EU Army?

[Kellhound]

That much I'm willing to concede, especially considering they were better equipped than the Germans and that the Poles were pretty fierce. But it's time to ditch the notion that they folded like a garden chair.

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Along those lines, can you give me an overview how the personal union with Hungary is taught? Just wondering. We don't learn much about Croatians in the period except that we got along with those nice Croatians until Jelacic came to smash our revolution. Even the nationality of the Zrinskis is often conveniently overlooked.

When you look at the numbers, yes, France folded like a lawn chair. They had more tanks, more guns, and the same number of troops. They should not have lost at all. The fact the French navy didnt sail for England alone makes the French worthy of scorn.

[caervek]

I do not see it that way and here is why.

Without the UK, the EU mainland army, air force, and navy have serious flaws.

No more than they do with the UK still involved really.

Who is going to provide the MBT on a huge eastern front? France? Italy and Greece have MBT but as I mentioned both countries are underfunded and the EU would to have to seriously put their chips all in to fund those two respective countries MBT units.

The EU forces currently have ~5544 MBT's combined, of which 227 belong to the UK, that's still 5317 once the UK leaves.

By comparison the only countries with more MBTs than the EU are China, the USA and Russia (and if Ukraine ever joined the EU it would only be Russia). Not that they would be able to get them all there in an invasion.

Air force? EU without the UK has what France, Nederlands and Greece (lets throw in Italy too) and then a bag of rocks.

The EU combined forces have ~1750 modern fighter jets, of which ~250 are British. It will be a loss when we leave but still a phenomenal force, I.E the EU would still have more than a 2:1 numbers advantage over Russia (plus a "the planes are actually working" advantage lol).

Navy? Without the Brits the EU Navy would have to heavily rely on Portugal, Spain and France. Italian and Greek respective Navies are defensive in nature and not that good at all in projecting force.

Navy isn't really relevant in the 21st century unless you want to attack countries on the other side of the planet, which is irrelevant for a defensive force.

[Deleted]

The British will be a significant military power again when they decided to start taking things seriously for the first time in 15 years and open their wallets.

Yeah thanks for the advice from a guy whose country wastes trillions on wars and is unable to subdue small numbers of medieval savages using homemade explosives and soviet-era weaponry.

You see that's precisely who we should take advice from. It is like boxing. Everyone knows the best person to learn from is the 180-pound guy getting the shit kicked out of him by a midget.

[Wikiy]

Along those lines, can you give me an overview how the personal union with Hungary is taught?

The highlights are the 1102 union, the 1527 election by our Parliament of Ferdinand as king, which sort of shifted our loyalties permanently, and, as you mention, the whole Jelačić business. We mentioned our relationship with Hungary all the time, but most of these things were rather complex and I didn't remember a lot of it.

Just wondering. We don't learn much about Croatians in the period except that we got along with those nice Croatians until Jelacic came to smash our revolution. Even the nationality of the Zrinskis is often conveniently overlooked.

I at least hope Hungarians are taught about the Ottoman wars and where in Europe they were stopped.

[Kellhound]

No more than they do with the UK still involved really.



The EU forces currently have ~5544 MBT's combined, of which 227 belong to the UK, that's still 5317 once the UK leaves.

By comparison the only countries with more MBTs than the EU are China, the USA and Russia (and if Ukraine ever joined the EU it would only be Russia). Not that they would be able to get them all there in an invasion.



The EU combined forces have ~1750 modern fighter jets, of which ~250 are British. It will be a loss when we leave but still a phenomenal force, I.E the EU would still have more than a 2:1 numbers advantage over Russia (plus a "the planes are actually working" advantage lol).



Navy isn't really relevant in the 21st century unless you want to attack countries on the other side of the planet, which is irrelevant for a defensive force.

A Navy is just as relevant, if not more so, today. Unless you think the UK is self-sufficient?

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This is really crucial. An EU Army would not be meant to project power in the pacific or the South Atlantic. Any Navy it did have would be patrolling the Mediterranean, the Baltic Sea and probably the Arctic, all sailing within small distance from port. It would not be used for projection because anyone that would hurt us is right across the border.

Four words: Sea Lanes of Communication.

[Kellhound]

Do you think the EU Navy would need to guarantee the Sea Lines between Europe and the Americas? I mean the other line of communication that is of value is Red Sea-Indian Ocean-South China sea. I think the South China sea would get mighty crowded if we tried to join the US and China there.

So, you are back to depending on the US to defend EU interests.

[Flarelaine]

I at least hope Hungarians are taught about the Ottoman wars and where in Europe they were stopped.

Well, of course, that gets a lot of space. Croats are either mentioned as standing shoulder to shoulder to us heroically or merely understood to have done that as part of Hungary anyway, depending on the author.

The Zrinskis always get their chapters, though (books use Hungarian versions of their name, sorry).

[caervek]

A Navy is just as relevant, if not more so, today. Unless you think the UK is self-sufficient?

What does the UK have to do with it?

The EU does not need a navy to defend from Russia.

[Slant]

Germany is content to sit on the sidelines and twiddle their thumbs by selling their domestically designed MBT to other European countries. But Germany isn't serious when it comes to MBT build up for their own forces which is odd given their relative geography in Europe.


1. Germany needs to make the commitment to not only fund but develop forces given its geography and stop relying on its neighbor Poland to bear most of the responsibility.

Thing about Germany is... if you want us to be the bulk of your EU army, you're going to have to beg us for it. We've been pretty bad to everyone around us everytime we had a huge army. Oh, we can get a huge ass army in no time. Not a problem, but we don't want to. Because we don't want to make people nervous. So you will have to actually convince us to do this. Because public opinion of armed forces in Germany is generally rather low. We won't do it on our own, because we democratically do not see a reason to do so. We'd rather just get along with everyone and profit the fuck out of everyone that is stupid enough to make deals with us (and by extension, the EU).

Until then... we're happy to just research and develop. Those tanks we're selling to Turkey? Old A1s that were going to get scrapped. Those aren't a danger. It's the A7 that's the apex of modern MBTs. As an acquaintance of mine (ex-Tank commander) said recently, the only thing that can kill an A7 is an A7. We have the tech, but you'll need to beg us to bulking up. That's how it is.

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This is really crucial. An EU Army would not be meant to project power in the pacific or the South Atlantic. Any Navy it did have would be patrolling the Mediterranean, the Baltic Sea and probably the Arctic, all sailing within small distance from port. It would not be used for projection because anyone that would hurt us is right across the border.

I don't think the German navy agrees with you. Their latest frigate being designed for long-range missions.

[Kellhound]

What does the UK have to do with it?

The EU does not need a navy to defend from Russia.

You didnt specify that your comment only applied to continental Europe and not to the various islands dependant on maritime traffic for their very survival.

Until the Russians interdict maritime traffic in the Pacific/Indian oceans.......

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Thing about Germany is... if you want us to be the bulk of your EU army, you're going to have to beg us for it. We've been pretty bad to everyone around us everytime we had a huge army. Oh, we can get a huge ass army in no time. Not a problem, but we don't want to. Because we don't want to make people nervous. So you will have to actually convince us to do this. Because public opinion of armed forces in Germany is generally rather low. We won't do it on our own, because we democratically do not see a reason to do so. We'd rather just get along with everyone and profit the fuck out of everyone that is stupid enough to make deals with us (and by extension, the EU).

Until then... we're happy to just research and develop. Those tanks we're selling to Turkey? Old A1s that were going to get scrapped. Those aren't a danger. It's the A7 that's the apex of modern MBTs. As an acquaintance of mine (ex-Tank commander) said recently, the only thing that can kill an A7 is an A7. We have the tech, but you'll need to beg us to bulking up. That's how it is.

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I don't think the German navy agrees with you. Their latest frigate being designed for long-range missions.

Germany sold Turkey over 350 A4s. As for the A7s, they still have a very nasty shot trap funneling incoming rounds to the turret ring, worse than the M1A3.

[Deleted]

A Navy is just as relevant, if not more so, today. Unless you think the UK is self-sufficient?

Even if the EU wanted an army with significant power projection capabilities, it would not need a large navy (on par with the US i mean), all the interesting places to project force is after all rather close to the EU.

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I don't think the German navy agrees with you. Their latest frigate being designed for long-range missions.

yeah a frigate can't really project force in the strategic sense.

[Kellhound]

Even if the EU wanted an army with significant power projection capabilities, it would not need a large navy (on par with the US i mean), all the interesting places to project force is after all rather close to the EU.

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yeah a frigate can't really project force in the strategic sense.

So the Indian and Pacific oceans are not interesting nor are they important.....

If it is armed with long range missiles, it can (though it is my understanding the Sachsens only have tactical length Mk41s).

[Deleted]

So the Indian and Pacific oceans are not interesting nor are they important.....

Not really no.
You are the ones who needs those sea lanes kept open, the EU could run everything on land or on shore going crafts - It would not need a fleet of aircraft carriers to project force.

[Kellhound]

Not really no.
You are the ones who needs those sea lanes kept open, the EU could run everything on land or on shore going crafts - It would not need a fleet of aircraft carriers to project force.

LOL, I see logistics are not your strong suit.

[Slant]

Germany sold Turkey over 350 A4s. As for the A7s, they still have a very nasty shot trap funneling incoming rounds to the turret ring, worse than the M1A3.

Yeah, so? A4s are up for scrapyards, too. Really, they're trashcans by today's standards.

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yeah a frigate can't really project force in the strategic sense.

Not on its own, no. But that's not the purpose of a frigate. All I'm saying is that they don't intend to just skipper around the pond of the Baltic Sea.

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LOL, I see logistics are not your strong suit.

Well, the EU has the distinct advantage that trade is coming to us. We don't need to secure the Pacific, because it's the Pacific country's interest to come to us.

[Deleted]

LOL, I see logistics are not your strong suit.

The US needs the pacific and Atlantic oceans to be open to them, else, they are cut of from the world.
Eurasia is the world, if it does not have the Atlantic and the Pacific, its not cut off from the world.
A putative EU Navy would look quite different to the US navy.

[Independent voter]

What is more of a roadblock to an EU army? Defense contractors in each country? Like Mirage in France? Or a fear of German military might?

Or economics versus recent history?

[Deleted]

What is more of a roadblock to an EU army? Defense contractors in each country? Like Mirage in France? Or a fear of German military might?

Or economics versus recent history?

There are multiple roadblocks, but the current one is the necessary consolidation of the European defense industry (that's been a project for decades already).
And that's what they are talking about now, and trying to make a concerted push.
if you are any good with the search feature and are interested, @Skroe wrote up a decent post on the matter a few months ago i believe.

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The fact that consolidation would mean significant unemployment. Which imo could be alleviated by advocating mergers.

it wouldn't be possible.
Some of it is excess capacity that needs to go, and in some cases, its necessary to stop building a certain boat type anywhere but one place and make that place larger.
To preserve the job's you would have to move Frenchmen to Germany or the Netherlands, well you get the deal.
Currently Sweden builds top notch diesel Submarines.
So does the Dutch, and the Germans (and quite possibly someone i'm forgetting).
In a consolidated world, two of those needs to stop.
For some that's going to be very painful. (for those who are confused, this is per capita).

[Slant]

What is more of a roadblock to an EU army? Defense contractors in each country? Like Mirage in France? Or a fear of German military might?

Or economics versus recent history?

The biggest roadblock is job and labor markets. Every country more or less produces the bulk of their own hardware. Some more, like Germany, some less, like Sweden, who buy from other nations.

If you took away the frigates from Germany and told Germany to only use British frigates from now on, you'd be putting 10s of thousands of shipyard workers on the street. That's what Germany would want to avoid. This thinking is prevalent in every nation. It's simple economics and political thinking.

There's a way around that. But it involves sharing licenses, plans and the fruit of years and years of highly specialised high tech research with other nations. That needs a lot of trust.

[Flarelaine]

... and profit the fuck out of everyone that is stupid enough to make deals with us (and by extension, the EU).

Don't feed Cy... I mean, the trolls.