Do we need yet another stat squish?

[klaps_05]

They proved they cant do a proper item squish. I remember the pre-WOD screenshots at blizzcon, wod numbers were what they showed for like a month, then it all went back to the same.

There needs to be an item squish, COMBINED with a system which makes sure another item squish will not be necessary. I swear, make the damn item levels scale ONE item level at a time or something, but stop changing the numbers every expansion. I came back towards end of WoD and it felt incredibly weird numbers wise.

[Deleted]

It absolutely does, though. The exponential growth is a radical departure from early WoW, and it is this exponential growth that's causing the problem, as my post explains. Exponential functions stay within a reasonable range for a very short amount of time. If you look at numerals as opposed to scientific notation, numbers generated by exponential curves will seem to crawl very slowly to the range you want them in, and then they'll almost immediately fly off to infinity. This is something engineers and designers are taught early, because it's important, and it's definitely the problem here.

Humour me.. How does the person I responded to stating that 2times damage warrants a stat squish. Me then responding saying he wants a stat squish after *every* expansion (tbc being the first one needing one), have any bearing on my response. The fact that it is exponantially scaling is a fact.

But in the discussion held, that does not matter. You are just grasping at straws here.

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but we already are doing 2-3 times more dps than we did in EN

and it's only been the first tier

we're gonna be doing like 4 million dps in argus

twice would be fine, 8-9 times is rather a lot

So what. That has nothing to do with what I responded to.

Also its not like this problem is new with huge differences, They have literally been in the game since wotlk.
Where the difference between newly dinged and heroic ICC being more than 10 times that at start.

[cparle87]

They said they are doing one next expansion. I wonder how it will affect current and older content for soloing.

They won't be squishing 1-90 again. The idea was your power grew linearly from 1 to 60, then there was a big spike as you improved your gear. Then next xpac it slowly grew as you levelled to the new cap, then another spike as you geared over the xpac. Just look at the big power gap in MoP from fresh 90s to geared SoO raiders. So 1-90 was squished down linearly. Then we level to 100, a spike as we geared. Now we level to 110, and another spike up as we gear. So after Legion they'll squish down 90-110 so it's completely linear in power gains from 1 to 110.

http://us.media1.battle.net/cms/gall...0342977619.jpg

Notice at 60, 70, 80, 85 there were bigger and bigger spikes in power once you were geared. 90, 100, and 110 are be even worse.

TLDR version, look at the picture in the link. We grow evenly like we do in the graph from 1 to 60 all the way to 90 now cause it's squished, then spike up at 100 and 110. When next squish happens 90-110 will be squished down so it's linear with 1-90.

[Paulosio]

They said they are doing one next expansion. I wonder how it will affect current and older content for soloing.

About the same as it did last time I imagine. In other words very little.

[Deleted]

Humour me.. How does the person I responded to stating that 2times damage warrants a stat squish. Me then responding saying he wants a stat squish after *every* expansion (tbc being the first one needing one), have any bearing on my response. The fact that it is exponantially scaling is a fact.

But in the discussion held, that does not matter. You are just grasping at straws here.

as many people told you: YOU missed the 'not' in your first quoted post and hence are the guy who grasps at straws...

[Aggrophobic]

We are already going back into the millions yet again, do we need another stat squish for the next expansion? I feel like it makes no sense to half the damage just to see it go back two expansions later. Or could there be a more permanent solution? I can't think of any, but maybe anyone of you has an idea?

They can't really get themselves out of this situation though, can they?

They have so many different difficulties that the difference between the "worst" and the best item has to be huge.
If it's just an ilvl or two from normal to mythic then people will not feel rewarded enough. This is already an issue in Legion btw.

Without changing the game at it's core I doubt Blizzard can fix this.

[MasterHamster]

I'd be more interested in Blizzard actually putting back some IMPACT in combat. It doesn't even feel like my weapons are hitting an opponent, I'm just waving weapons in smooth animations and smooth numbers arc smoothly around.

They may be happy with how smooth and responsive they've made combat but as a result it feels like you're fighting air.

Then they can worry about another stat squish. But yeah, the current barrages of xx0000 hits have lost all meaning.

[Deladeu]

Blizzard don't want old tier items being relevant in the current tier. This has been their mantra since mid-bc (I remember using Neltharions Tear from BWL WELL into BT and Hyjal simply because the hit was SO good) --- the best way to do that is to make old tier items irrelevant through making the current content items exponentially more powerful.

Do we need a stat squish? Maybe. I think we need a reboot and a whole change in design philosophy at this point.

[Ishayu]

Well you werent "nearly 200" ilvl above Vanilla gear in TBC, also Vanilla raids (apart from ZG) were tuned for 40 people, so...

So, what? That's part of the point we're making.

Why exactly is it you think you should be able to solo Ragnaros? Do you really think that, in terms of the lore, you're now several million times stronger? Come on.

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I soloed Onyxia as a Ret paladin at the end of TBC when the briefly insane Divine Storm was added, so that statement is not quite accurate.

Oh ok, you solo'd the easiest boss of vanilla at the very end of tBC (actually WotLK pre-patch) because Blizzard messed up tuning. Alright, sure, whatever. Doesn't really invalidate my point

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Humour me.. How does the person I responded to stating that 2times damage warrants a stat squish. Me then responding saying he wants a stat squish after *every* expansion (tbc being the first one needing one), have any bearing on my response. The fact that it is exponantially scaling is a fact.

But in the discussion held, that does not matter. You are just grasping at straws here.

The way you phrased that question is so confusing I cannot answer it. Try an English lesson.

Maybe that was his problem as well, I don't know.

[Deleted]

It's more like 10x. A fresh 110 with no gear, nothing from Broken Shores, etc should do something between mid 100k and 200k+. Fully Mythic geared toon are doing 10x that.

Honestly, I don't care either way, but we haven't seen 2x since BC. Even in LK, it was a much higher multiplier than that.

In TBC you did around 6 times more damage on the last tier than you did in heroics

[Deleted]

Well I guess this happens when you put Diablo devs to work on WoW. Huge numbers suck, particularly when comparing something, like gear. Always wondered why did they prefer to have values for stats which in turn translate into % instead of having sheer % that decays with levels. Like having 1852 crit which translates to say 1.2% crit instead of having directly a +1.2% to the crit chance.

[Deleted]

B)Squish levels too. A problem that comes from stat squish is the lower level numbers. Imagine having 50 hp at level 35 and dealing 8 damage. It feels weird and the higher the level numbers get, the harder it will be to stat squish.

I get what you mean but I think players will complain if you lower the max level .

I think this would only be worth it if it also added freedom on how you lvl through old content. I dont want to do a third of the content from 5 expansions to lvl to 100. I want to clear 2 expansions to get to lvl 100.

[Teri]

Well I guess this happens when you put Diablo devs to work on WoW. Huge numbers suck, particularly when comparing something, like gear. Always wondered why did they prefer to have values for stats which in turn translate into % instead of having sheer % that decays with levels. Like having 1852 crit which translates to say 1.2% crit instead of having directly a +1.2% to the crit chance.

Old vanilla gear had 1-2% hit or crit on items, they later changed it for ratings so they could tweak the level curve in expansions better.

Now after the stat squish it's less noticeable on like 61-85 items.

And Legion items especially legendary rings/necks have like over 5% crit sometimes at high itemlevels...

970 Sephuz has +3,204 (8.01%) Critical Strike +1,281(3,416%) +2% flat Haste

Obviously they removed a lot of base crit or talented passive crit from classes, some at 5% some at 10% base only.

They compensated that by removing int/str/agi from rings and necks and overall the scaling of secondaries is much lower then stamina/primary stats.

Right now you need 375 for 1% haste, 400 for 1% crit/mastery, 475 for 1% Versatility damage, 950 for 1% less damage taken.

If they keep the same scaling going, we'd see sephuz hit over 4000 rating / 10% crit at itemlevel 1000, if they don't reduce the secondary scaling again like they did already in 7.1.5.

[dieudal]

Engine wise, no. Aesthetically, yes please! I really don't like the ridiculous numbers we are reaching, I like BC and early Wrath numbers.

[Deleted]

So, what? That's part of the point we're making.

Why exactly is it you think you should be able to solo Ragnaros? Do you really think that, in terms of the lore, you're now several million times stronger? Come on.

Well, since there is no 200 ilvl difference, it's kinda outside what I wrote previously.

Oh you want to bring lore into your argument? How cute. If we'd do this "by lore" we'd still be stuck on Onyxia, because you know, she would literally crush anyone she steps on. Also, people hit by her tail would be smushed all over the wall like a fly on a car's windshield. So yeah that was kind of a stupid counter argument from your side.

Besides, we're at the game's 5th expansion, do you really wish to invalidate my argument with something which was true only up until the 2nd expansion, alas it is "invalid" since nearly 9 years now?

[Logwyn]

They should squish it done so that the number are below 1000. That's the top DPS number not 1,000,000.

[Teri]

They should squish it done so that the number are below 1000. That's the top DPS number not 1,000,000.

Gonna be really complex to do that unless they for example overhaul all leveling content again adding proper scaling.

Level 1 character would need to have like 25 hp and 1-2 damage, adding decimals is not a solution, doing 1.2424-1.9532 damage is confusing even more then rounded numbers like 125k , 900k, 1.5m hits.

Right now level 60 already do 1000 dps in epics at least.

For some reason at level 60, naked as a mage I got 4000 hp and 200-400 dps...

Back in Vanilla you needed like full Field Marshal or Naxx gear or buffs to break 4k.

[ThrashMetalFtw]

I wouldn't give a private server much validity though. Not sure how close to the real thing it was. You definitely weren't doing 1200 dps in t4 on live servers. I might be wrong about cataclysm numbers. Was the nerf to DS by nerfing the bosses or did they buff the players like they did in ICC?

And yeah, I might have been thinking about people bursting in the millions for SoO. That and OP tank vengeance shenanigans.

Why would you not give a private server much validity? It's supposed to be Blizzlike, that's the entire point. Same tuning, same talents. As somebody stated earlier though, most private servers base their tuning on patches that came later during the expansion, so most classes probably got a few buffs/nerfs compared to how they were when the raids was fresh, but that doesn't matter for a TBC server, as every single raid was valid progress the entire expansion, and no amount of changes would result in the differences you are talking about. Ppl were still progressing t4 and t5 when the WotLK prepatch hit.

Keep in mind that this was also 2 years ago, at which point I had been doing progressraiding for years, and was a by far better player than 99,9% of any players would have been back when TBC was retail, and with the "future" knowledge of how to perfectly minmax my char and playstyle. Original point still stands though. 200 Dps was pretty much autoattack, no matter which class you played.


And yes, DS got a flat nerf, not a buff to players. It was a raidwide debuff to the bosses, decreasing their stuff. Didn't you need like 42-43k average Dps from your raiders if you wanted to kill Ultraxion HC prenerf, as the enrage was an instant raidwipe mechanic? I clearly remember the top WoL parses for the best ST classes (Arms Warr, Fire Mage, Legendary Rogue and Demo Lock) ranging between 55k and 60k, while most other classes had their top parses between 50k and 55k.

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Cause you only count DPS as a factor.

When i go from what was it? 65-75K max hp with the ICC buff in BiS gear? to 250K first tier of Cataclysm its wrong also.

You are blindly defending the worst ilvl scaling "by dps factor", DPS isnt the only fucked up number in the game, my 7.356.534 million HP tank is also.

And i am not sure where you are getting your DPS numbers, especially ICC had more than 20K DPS cause of the retarded buff, thats for sure, start of Catacylsm wasnt only 20K , more like 40-50K+ at the end of T1 of Cataclysm and 100K at DS.

I love being correct http://www.worldoflogs.com/ranking/e...agon-soul/dps/

Your Cata numbers are so wrong it's not even funny. These are more correct ST numbers:

- Fresh 85: 10kish
- Pre-raid BiS from 5mans: 15kish
- Full t11 HC: 25kish, with the extreme outliers like Arms Warrs prenerf going slightly above 30k.
- Full t12 HC: 35-40k for melees and non-Legendary casters. Closing in on 50k for the best Legendary casters (Original Legendary staff was probably the most OP Legendary ever added to this game, then it got a HUGE nerf as DS was released).
- Full t13 HC: 50-55k for most classes, 55-60k for Arms Warrs, Legendary Rogues, Fire Mages and Demo Locks.

100k in DS? Are you joking? 100k was more like midprogress t14 Dps (as in, 1st tier of MoP), when ppl had BiS normal gear, with some HC pieces thrown in.The DS logs you linked are done after the MoP patch, with MoP classes and talents, so you obviously prefer being wrong, over being correct

[coprax]

Your Cata numbers are so wrong it's not even funny. These are more correct ST numbers:

- Fresh 85: 10kish
- Pre-raid BiS from 5mans: 15kish
- Full t11 HC: 25kish, with the extreme outliers like Arms Warrs prenerf going slightly above 30k.
- Full t12 HC: 35-40k for melees and non-Legendary casters. Closing in on 50k for the best Legendary casters (Original Legendary staff was probably the most OP Legendary ever added to this game, then it got a HUGE nerf as DS was released).
- Full t13 HC: 50-55k for most classes, 55-60k for Arms Warrs, Legendary Rogues, Fire Mages and Demo Locks.

100k in DS? Are you joking? 100k was more like midprogress t14 Dps (as in, 1st tier of MoP), when ppl had BiS normal gear, with some HC pieces thrown in.The DS logs you linked are done after the MoP patch, with MoP classes and talents, so you obviously prefer being wrong, over being correct

Ultraxion Heroic required about 47k dps per player iirc, so yes 55k in full gear afterwards sounds about right.

[BannedForViews]

That has literally happend since vanilla... doing twice the damage at the end.. I have no clue what you are on about.

I think he means doing 2x more damage is fine, but currently we are doing 3-4x and are halfway thogh the whole xpac.