2016-2017 NBA Thread

[Jibjabb]

Okay Skip Bayless.

You reap what you sow

[jregz]

You reap what you sow

On one hand, I'd love to know the mental gymnastics behind a statement like this, but it might be better if I don't attempt the same acrobatics.

[Gandrake]

So this is probably our reality for the next 3-5 years right?

until cavs shitcan deron williams (dude is a hot pile of trash. i bet money that blake griffin is a better point guard) and gets more out of kyle korver, that's likely. i hope they get delladova back, he was really good. but who knows, maybe one day jamal crawford will get tired of fighting coachs son for minutes and being one of the most underrated players ever and join a real team

this team just expects lebron, kyrie and jr to do everything lol.

Deron wasn't a good choice to sub Kyrie, also it hasn't been mentioned here iirc. Kyrie played injured.

not that you would have been able to tell at the start of this game

[Blueobelisk]

On one hand, I'd love to know the mental gymnastics behind a statement like this, but it might be better if I don't attempt the same acrobatics.

Jib hates LeBron because one of the waterboys tried taking Lebrons pants off. He's jealous.

Ill officially announce winner of contest tomorrow. There isn't a lot of chatter in the thread about this victory. I guess after 3-0 it was just expected, so no one really cares.

[Stommped]

On one hand, I'd love to know the mental gymnastics behind a statement like this, but it might be better if I don't attempt the same acrobatics.

It's not really mental gymnastics, a lot of people feel like Lebron opened this Pandora's Box by going to Miami. And it's not inconceiveable to think that if Lebron never left Cleveland that Durant would have felt pressured to stay in OKC and this super team would never have happened. But then again Lebron probably wouldn't be in the finals so all kinds of shit would be different. But that's definitely the logic behind his statement.

[Sharpbladez]

Reading all the social media, its sad how many Cavs fans are sore losers.

[Racthoh]

i don't think lebron leaves. if he got swept then he would seriously consider it but they won a game, they did "well" considering.

[Demoncrash]

Well if they keep playing like that i really don't see how any team can stop the Warriors from winning the next 5-6 NBA championships.

[jregz]

It's not really mental gymnastics, a lot of people feel like Lebron opened this Pandora's Box by going to Miami. And it's not inconceiveable to think that if Lebron never left Cleveland that Durant would have felt pressured to stay in OKC and this super team would never have happened. But then again Lebron wouldn't be in the finals so all kinds of shit would be different. But that's definitely the logic behind his statement.

So here's my problem with that.

1) Super teams are not new. LeBron did not invent the super team despite what ESPN wants you to think. There is no Pandora's Box to open. There is no wind sown.

2) If the problem lies with the player taking agency for his path instead of allowing management to make those decisions for him, you're essentially saying his career should've been left to some notably large portion of luck in order to stand among the grand pantheon of basketball legends which, especially now, is a discussion largely driven by...

3) Rings. The same people who hate LeBron for forming super teams are the same people who would never allow the comparison between himself and the likes of Magic, Bird, Jordan, and Kareem on the basis of rings alone. Yet, at best, he is at minor fault for anything management attempted to do in his first go in Cleveland.

If he stays, there is a real likelihood he never wins. For factors outside his control, he'd never get the time of day when it came time to talk about legacies with the same people condemning the super teams he tried to put together. On rings alone, as poisonous and idiotic as this dialogue has become, he would never be taken seriously.

And to pretend LeBron now reaps the whirlwind because another player has come to the same conclusion despite his vastly superior environment? It truly does not compute. OKC was a vastly more talented team than Cleveland's first run with LeBron, even with the Harden trade. They had a real chance for years to come. And then KD leaves after blowing a 3-1 lead to join the very team he'd lost to, a team that had just won a championship, and then followed that up with a 73-win season.

I'm all for player agency but even this starts to push competitive boundries. Cleveland just averaged 114.8 ppg in the Finals and still lost in 5.

Frankly, any logic behind Jibb's statement is immediately suspect given the enormous bias behind it.

[Berndorf]

Well if they keep playing like that i really don't see how any team can stop the Warriors from winning the next 5-6 NBA championships.

5-6 is going a bit far. Their trio is in the 28-30 age range and two of them will be coming up and likely to expect close to max contracts while Durant said he'd be willing to sign a slightly less than max deal. Even so I don't think they can afford both Curry and Klay. Also Green will be up for a max deal in a few years I think. Then guys like Iguodola are already old so they will need to be replaced. I think their window is 3-4 years. They could still contend after that but will need to do some major retooling and cap finagling to still be the favorite.

[PhaelixWW]

I'm all for player agency but even this starts to push competitive boundries. Cleveland just averaged 114.8 ppg in the Finals and still lost in 5.

I try to avoid the "per game" stats in favor of "per possession" stats, simply because the Warrior's offense is so fast-paced, it distorts the numbers.

In fact, the Cavs outscored the Warriors 118-116 in points per 100 possessions throughout the playoffs.

Not, obviously, during the Finals, but...

[Deleted]

With regard to the Cavs:

They have to do something to fix their ridiculous dependence on Lebron. I have to think that if Popovich was coaching that team they'd figure out a way to play with him on the bench. Let's again review:

In the regular season they outscored opponents by 7.7 points per 100 possessions with Lebron on the court. That's about equal to the Spurs rating for the season.

With Lebron off the court, they were outscored by 8.5 points per 100 possessions. That's worse than the Brooklyn Nets.

In the postseason those numbers go to +15.4 and -15.7! That's insane!

And I have to think this comes back to coaching. There's no excuse for Kyrie's defense lapses at this point in his career. He's a smart, incredibly gifted athlete, and yet he rated as the 80th best defensive point guard by real plus minus this year (i.e., way worse than Deron Williams). You think Popovich would stand for that?

With Lebron on the bench you can run out this lineup:

Kyrie
JR
Love
Thompson
Korver

How is that team getting manhandled like they're last years 76ers?

whatever the coach, if you got Lebron on your team, HE IS the system. KD can play in any system, he adapt to the team. In his team Lebron is the MVP, the coach and GM. when he is on the bench, his teammates are lost..... you can't play the "Lebron" system when he is on the bench obviously. That's probably the only Lebron flaw but that's why he lost to teams that play like teams... Mavs, Spurs, GSW let him do his stuff but control his teammates, Finish with the ring.

[Blueobelisk]

whatever the coach, if you got Lebron on your team, HE IS the system. KD can play in any system, he adapt to the team.

??? What does that mean? That if Lebron went to a good team like the 73 win Warriors that he wouldn't be effective? Lebron runs plays because he's so good and his teammates suck in comparison, not because he can only play the game while his hands are on the ball.

And lol KD can score very effectively, I'll give you that, but clearly scoring alone doesn't take a team to championships, so it's kind of a moot point.

[FobManX]

Lebron needs the ball in his hands to be dominant. He's not that great off the ball, like Durant. There is also nobody else on the Cavs that can distribute or make plays. Irving is a score first PG. Meanwhile Curry, Thompson, even Green are all fantastic passers. The system in GS is brilliant but Lebron wouldn't thrive in it. Of course he'd still do great, and with that much talent they'd still probably win, but it'd be different.

What Lebron needs is good off ball players around him.

[Deleted]

??? What does that mean? That if Lebron went to a good team like the 73 win Warriors that he wouldn't be effective? Lebron runs plays because he's so good and his teammates suck in comparison, not because he can only play the game while his hands are on the ball.

I mean if Lebron went to a good team like the 73 wins Warriors, then the Warriors would't play like the Warriors we know for 3/4 years now. They wouldn't play Warriors basketball anymore, they would play the "Lebron system" where he' got the ball in his hand, attack the rim and either take the shot or pass to an open shooter.

coach Lue is a puppet. He is just here to make substitution and he's bad even for that... call Kyrie to the bench when he's in a good period, J.R. was red hot but don't get the ball anymore in the 4th....

And yeah KD scores effectively. give me that. He's also 7f tall with an airbus wingspan, can move his feet to stay in front of Lebron and did a 5 blocks game in the finals after averaging almost 2 blocks a game in the season. He's not just a scorer.

[ItachiZaku]

So many weapons on GS, that if one role player does anything, there is NO chance. Like last night, it was Iggy that was that bonus. Klay day, Stephanie, Scrotum Cop and KD... 2 or 3 can have a "bad" night and you have a bench dude roll up a 20 piece and you won't win.

Cavs bench is just inconsistent. Those are some legit solid role players, but you can't expect 20 a night from JR or Korver, else they'd not be role players but stars.

To me, this series solidifies Bron as the GOAT. Further proving that others in the GOAT discussion had a ton of help, Bron has really only seemed to have 1 in his prime star during his career.

[jregz]

I try to avoid the "per game" stats in favor of "per possession" stats, simply because the Warrior's offense is so fast-paced, it distorts the numbers.

In fact, the Cavs outscored the Warriors 118-116 in points per 100 possessions throughout the playoffs.

Not, obviously, during the Finals, but...

This is a fair point but even given the pace, this is probably the most offensively explosive era in NBA history.

[Jibjabb]

So here's my problem with that.

1) Super teams are not new. LeBron did not invent the super team despite what ESPN wants you to think. There is no Pandora's Box to open. There is no wind sown.

2) If the problem lies with the player taking agency for his path instead of allowing management to make those decisions for him, you're essentially saying his career should've been left to some notably large portion of luck in order to stand among the grand pantheon of basketball legends which, especially now, is a discussion largely driven by...

3) Rings. The same people who hate LeBron for forming super teams are the same people who would never allow the comparison between himself and the likes of Magic, Bird, Jordan, and Kareem on the basis of rings alone. Yet, at best, he is at minor fault for anything management attempted to do in his first go in Cleveland.

If he stays, there is a real likelihood he never wins. For factors outside his control, he'd never get the time of day when it came time to talk about legacies with the same people condemning the super teams he tried to put together. On rings alone, as poisonous and idiotic as this dialogue has become, he would never be taken seriously.

And to pretend LeBron now reaps the whirlwind because another player has come to the same conclusion despite his vastly superior environment? It truly does not compute. OKC was a vastly more talented team than Cleveland's first run with LeBron, even with the Harden trade. They had a real chance for years to come. And then KD leaves after blowing a 3-1 lead to join the very team he'd lost to, a team that had just won a championship, and then followed that up with a 73-win season.

I'm all for player agency but even this starts to push competitive boundries. Cleveland just averaged 114.8 ppg in the Finals and still lost in 5.

Frankly, any logic behind Jibb's statement is immediately suspect given the enormous bias behind it.

He invented them by forming them on his own accord. The past super teams were either ones that were A) drafted and already there B) traded for or C) old superstars trying to get a easy win at the tail end of their careers, ala Karl Malone and Gary Payon. Lebron, Wade, and Bosh were the first to all decide to take less money to play on the same team together when each player was a bonafide superstar and a #1 option for their respective teams. They wanted to make an easy path to championships so they did and it through off the competitive balance of the league. The fact they lost a few times doesnt change that, just shows even with them stacking the deck they werent as good as they should have been. Not to mention they kept getting discount deals from older players that wanted to hang along for the ride wanting a free win further making their team stronger than it should have been

To say OKC has a legit shot at winning a title is beyond laughable. there is not a single person alive that would have picked them if their team stayed constructed the same this year and that was knowing that they were going to lose Ibaka. Beyond Westbrook their lineup is mostly garbage, Kanter is the only other respectable player on that roster and he was only getting slightly over 20 minutes per game. Lebron left the consistently #1 team in the eastern conference that was once again a decent favorite to make the Finals in order to play with 2 superstars. Durant was in a worse situation, theres a reason OKC wasnt in the Finals or even conference finals every year like Lebron was

- - - Updated - - -

o me, this series solidifies Bron as the GOAT. Further proving that others in the GOAT discussion had a ton of help, Bron has really only seemed to have 1 in his prime star during his career.

Wade? Irving? Bosh? Love? I dont see how you can see these players werent in the prime of their careers when they were on his team. Just because there stats may or may not have dipped, a huge part of that is going to be Lebrons ball dominance and going from #1 options down to #2 or #3

[Blueobelisk]

Lebron needs the ball in his hands to be dominant. He's not that great off the ball, like Durant.

I've never really seen him in a position where he had good teammates that could distribute the ball so I'm not even sure if that's true. If I had to guess, if he had a good team with good team passing, he could score 40 points a night by running into the paint. But that requires, you know, a system where lanes open up and players can draw defenders. He hasn't had that.

Basketball is more than a 2D game.

I mean if Lebron went to a good team like the 73 wins Warriors, then the Warriors would't play like the Warriors we know for 3/4 years now. They wouldn't play Warriors basketball anymore, they would play the "Lebron system" where he' got the ball in his hand, attack the rim and either take the shot or pass to an open shooter.

The Warriors didn't play 73 win basketball this year lol. They went from being super gel'ed and meshed where the core were all spectacular and the role players did their parts, to KD and Steph doing all the scoring with Draymond and Klay actually becoming role players who just had to chip in a few points as long as they played defense.

And don't tell me teams can't play unselfish basketball, LMA went from like 45 PPG average in a series in the playoffs to going to the Spurs and Pop telling him to play in the system. It all depends on good coaching and the quality of the rest of the team.

coach Lue is a puppet.

I already called him a pussy, you're not telling me anything new.

And yeah KD scores effectively. give me that. He's also 7f tall with an airbus wingspan, can move his feet to stay in front of Lebron and did a 5 blocks game in the finals after averaging almost 2 blocks a game in the season. He's not just a scorer.

Yeah he's really talented. W/e.

[Deleted]

So many weapons on GS, that if one role player does anything, there is NO chance. Like last night, it was Iggy that was that bonus. Klay day, Stephanie, Scrotum Cop and KD... 2 or 3 can have a "bad" night and you have a bench dude roll up a 20 piece and you won't win.

Cavs bench is just inconsistent. Those are some legit solid role players, but you can't expect 20 a night from JR or Korver, else they'd not be role players but stars.

To me, this series solidifies Bron as the GOAT. Further proving that others in the GOAT discussion had a ton of help, Bron has really only seemed to have 1 in his prime star during his career.

so for golden state scoring 20 off the bench you are still a bench dude but if it's for Cleveland you must be a star?

this is Lebron apologist proving haters point. GSW play as a team, Cavs is a bunch of individuals waiting for Lebron to do something. So when you score 20 out of warriors bench it's because of the system but if you do it out of cavs bench you are a star because it's so hard to do with Lebron on your team.

Lebron Dwarf his teammates. he doesn't make them better. Kyrie is one of his victim. Wade was a victim also. just look at their stats. Both players stats suffer(ed) when playing with Lebron. Kyrie should score 4/5 more points and 3/4 more assists per game. now he is just a one on one player.... look at K.Love from the wolves to the cavs, Bosh from the raptors to the heat. and this is just because Lebron's play style. He's so good it's a flaw, every team with Lebron have to play the same, it's predictable and now he lost his fifth NBA finals.

MJ's the GOAT. He dwarfed his teammates but still won every NBA finals he played, beating every superstars he met, because he could play FOR a coach and accept systems. LeBron got to much power, he pushed for discutable trade (Shumpert, J.R.), pushed for Tristan big contract, cried for a playmaker (Deron Williams lol), make the coach useless, etc, etc, ..... If he got bad teammates, it's partly his own fault (and the Cavs who gives him anything he ask), and good luck to get rid of those terrible contract and try to upgrade.