Finished my Patch 7.2.5 Essentials guide now

[Deleted]

So now we wait for Blizzard to change everything.
Tried something a little different with the format of this one, so let me know what you think. I've also split some related videos into additional playlists, including one for logs analysis and another for Ret vlogs, which I intend to do more frequently this Summer.

[Deleted]

Hey Thete!

Nice guide as usual.

This tier makes things a bit more tricky. We know we want to aim for 30-31% haste, but at what point? It may not be worth it to rush it just cause of how many of the other stats we lose so it will lead to alot of simming and gear swapping to find that point.
Solsacra's latest sims pointed at belt+liadrin's beeing the strongest leggy combo but he also showed that at 30% haste cape+highlord become strongest.

AKA it's a bit of a mess atm. ^^

Btw you didn't include faulty countermeasure in the trinket list. Is that cause you forget or is the scalling terrible? I still find that it beats horn of valor on single target.

[Felkor]

Thanks for the guide ; nothing really new for people following the game & updates, but it's a great starting point for anyone starting playing retribution !

More on a raiding perspective : do you think you're gonna do some videos about tomb, and tips & tricks for ret fight to fight ? Could be a cool thing

[Deleted]

Hey Thete!
This tier makes things a bit more tricky. We know we want to aim for 30-31% haste, but at what point? It may not be worth it to rush it just cause of how many of the other stats we lose so it will lead to alot of simming and gear swapping to find that point.
Solsacra's latest sims pointed at belt+liadrin's beeing the strongest leggy combo but he also showed that at 30% haste cape+highlord become strongest.

Btw you didn't include faulty countermeasure in the trinket list. Is that cause you forget or is the scalling terrible? I still find that it beats horn of valor on single target.

Yes, haste is likely to jump up and down a lot as we transition from NH to ToS gear. I will just roll with it for a while.
FCM was not looking good to me when I was simming a load of trinkets at roughly the same item level, so I left it out. Will be doing a more detailed trinket video when I've seen which ones Blizzard will nerf after release.

[Talvindius]

Yes, haste is likely to jump up and down a lot as we transition from NH to ToS gear. I will just roll with it for a while.
FCM was not looking good to me when I was simming a load of trinkets at roughly the same item level, so I left it out. Will be doing a more detailed trinket video when I've seen which ones Blizzard will nerf after release.

FCM took a big hit with the crusade nerf, I'd be more interested in seeing when I should replace CoF since in long fights even at low ilvl it should still be top tier with belt/liadrins.

[Deleted]

FCM took a big hit with the crusade nerf, I'd be more interested in seeing when I should replace CoF since in long fights even at low ilvl it should still be top tier with belt/liadrins.

The benefit of CoF is in either getting an extra Crusade out, and that's dependent on kill time, or in getting to use Crusade at more convenient times, which is relevant on some bosses and not others.

[killwithpwr]

Great job Thete, love your channle mate.

Was just wondering why you said a ST opener would be BoJ - > J + Crusade - > TV and then Ashbringer... Wont it be more efficient to open with ashes then judge+crusade and tv? And the BoJ then gets the benefit of both judge and tv? Or i missunderstand something there?

[Deleted]

Great job Thete, love your channle mate.

Was just wondering why you said a ST opener would be BoJ - > J + Crusade - > TV and then Ashbringer... Wont it be more efficient to open with ashes then judge+crusade and tv? And the BoJ then gets the benefit of both judge and tv? Or i missunderstand something there?

you forget that you are still running in on pull so opening with wake is more than a little risky^^

[Meiffert]

We know we want to aim for 30-31% haste, but at what point?

Why are you like this?
Every single post on these forums in paladin section has someone randomly coming in out of nowhere with 30 % haste.
Literally since beta all I hear is 30 % haste.

There is no significant cap or breakpoint at 30 % haste. Nothing. Changing from 25 % to 30 % haste (and losing the equivalent amount of crit or vers) will have almost no effect on your dps.
Crit, vers and haste are equal. It doesn't matter at all how much you have of any of these 3 stats.

The only really relevant haste breakpoint is 12.5 % haste.
I think I had to explain this at least 20 times by now and I'm sure tomorrow I will read how we need 30 % haste again.

Solsacra's latest sims pointed at belt+liadrin's beeing the strongest leggy combo but he also showed that at 30% haste cape+highlord become strongest.

Can you link these?
All I saw were single and paired sims.
According to these, Liadrin's, belt and cloak are pretty much equal. Any combination of these 3 results in similar damage.
New Highlord's ring is not bad and has good synergy with cloak (more TVs from DP getting buffed by cloak and extending the cloak buff for regular finishers in return), but it is not quite as strong as any combination of the top 3 legendaries.

Moreover, the new ring "forcing" cloak is not desirable, because cloak is a tier slot and we would prefer to keep it open for the tier bonus.

As a result, while there are many viable combinations of legendaries (top 3, Highlord's with cloak, even shoulders aren't bad), because of tier slot considerations, the best pair should be belt + Liadrin's.

[Deleted]

Why are you like this?
Every single post on these forums in paladin section has someone randomly coming in out of nowhere with 30 % haste.
Literally since beta all I hear is 30 % haste.

There is no significant cap or breakpoint at 30 % haste. Nothing. Changing from 25 % to 30 % haste (and losing the equivalent amount of crit or vers) will have almost no effect on your dps.
Crit, vers and haste are equal. It doesn't matter at all how much you have of any of these 3 stats.

The only really relevant haste breakpoint is 12.5 % haste.
I think I had to explain this at least 20 times by now and I'm sure tomorrow I will read how we need 30 % haste again.



Can you link these?
All I saw were single and paired sims.
According to these, Liadrin's, belt and cloak are pretty much equal. Any combination of these 3 results in similar damage.
New Highlord's ring is not bad and has good synergy with cloak (more TVs from DP getting buffed by cloak and extending the cloak buff for regular finishers in return), but it is not quite as strong as any combination of the top 3 legendaries.

Moreover, the new ring "forcing" cloak is not desirable, because cloak is a tier slot and we would prefer to keep it open for the tier bonus.

As a result, while there are many viable combinations of legendaries (top 3, Highlord's with cloak, even shoulders aren't bad), because of tier slot considerations, the best pair should be belt + Liadrin's.

It is ironic i'm accused of that after a huge debate i had on the matter to defend what you just said. But, you are right to be skeptic. I am talking about things that are not laid in stone and having a conversation. The reason for the 30% is because you will manage to fit one more global on the cloak buff window. Of course, no one knows yet for certain when or if this is something worth persuing at the cost of other stats or by simply using a different set of legendaries.

The sim's are on the discord stickies. I am not on the PC atm so i can't link them for you.

The word on t19 is it won't be worth keeping unless you have a big titanforged piece.

[Meiffert]

The sim's are on the discord stickies. I am not on the PC atm so i can't link them for you.

The ret discord pinned post is what I posted above.

It is ironic i'm accused of that after a huge debate i had on the matter to defend what you just said. But, you are right to be skeptic. I am talking about things that are not laid in stone and having a conversation. The reason for the 30% is because you will manage to fit one more global on the cloak buff window.

Of course we can have a conversation about this topic, but you should back your claims with arguments, otherwise it's not much of a debate.

It's entirely possible that I'm making a simple mistake somewhere and missing something obvious, wouldn't be the first time. But I have shown this math a few times before and nobody ever pointed any mistakes:

1. The cloak buff is 4 seconds long.
2. Base global cooldown with no haste is 1.5 seconds.

That means that with no haste, this is the timeline:
0.0 - finisher (activates the cloak)
1.5 - 1st gcd under the buff
3.0 - 2nd gcd under the buff
4.5 - 3rd gcd is outside of the buff
6.0 - 4th gcd also way outside the buff obviously

What we want is to get the 3rd GCD to still fall inside the buff window. To do that, we need to increase our haste by the factor of 4.5/4 = 1.125. That means 12.5 % haste.

If we also wanted to get the next (4th) GCD to still fall inside the buff, we would need to increase our haste by the factor of 6/4 = 1.5, which is 50 %. This value is realistically unreachable outside of Crusade or Heroism.

As you can see, the up-time of cloak buff increases with haste as expected and there are breakpoints that allow for one extra ability inside the buff window.
These breakpoints are 12.5 % (for the 3rd ability after the finisher) and 50 % (for the 4th). They are nowhere near 30 %.

[Dawon]

I'm hijacking this thread for a question: as we're kinda shitty on ST, due to the insane nerf to DH, can we really justify a raidspot now or is the sky falling? (yeah i know, play what u want unless you are top10 in the world but even so, I'd love to see that my class have serious potential to be top3).

[Deleted]

The ret discord pinned post is what I posted above.
Of course we can have a conversation about this topic, but you should back your claims with arguments, otherwise it's not much of a debate.

It's entirely possible that I'm making a simple mistake somewhere and missing something obvious, wouldn't be the first time. But I have shown this math a few times before and nobody ever pointed any mistakes:

1. The cloak buff is 4 seconds long.
2. Base global cooldown with no haste is 1.5 seconds.

That means that with no haste, this is the timeline:
0.0 - finisher (activates the cloak)
1.5 - 1st gcd under the buff
3.0 - 2nd gcd under the buff
4.5 - 3rd gcd is outside of the buff
6.0 - 4th gcd also way outside the buff obviously

What we want is to get the 3rd GCD to still fall inside the buff window. To do that, we need to increase our haste by the factor of 4.5/4 = 1.125. That means 12.5 % haste.

If we also wanted to get the next (4th) GCD to still fall inside the buff, we would need to increase our haste by the factor of 6/4 = 1.5, which is 50 %. This value is realistically unreachable outside of Crusade or Heroism.

As you can see, the up-time of cloak buff increases with haste as expected and there are breakpoints that allow for one extra ability inside the buff window.
These breakpoints are 12.5 % (for the 3rd ability after the finisher) and 50 % (for the 4th). They are nowhere near 30 %.

Sigh... he removed them but he had them up there. As i said, these things are not formally finished yet so calm down and let's wait for more definitive and complete evidence. What we know is that things are uncertain atm and we shouldn´t make any drastic changes. I don't disagree with you at all, i was trying to make sense of the info i was reading in discord.
Also the 30% must be for the judgement window then. I got them mixed up. Apologies. Wether its worth persuing i´m as skeptic as you are. I mean i dunno how my post was anything but saying things are unclear...

Ah! i had posted it on the Highlord ring thread. Here you are, so you can stop the accusations that i'm making stuff up: https://simc.derig.org/static/output...028e05edb.html
These are for 30% haste.

Maybe they are out of date now. I dunno, but he definitly posted them. Like Thete says there appears to be points where haste's value fluctuates. That is what needs investigation.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm hijacking this thread for a question: as we're kinda shitty on ST, due to the insane nerf to DH, can we really justify a raidspot now or is the sky falling? (yeah i know, play what u want unless you are top10 in the world but even so, I'd love to see that my class have serious potential to be top3).

I´ve seen the sims from the DH discord, but i dunno. If we are that low im sure we will get buffed. Theres changes coming soon and more next week.

Maybe lol... they will rebuff crusade and see what utter fools they are. xD

[ThePants999]

Judgment breakpoint is 31.25% IIRC. There is no 30% haste breakpoint.

[Meiffert]

Ah! i had posted it on the Highlord ring thread. Here you are, so you can stop the accusations that i'm making stuff up: https://simc.derig.org/static/output...028e05edb.html

Thanks.

Also, sorry about replying to you harshly, I didn't want to comment at all, but got frustrated, because I ran into that 30 % multiple times in 5 minutes just skimming the forums and lost patience.


The Judgment window indeed creates a breakpoint at 31.25, possibly worth going for if you are close and don't have to sacrifice a lot. But I think it's important to mention that in case of breakpoints, you absolutely need to be over the 31.25 %, under no circumstances 30 - 31.

(That's assuming that the Highlord's + cloak combo benefits a lot from this breakpoint, which is possible given the extra finishers you get, rather than some other haste interaction.)

[Deleted]

Thanks.

Also, sorry about replying to you harshly, I didn't want to comment at all, but got frustrated, because I ran into that 30 % multiple times in 5 minutes just skimming the forums and lost patience.


The Judgment window indeed creates a breakpoint at 31.25, possibly worth going for if you are close and don't have to sacrifice a lot. But I think it's important to mention that in case of breakpoints, you absolutely need to be over the 31.25 %, under no circumstances 30 - 31.

(That's assuming that the Highlord's + cloak combo benefits a lot from this breakpoint, which is possible given the extra finishers you get, rather than some other haste interaction.)

No worries. I totally understand and share the sentiment.

I don't even know if its the breakpoint tbh. The sims that Sol got there are for 30% he said, so i do think its not just the breakpoint but other synergies making the values fluctuate. Quite honestly, i don't know. That is why i am waiting for more concrete data or will just figure out myself when i got the gear to sim and test.

[Deleted]

Judgment breakpoint is 31.25% IIRC. There is no 30% haste breakpoint.

There are a couple of cunning things at around this haste value worth bearing in mind.
1. We will be getting more benefit from BoJ as it will give 3HP and our Judgment will give us a buff causing BoJ to deal more damage. Higher haste means we can choose to cast Judgment more often and be more likely to buff all of our BoJ casts.
2. With 30%+ haste, the new DP ring remains a tantalising possibility for people who like Divine Purpose and you may well find yourself having extended periods of time during a fight alternating between BoJ and TV. This means an easier time with the legendary cloak buff, and Righteous Verdict also magnifies the benefit of this.

[ThePants999]

Sure, but none of that is specific to any particular haste value, let alone 30%. There's no breakpoint. S'all I'm saying.

[Deleted]

Sure, but none of that is specific to any particular haste value, let alone 30%. There's no breakpoint. S'all I'm saying.

I don't think either me or thete brought it up as a "breakpoint". Just that there are those sims i linked that show that at those levels of haste things may change a bit. I assumed it may be related to it but it may very well not be, as i mentioned on my posts.

Again we don't know, though we can try to make educated guesses. We can't say atm that 30% is a magic number for some reason or not or where the inflex point is. What happens is none of us is a theorycrafter. We are trying to analyse the data we are getting and making an effort to make some sense of it and help the community. The data we got atm says that at around 30% things change somehow. Why exactly or how accurate that ends up beeing is something that needs investigating.

Quite honestly, if the comparative sims hold any water we may be seeing buffs to abilities soon that may skew things in one way or another.

AKA... keep calm. I know alot of people misinformed others about the 30/31.25% haste thing in the past. This is not the case here. Hold on and lets see where this leads us.

[Gloriandus]

Any significant differences now that this is coming?

Paladin - Retribution

• 2pc: Swapped with 4pc and is now: "Judgment increases Blade of justice damage by 15% for 8 sec."

• 4pc: Swapped with 2pc and is now: "Blade of Justice generates 1 additional Holy Power."