Counter-Protests Outnumber Anti-Muslim Marches in Several Cities Across U.S.

[Machismo]

I disagree.



Instead of assuming that you have dominion over me, you can just ask, "What is your understanding of Sharia law." It makes you look less like a pompous ideologue, especially when you tell someone who's studied Islam for years that they don't know what Sharia Law is.




The logic you are using to derive this conclusion is absolutely faulty. Mostly because you are attempting to analyze what i am doing from your perspective instead of just asking me what I think. Since you have establish that you believe willful ignorance is an actual thing, we can never, ever see eye to eye on this topic. You can just say that i am "willfully ignorant of the damage that the protesters are causing."




I disagree.

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What is my Ideology?





Sure.




Sure you do.

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You are saying this while I am in the middle of an argument with a guy who believes that All American Muslims believe in Sharia Law and that I simply don't understand Sharia Law. Do not blind yourself to reality simply because it is unpalatable.

I don't know that guy, don't know if he's American, don't know if he's Muslin. He may just be a liberal idiot, or possibly someone who is just talking out of his ass. I know several Muslims, and not one of them supports Shariah Law.

[NineSpine]

What is my Ideology?

Paranoid conspiracy theories about Muslims.

Sure.

We've entered the second phase of reality denial here. Show me an example of a fine issued by the CHRC, please.

[NineSpine]

I don't know that guy, don't know if he's American, don't know if he's Muslin. He may just be a liberal idiot, or possibly someone who is just talking out of his ass. I know several Muslims, and not one of them supports Shariah Law.

I'm an American atheist.

I'd really love to meet a Muslim who does not believe in the five pillars of Islam.

[Machismo]

I'm an American atheist.

I'd really love to meet a Muslim who does not believe in the five pillars of Islam.

The issue comes when trying to force those Five Pillars onto everyone else. People can believe int hose things, and not try to use the government to compel others to obey.

[NineSpine]

So in your world, i can't know what general relativity is because it was originally described in German. Okay.

In the world of ACTUAL experts on this topic, all of us actually speak the language due to how necessary it is to be able to read it in it's original language. The Quran is borderline nonsensical in English.

So, we've stablished you lied about being some kind of expert on this topic. Are you confusing "research" and "I googled it a lot?" Regardless, we can discuss it in English. Can you tell me specifically the parts of the ibādāt you take issue with, and cite which school in particular the interpretations you take issue with come from?

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The issue comes when trying to force those Five Pillars onto everyone else. People can believe int hose things, and not try to use the government to compel others to obey.

Where in the five pillars does it say to compel people to obey?

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I also know several Muslims and none of them support Sharia Law. However you have people like that guy claiming to know what all Muslims believe simply because they Arabic and Farsi. This is where the problem comes into play.

I would love to meet a Muslim who contends that there is not one God and does not believe in prayer. Both of those are issues of Sharia, sooooooo

You've not answered my question. You just reworded what you said earlier. What is the conspiracy theory about Muslims that i believe. Please add it as a quote for easy reference.

The idea that sharia law is some monolithic code of authoritarian rules that some group of Muslims is secretly trying to institute in America.

[Machismo]

In the world of ACTUAL experts on this topic, all of us actually speak the language due to how necessary it is to be able to read it in it's original language. The Quran is borderline nonsensical in English.

So, we've stablished you lied about being some kind of expert on this topic. Are you confusing "research" and "I googled it a lot?" Regardless, we can discuss it in English. Can you tell me specifically the parts of the ibādāt you take issue with, and cite which school in particular the interpretations you take issue with come from?

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Where in the five pillars does it say to compel people to obey?

It does not, but that's not the issue that most people have. People take issue when it is pushed by a theocratic government. People have issue when it causes harm to those who are unable to protect themselves, like children.

[NineSpine]

It does not, but that's not the issue that most people have. People take issue when it is pushed by a theocratic government. People have issue when it causes harm to those who are unable to protect themselves, like children.

Alright, but why are you conflating all of these things? Again, do you know Muslims who deny the existence of one God? That's Sharia. If you believe that and also believe that the government should not be involved in religion at all, you still believe in Sharia, just not some theocratic interpretation of Sharia.

[NineSpine]

When did i establish that I was an Expert? I know how to perform orthogonal projections then translate those 2D projections to 3D conic sections and i've been using this for years. Does not mean i am an "Expert" in calculus.



Where did i say I take an issue with the ibādāt?

You were so busy arguing and getting your point across that you seem to have lost your footing.

The ibādāt is a major, arguably the primary thing, that we call Sharia law. What are we talking about if we aren't talking about the ibādāt?

[boyzma]

The "Sharia Law" protest in Seattle wasn't about sharia law at all.....it was a protest against muslims, period. That "protest" was originally supposed to be held in Portland so the asshats could support the other asshat who killed the 2 guys and wounded the other. The mayor of Portland said no, go elsewhere with your bullshit so they went to Seattle. It was a pure muslim hate protest. Oh, and the "anti-sharia" protesters? They threw glitter and sprayed silly string at the morons...just to show how friggin stupid and transparent they really were.

[NineSpine]

You are so concerned with being correct that you are arguing against someone that supports 95% of your point.

This isn't hard. A Muslim who believes in the ibādāt believes in Sharia law. You have stated you find this problematic. Why?

[Machismo]

Alright, but why are you conflating all of these things? Again, do you know Muslims who deny the existence of one God? That's Sharia. If you believe that and also believe that the government should not be involved in religion at all, you still believe in Sharia, just not some theocratic interpretation of Sharia.

I'm simply showing what the actual issue is about. The same way racism and Islamophobia get joined together, so does Sharia Law and government force. The real issue is when people use belief and the government together. Just as racism has no impact without power behind it, neither does Sharia. So, in the context that is being cautioned, they are speaking about that belief with the power of a government behind it.

[NineSpine]

Where did i state that i find that problematic? You are trying to force me to make an argument that I've never made.

Alright, so you don't believe that Muslims supporting sharia law is a problem?

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I'm simply showing what the actual issue is about. The same way racism and Islamophobia get joined together, so does Sharia Law and government force. The real issue is when people use belief and the government together. Just as racism has no impact without power behind it, neither does Sharia. So, in the context that is being cautioned, they are speaking about that belief with the power of a government behind it.

I don't see where anyone is making that kind of nuanced, contextual cautioning.

[Machismo]

Alright, so you don't believe that Muslims supporting sharia law is a problem?

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I don't see where anyone is making that kind of nuanced, contextual cautioning.

That's what the actual fear is, at least in regards to Sharia Law. That has long been the issue, beliefs being pushed by a government. The same can be said for any theological beliefs that are feared by a populace. The issue arises when one attempts to legislate those beliefs.

That's not to say that is what I believe the rallies were about, they were focused on just being anti-Muslim as a whole.

[NineSpine]

You don't get to make that slight of hand here. I won't allow it. Show me where i presented my views on Muslims, or Sharia or any political system in this post for that matter. I'll wait.

You insisted that for the counter-protestors to have a point, they need to start by conceding that they are also opposed to Sharia law. The obvious implication there is that Sharia law is opposed by all reasonable people, as they undermine their point by not admitting Sharia is bad. Or are we going to enter stage three of reality denial, and you are going to pretend your argument this whole time has been that Sharia is not scary?

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You don't get to make that slight of hand here. I won't allow it. Show me where i presented my views on Muslims, or Sharia or any political system in this post for that matter. I'll wait.

You also insisted that moderate Muslims oppose Sharia, so it would be nice if you could describe for me a Muslim that opposes the ibādāt.

[Spectral]

The usefulness of hyper-tolerant progressives to further the goals of Islamists is one of the more bizarre developments of the last few years. Linda Sarsour as a feminist icon, the image of the hijab being turned into a hip display of solidarity - it's jarring and disorienting if you're operating on the assumption that progressives hold liberal values to be of paramount importance. I guess this is part of what's helped clarify for me that I'm just a modern neoliberal and not actually a progressive.

[NineSpine]

You cannot just remove context from an argument and expect for it to exist wholesale and convey the same meaning as intended in its contextual usage. That is poor form and the basis of developing an intellectually dishonest discussion.

We are not allowed to talk about Shaira law or Islam or any religion on this forum. We are allowed to talk about events surrounding those topics though. If you want an answer to your question, please go back and read the context of my post.

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Where did i say that?

So I was right, reality denial level three. I'm not gonna bother parsing out your nonsense anymore, because of your willingness to just lie and play stupid. Have fun. You know what you think and what you said.

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The usefulness of hyper-tolerant progressives to further the goals of Islamists is one of the more bizarre developments of the last few years. Linda Sarsour as a feminist icon, the image of the hijab being turned into a hip display of solidarity - it's jarring and disorienting if you're operating on the assumption that progressives hold liberal values to be of paramount importance. I guess this is part of what's helped clarify for me that I'm just a modern neoliberal and not actually a progressive.

Can you explain how they are helping Islamists?

[Logwyn]

It's kinda sad the right the guy doesn't want to be taken away is the 2nd amendment. You'd think freedom of speech/religion would be more important. Plus I'm pretty sure Islam doesn't have any rules against guns.

I think the mind set is that if you take away the 2nd then the 1st is close behind. I think that the logic is that if you take away the guns the 2nd protects then the common citizen has not way to protect any other right.

I think that is the logic.

[Spectral]

Can you explain how they are helping Islamists?

Hijabs and more extreme head-coverings are unambiguously misogynist and oppressive - the origin of these is in the notion that men are not responsible for controlling their impulses, women are responsible for dressing modestly. By not just normalizing, but glamorizing these, progressives feed into the goals of Islamists. This is the most striking cultural feature that's normalized by the progressive emphasis on tolerance, but other bog-standard Islamic values that are inimical to modern liberal values are shown tolerance that is not generally afforded to conservative Christians.

Additionally, the hypertolerance and unwillingness to be clear and honest about the problems of Islam, progressives provide cover for Islamists. How much does this matter in the United States? I suspect not very much since the Muslim-American population is more integrated and more moderate than almost any Muslim population in other countries. In the UK and France though, normalization of conservative Islam is very much in line with Islamist goals.

[Kokolums]

Numbers don't matter in these situations. If you did a poll of colonists during the American Revolutionary war, maybe 30-40% of colonists actually supported the war. They revolted anyway. And WON. What really matters in these situations is if you can out-organize the other side. While most colonists opposed the Revolutionary war, they were unmotivated to stop it and very unorganized. The rebels were highly organized. That more than made up for the difference in the polls.

[NineSpine]

Hijabs and more extreme head-coverings are unambiguously misogynist and oppressive - the origin of these is in the notion that men are not responsible for controlling their impulses, women are responsible for dressing modestly. By not just normalizing, but glamorizing these, progressives feed into the goals of Islamists. This is the most striking cultural feature that's normalized by the progressive emphasis on tolerance, but other bog-standard Islamic values that are inimical to modern liberal values are shown tolerance that is not generally afforded to conservative Christians.

Can you show me an example of progressives going after the Amish for the same issue?

Additionally, the hypertolerance and unwillingness to be clear and honest about the problems of Islam, progressives provide cover for Islamists. How much does this matter in the United States? I suspect not very much since the Muslim-American population is more integrated and more moderate than almost any Muslim population in other countries. In the UK and France though, normalization of conservative Islam is very much in line with Islamist goals.

You have restated your initial stance, not provided clarity.