especially world content) but I think it'd put the game in a healthier state in terms of player power. As a Mythic raider myself we've recently had a few rerolls ahead of ToS, and if you bring in someone at ilvl 895 (approx EN Mythic) compared to our 915 (approx NH Mythic) main raiders you'll see the main raiders doing almost double the DPS on some fights which is a tad bit crazy in my opinion! As a metric the average 915 DPS in NH is close to 1.1M and 896 lands just over 600k, although granted there are much fewer logs at the low item level.

In wrath, people were doing 2-3k in the first tier and something like 30k by the end of the expansion?

In WotLK, people were doing 3-4k in Naxx and just over 15k in ICC. Those with shadowmourne and DBW were pushing 20k or just above. I'm not saying I liked that scaling either, but it was less crazy than what we're seeing now either way.

[Kynario]

The numbers are just way too high and ridiculous in my eyes. 6000K, the health on my Warrior, becomes ridiculous when you realise it's 6,000,000 HP.

It's just gotten a bit out of hand. But then again... if they stat squish too much the sense of progression goes away completely. "Back in the day" a 5+ intellect, 10+ spirit and 20+ spell power was a huge upgrade after getting a rad blue drop from a dungeon boss. Now you'll replace said item probably 10/20+ levels later because of the squish.
Northrend mobs have pretty much the same amount of HP as do mobs in Winterspring/Silithus or Outland.

Simply put... this system is incredibly inconsistent, somewhat broken and requires an overhaul across the board - and also a system which is long-term, since the game isn't going anywhere soon.

[DeicideUH]

Yes, we need a stat squish. They need to halve the numbers, THEN remove geometric progression from MoP and WoD.

And I wouldn't mind a "level squish" as well. In essence, we could go back from level 110 to, say, 60, and all previous content is retrofitted into the new leveling. Some expansions (TBC and WotLK, then Cata and MoP) could be fit into alternate leveling paths.

[Daffan]

Of course IMO

[Deleted]

It's more like 10x. A fresh 110 with no gear, nothing from Broken Shores, etc should do something between mid 100k and 200k+. Fully Mythic geared toon are doing 10x that.

Honestly, I don't care either way, but we haven't seen 2x since BC. Even in LK, it was a much higher multiplier than that.

Person I responded to said 1.5-2 times was way too much,
I responded saying it was that back in vanilla aswell. Why you try to go off on a different tangent. I have no clue.

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I think you misread him. Currently people don't do double the dps at the end of the expansion. For example, the first time I killed Ursoc hc this expansion, Oct 5, our rogue did 301k dps. Double that, at the end of the expansion, would be 602k dps, right? But looking at the same rogue, on his last Krosus mythic kill, June 8, he did 905k dps. That's triple the damage rather than double, and we're pretty far from the end of the expansion. So if dps is going to triple every tier, next tier he'll end on 2.7m and the last tier 8.1m. That's 27x the starting dps, not double.

"Doing 1.5-2 times more damage at the end of an expansion compared to the beginning more than suffices IMO!"

By this logic, he'd want a stat squish after vanilla. So no, I did not misread his post.

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yeah you really do not

Care to elaborate your point?

[TheWindMask]

I personally don't like stat squishes; it kills the sense of progression IMO (particularly when leveling new characters; assuming you don't use heirlooms, gear becomes pointless when you only replace it once every 30 levels since they stats got squished so much). I don't have an issue with the larger numbers; I like seeing the power growth over time; it is an RPG after all.

I agree in that stat squishes kinda suck in the sense of progression. But the reality is that we would've pushed past the point of no return in terms of number scaling if they hadn't done the stat squish in WoD (and after Legion). https://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/wow..._per_level.jpg

[Low Hanging Fruit]

I dont remember going from 5-6k hp hp to 60k hp at the end of TBC, do you? Because thats what happens now (started at 400k and we are now at 4 mil). At the end of argus we will probably have some 5-6mil HP. If we got "only" double numbers every expac we would be around 160k or something (without any numbers´squish on the way). So no, thats has "literally" NOT happened since vanilla. But if you dont know this no wonder you have no clue what he is on about.

Reverting numbers to vanilla across the board would be okay. Implementation of reasonable ilvl scaling (for example double numbers from the beginning of expac to the end) would solve the problem for atleast 10 years. We would hit millions probably in 7th expansion from the one that its implemented.

This 100.

The problem is blizzard has used gear as a much bigger carrot lately. They don't want the pervious tiers gear to be even remotely viable compared to the next. When this started to happen (I want to say in WotLK, but I could be wrong) we got big growth it it was still somewhat controlled. This carried on into Cata and MoP until they introduced the item upgrade which made those levels have to step up because you had to not only jump over the item but then also the upgrade. Then you move into WoD and you introduce something even bigger and crazier with the warforge system. So you had to jump over the item the warforge, and then topped off with warforged with a socket but this time totally random so harder to predict. Now in Legion you have the insanity of jumping the item, the warforge, the warforge with socket, the titanforge, and the titanforge with socket from any content in the game. I didn't even mention the random stats that can be bonused on as well. Or the fact that they only balanced around one difficulty of raids instead of 4 which increased during those later expansions too. Then tossing in mythic plus and other avenues of insane gearing. Insanity, and topped of with it all being random you pretty much have to account for it.

In something like class and even BC this was so much less the case. Sure being in full MC gear was less powerful than being in full BWL gear but you were still viable. These days its like "looking for ilevel 910" and someone applies at a 900 and you consider it a useless piece of shit.

[coprax]

We are already going back into the millions yet again, do we need another stat squish for the next expansion? I feel like it makes no sense to half the damage just to see it go back two expansions later. Or could there be a more permanent solution? I can't think of any, but maybe anyone of you has an idea?

If they keep the exponentiell scaling of gear and stats there is no permanent solution, but less itemlevel differences between tiers and/or difficulties could delay it a bit.

Better, long term option would be linear scaling.

[Deleted]

I dont remember going from 5-6k hp hp to 60k hp at the end of TBC, do you? Because thats what happens now (started at 400k and we are now at 4 mil). At the end of argus we will probably have some 5-6mil HP. If we got "only" double numbers every expac we would be around 160k or something (without any numbers´squish on the way). So no, thats has "literally" NOT happened since vanilla. But if you dont know this no wonder you have no clue what he is on about.

Reverting numbers to vanilla across the board would be okay. Implementation of reasonable ilvl scaling (for example double numbers from the beginning of expac to the end) would solve the problem for atleast 10 years. We would hit millions probably in 7th expansion from the one that its implemented.

What does health have to do with anything... You really need to learn to read. "Doing 1.5-2 times more damage at the end of an expansion compared to the beginning more than suffices IMO!" is what I responded to.. which you clearly should be able to see. also. 60k is not twice as much as 6k.. it is 10 times more.

[Deleted]

If you look carefully they are starting to sneak "megadamage" into the game. on various AP tokens you can see "2m AP" instead of "2000000 AP"

so it is possible they are working us up for megadamage rather then a squish. not the first time blizz asks us if we want something, we overwhelmingly say we think we dont like it, and then they sneakily put it in the game anyways and everybody is just okay with it.

[Deleted]

As everyone else has stated we're currently on course of doing anywhere between 5 and 10 times as much damage (depending on how secondaries and traits turn out in the Argus tier) compared to EN, not to talk about health pools starting at 2M for Mythic EN (rough Ursoc Mythic requirement) to 4M in Mythic NH easily passing 6M in Argus.

What I would personally like is a scaling along the lines of DPS starting at 10k (for simplicity) for raid tier one, 12-13k for two, 16-17k for three and 19-20k for the final tier. I realize this would not resonate well among those who like to heavily outgear content (especially world content) but I think it'd put the game in a healthier state in terms of player power. As a Mythic raider myself we've recently had a few rerolls ahead of ToS, and if you bring in someone at ilvl 895 (approx EN Mythic) compared to our 915 (approx NH Mythic) main raiders you'll see the main raiders doing almost double the DPS on some fights which is a tad bit crazy in my opinion! As a metric the average 915 DPS in NH is close to 1.1M and 896 lands just over 600k, although granted there are much fewer logs at the low item level.

.

So What.. The person I responded to said "Doing 1.5-2 times more damage at the end of an expansion compared to the beginning more than suffices IMO!".. So by his logic, he'd want a stat squish after every expansion.. right? Your points saying that now we are doing between 5 and 10 times damage serves absolutely no purpose here at all.

Regarding on how you'd want it to scale. I agree.

[Ishayu]

That has literally happend since vanilla... doing twice the damage at the end.. I have no clue what you are on about.

What he's on about it is that nowadays it's way, WAY more than that.

If you take a freshly dinged level 110, it will probably have 1-1.2 million HP and do around 200k DPS.

If you take a well geared mythic raider, it will probably have around 4.5 million HP and do around 800k to 1 million DPS.

This is an increase of around 450% in one tier of raiding. In fact, the power growth is about the same as going from vanilla Ahn'Qiraj 40 to WotLK Naxxramas 25-man.

This is happening because the power growth is exponential with a high coefficent. If you want to see how that messes up, take a look at your artifact power. The expansion started out with you getting dozens of AP per item, now you get hundreds of millions per item. It just gets silly and unreadable. And let's not even get started on what this does to PvP. (Hint, it utterly wrecks it to the point where Blizzard had to take gear out of PvP)

I actually had an addon ready made for publication which did a UI-based squish, but Blizzard wrecked it with the name plate change.

[Thelxi]

I have thought more about this than I care to admit, and I don't think we need another squish even though I was a big supporter of the first squish happening.

The reason is simple: we have reached numbers now where we can basically ignore the last 3 digits of any number on our screen, making them very easy to read. The numbers we are dealing with now are hundreds of thousands, and single digit millions. So for example we see 600k, 300k, 450k and the occasional million, two million etc.

In a sense the numbers have inflated so much that they are actually easier to read now than after the first squish which quickly brought us back to Cataclysm numbers. In a sense it is like the "mega damage" alternative solution they were thinking about, without the actual mega damage crap.

So no I don't want another squish as in practice the numbers are already squished more so than a real squish could squish them. They should just make sure than in the future we won't have to care again about more than the three first digits on our screen, and all will be fine. It's pretty cool too seeing enormous numbers without being swamped in digits.

[Deleted]

I think you misread him. Currently people don't do double the dps at the end of the expansion. For example, the first time I killed Ursoc hc this expansion, Oct 5, our rogue did 301k dps. Double that, at the end of the expansion, would be 602k dps, right? But looking at the same rogue, on his last Krosus mythic kill, June 8, he did 905k dps. That's triple the damage rather than double, and we're pretty far from the end of the expansion. So if dps is going to triple every tier, next tier he'll end on 2.7m and the last tier 8.1m. That's 27x the starting dps, not double.

Yeah we will be at 10m hp at the end of legion and would jump to 100m hp at begin of next ecpansion, reaching 1b at the end... then we would be going to 10billion hp and 2 billion dps...

A stat squish is necessary

[glowpipe]

They should for next expac yes.

[Teri]

There's already damage text and unitframe addons that shorten health and damage numbers, the last squish messed up so much, I don't want that again.

[Deleted]

We needed a squish for this expansion.

And yeah would be good if they found a workaround.

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There's already damage text and unitframe addons that shorten health and damage numbers, the last squish messed up so much, I don't want that again.

What did it mess up? Cause for "so much" i can't think of a single thing.