Disc nerf

[Deleted]

Though, damage proc trinkets were not nerfed by 50% for Disc, more closer to 75%.

Singletarget trinkets do 45% of their regular damage as disc.

Aoe trinkets do 33% of their regular damage as disc.

[pseudoJ]

I doubt that's true, considering disc priest has multiple legendaries which directly increase its dps, and talents that do the same.

I would be shocked if other healers did comparable dps to disc next patch (assuming everyone is trying to go MAX damage).

Are you really going to stand by this statement while holy paladins are still in the game? Overall you are likely right, however if we talk just max dps with some secondary healing paladins will still be supreme to everyone else.

[Dracodraco]

Are you really going to stand by this statement while holy paladins are still in the game? Overall you are likely right, however if we talk just max dps with some secondary healing paladins will still be supreme to everyone else.

Difference is that the more DPS a disc priest does, the more healing they do - as a mechanic. The more DPS a paladin does, the less healing they do (because they sac their big instant heal etc on damage rather than healing). Paladins can do better burst, but have none of the "sustain" of a disc priest. A disc could pretty much solo heal the raid on Elisande Mythic progress in P1 for the first MINUTE of the fight, because with bloodlust + zone haste buff, their damage was so high that they put out 2M+ HPS for extended periods of time. It's OK if other healers can burst for short periods better than disc can, as long as they don't gain healing from it.

[pseudoJ]

Difference is that the more DPS a disc priest does, the more healing they do - as a mechanic. The more DPS a paladin does, the less healing they do (because they sac their big instant heal etc on damage rather than healing). Paladins can do better burst, but have none of the "sustain" of a disc priest. A disc could pretty much solo heal the raid on Elisande Mythic progress in P1 for the first MINUTE of the fight, because with bloodlust + zone haste buff, their damage was so high that they put out 2M+ HPS for extended periods of time. It's OK if other healers can burst for short periods better than disc can, as long as they don't gain healing from it.

You don't say.. now please reread my post . Mend was talking about going for maximum damage and I even stated that in standard healing situation he is right (no that one encounter you listed is not a standard healing situation).

[Supliftz]

I can't show you a bluepost since there isn't one to my knowledge. But I did link the developer interview from Gamescom 2015 (link ~ 15:00) where the statement stems from, so yes they did. After the statement was made there even was a lengthy thread in the mmo-champion priest forum, how that statement is to be interpreted (link), since a Hybrid Healer that has an equal output in damage and healing simply wouldn't work in WoW. The conclusion that some players drew was, that the 50/50 statement doesn't apply to damage/healing, but rather to spellusage, i.e. you cast around the same number of damage spells and healing spells. Fell free to check your own logs, or those of others. It is exactly what we got.

Your post is what I meant. I don't think Blizzard ever stated that disc would do less healing because of its damage. In fact, from memory, a lot of the posts by blizzard talked about how its more focused on healing in a group raid setting.

I'm 99% positive they were talking about an offensive playstyle with spell selection, and when you look at disc priest like that, the statement makes sense. Certainly

The problem with that 50/50 statement is that if you take it the wrong way and see discipline as a hybrid healer, you want damage to be competitive.
But that isn't Blizzards goal. The damage is just an additional bonus.
Because of balancing issues, discipline priest damage can't ever be competitive. If it were, our healing would have to be severely nerfed. That would completely kill the spec for higher mythic+ levels. Additionally if Blizzard were to implement an AoE spell, it's healing can't scale with the amount of enemies. A small example why: Let's say the AoE spell becomes more efficient than the single target spell at 5 targets. That basically means that any additional enemy after 5 targets is basically invisible to the healer, since the additional enemy buffs both incoming damage and outgoing healing by 20%. I.e. especially in mythic+ you would always try to have more than 5 targets but not more than 20 (AoE spells in WoW are capped at 20 for those that don't know) since everything above 5 is virtually invisible.
That leaves us with an already quite full toolkit of spells without any room for more spells and a spell that doesn't improve the core function of the spec (Healing).
Why should Blizzard implement that? The spec is already one of the more complex ones in the game and an additional spell to improve the by choice minuscule damage wouldn't help with that

You're sorta right, however, adding an AoE DPS spell does improve the healing of the kit. Look at any boss with multiple targets. Purge the Wicked goes from being anywhere between 10-15% of the total hps, to outhealing penance. This type of mob scaling is extremely difficult to balance. Blizzard pretty much has to assume the majority of the value of purge the wicked comes from the free cleave it does, which is why the talent is such a minor increase in total power over SW:P.

This is only mob scaling for 1 spell you cast a couple of times every 20 seconds. What would happen if you introduce an aoe dps filler spell? Well basically you would put up atonements, and spam this spell over all alternatives. Monks had this problem in MoP with Blackout kick. 4 target Blackout Kick was simply better than all alternatives in terms of raw hps and practicality.

The other alternative is to make it not proc atonement, or make it only proc atonement once. But both of these alternatives are bad. Why would you cast a dps spell that doesn't proc atonement in any scenario where you need to increase someone's health bar? Why would I want to cast this over smite? As for only proccing atonement once, look to divine star for an example of what happens with this solution. Divine Star costs x4 as much as smite, and does less atonement healing both times it hits. Truly a horrible spell.

AoE DPS spells simply don't work. They're either grossly overpowered, or are irrelevant to the newly buffed 0.5% mana smite.

----

Btw I do think DPS scaling works for disc. The talent Schism, smite belt, holy bracers, twist of fate ring all provide solid dps scaling to disc without it effecting raid balance. In a 5 man with sub-optimal dps talents i'm doing similar ST damage to tanks currently, and I fully expect to dominate tanks in 5 mans in a world where all the dps spells are better, and cost less (so talent is justifiable), and we have set bonuses/stronger dps legos that increase dps, and provide better dps respectively. It's perfectly fine for a spec to do less dps when it is focusing on healing as a priority, I mean we are healers.

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Are you really going to stand by this statement while holy paladins are still in the game? Overall you are likely right, however if we talk just max dps with some secondary healing paladins will still be supreme to everyone else.

I don't think using farm logs of extremely short bosses and overgeared content is a good way of judging disc dps in relation to other healers.

[makketota]

Pain Suppression is currently the strongest singletarget cooldown ingame. It negates 60% of the incoming damage.

Pain Supression has been 40% for a long time, I do remember it beeing 60% at some point though.

[anon5123]

Pain Supression has been 40% for a long time, I do remember it beeing 60% at some point though.

With artifact talents, it's 40% + heals for 33% of damage taken during it.

[Geschan]

That's exactly what I'm trying to point out. A true AoE spell without any limitations on atonement healing is a bad idea.
The only way an AoE spell could work is, if the "AoE" part scales really bad or if it is only interesting as damage increase without any changes in healing or mana efficiency. Perfect examples for spells with really bad AoE scaling are SW:P and PtW. While they do benefit from multiple enemies the amount of bonus damage and healing is capped pretty tight. Even in a perfect scenario you can't even double the dps by supplementing smite with SW:P. PTW is a 60% damage increase and a free GCD every 9 seconds. If you supplement smite with PtW in the perfect scenario you have at best 3.5 times the damage. That's it.
Compared to what other AoE spells in the game are able to dish out with that many targets SW:P and PtW are insanely limited in performance.
I agree with you on Divine Star and I would put Halo in the same boat. They are horrible spells. I'm really happy that we are able to pick PtW now instead of Halo.

On the DPS scaling I have to disagree. The problem is the not the static buffs you mentioned. The problem is the damage increase through additional stats compared to other classes. In general dps is calculated as base*int*crit*haste*mastery*versatility. The problem with discipline is that damage is not affected by mastery. And since the mastery % value is getting bigger and bigger the higher the ilvl gets the worse the situation gets.
Small example:
Gear A: 10% crit/haste/mastery/versatility
Gear B: 20% crit/haste/mastery/versatility
Spell A full scaling
Spell B no mastery
Spell A Gear A = base*int*1.1^4 = base*int*1,4641
Spell A Gear B = base*int*1.2^4 = base*int*2,0736 => ~42% damage increase through secondary stats.
Spell B Gear A = base*int*1.1^3 = base*int*1,331
Spell B Gear B = base*int*1.2^3 = base*int*1,728 => ~29% damage increase through secondary stats.
That's the scaling issue.
Our damage might be ok now, but on the long run Blizzard will have to further buff values to counteract the missing mastery scaling.
Or they could simply switch mastery to damage increase without a direkt healing increase and be done with it.

[Supliftz]

On the DPS scaling I have to disagree. The problem is the not the static buffs you mentioned. The problem is the damage increase through additional stats compared to other classes. In general dps is calculated as base*int*crit*haste*mastery*versatility. The problem with discipline is that damage is not affected by mastery. And since the mastery % value is getting bigger and bigger the higher the ilvl gets the worse the situation gets.
Small example:
Gear A: 10% crit/haste/mastery/versatility
Gear B: 20% crit/haste/mastery/versatility
Spell A full scaling
Spell B no mastery
Spell A Gear A = base*int*1.1^4 = base*int*1,4641
Spell A Gear B = base*int*1.2^4 = base*int*2,0736 => ~42% damage increase through secondary stats.
Spell B Gear A = base*int*1.1^3 = base*int*1,331
Spell B Gear B = base*int*1.2^3 = base*int*1,728 => ~29% damage increase through secondary stats.
That's the scaling issue.
Our damage might be ok now, but on the long run Blizzard will have to further buff values to counteract the missing mastery scaling.
Or they could simply switch mastery to damage increase without a direkt healing increase and be done with it.

You're completely ignoring the fact that Disc Priest gets 0.65% more dps per trait. This is how they keep DPS scaling of disc equal to DPS scaling.

[Iatros]

You're completely ignoring the fact that Disc Priest gets 0.65% more dps per trait. This is how they keep DPS scaling of disc equal to DPS scaling.

Do u know if that .65% still applies above 52 traits and, if it does, does the extra dmg transfer to attonement heal?
I am not really sure, but i belive that on 7.1 de extra dmg from the stacking points on the weapon did not transfered to attonement heal

[Saiyoran]

The other alternative is to make it not proc atonement, or make it only proc atonement once. But both of these alternatives are bad. Why would you cast a dps spell that doesn't proc atonement in any scenario where you need to increase someone's health bar?

Why do druids have swipe? Why do hpriests have holy nova? Why do monks have sck? Why do rshams have chain lightning?

Doesn't need to be an hps increase to be a nice addition to a healer's kit. Doesn't even have to be a spell you ever press in a raid.

[Nurasu]

Do u know if that .65% still applies above 52 traits and, if it does, does the extra dmg transfer to attonement heal?
I am not really sure, but i belive that on 7.1 de extra dmg from the stacking points on the weapon did not transfered to attonement heal

It does not; which also brings us back to the fact it doesn't scale anywhere near as much as a damage component from Mastery would.

[Iatros]

You're completely ignoring the fact that Disc Priest gets 0.65% more dps per trait. This is how they keep DPS scaling of disc equal to DPS scaling.

Do you continue to gain stamina per point past 52 in concordance?
Yes, your health increases at a reduced rate compared to prior points. However, tank + healer bonus damage doesn't increase after point 52. (WarcraftDevs)

[Supliftz]

Why do druids have swipe? Why do hpriests have holy nova? Why do monks have sck? Why do rshams have chain lightning?

Doesn't need to be an hps increase to be a nice addition to a healer's kit. Doesn't even have to be a spell you ever press in a raid.

You're asking blizzard to purposefully add button bloat.

This isn't going to happen.

You're also missing a pretty key factor here. Those dps spells don't proc healing, and what you're asking for is an aoe dps spell that doesn't proc atonement, which doesn't make sense in a healer designed to do healing from their damage.

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Do u know if that .65% still applies above 52 traits and, if it does, does the extra dmg transfer to attonement heal?
I am not really sure, but i belive that on 7.1 de extra dmg from the stacking points on the weapon did not transfered to attonement heal

That doesn't increase atonement hps yes. all that does is keep disc priest dps relevant as dps gain more traits/gear scaling.

[Noradin]

That doesn't increase atonement hps yes. all that does is keep disc priest dps relevant as dps gain more traits/gear scaling.

But they also scale with those traits, so really, we are one factor short and Blizzard will need to visit the issue again and again to bandaid it.

[anon5123]

You're asking blizzard to purposefully add button bloat.

This isn't going to happen.

adding 1 ability to 1 spec is not "button bloat" you dingdong

plus, we've already been pruned in WoD and then pruned again in this expac, so I really don't see an issue with adding 1 spell back.

[MendUS]

adding 1 ability to 1 spec is not "button bloat" you dingdong

plus, we've already been pruned in WoD and then pruned again in this expac, so I really don't see an issue with adding 1 spell back.

I used to be a proponent for adding in a "free" non-atonement AoE for Disc... however these changes for the spec already fill our GCD's up with either applying Atonement via Plea/Smend, or casting a DPS spell via Penance or Smite, that there isn't really time to use something else in AoE situations. I think it's perfectly fine that we are single-target with some ability to AoE through DoT's. Like someone else already said, other healing specs have AoE spells at their disposal. I'd rather not have any more homogenization than we already have with other specs (old MW, some Druid mechanics, etc).

[anon5123]

I used to be a proponent for adding in a "free" non-atonement AoE for Disc... however these changes for the spec already fill our GCD's up with either applying Atonement via Plea/Smend, or casting a DPS spell via Penance or Smite, that there isn't really time to use something else in AoE situations. I think it's perfectly fine that we are single-target with some ability to AoE through DoT's. Like someone else already said, other healing specs have AoE spells at their disposal. I'd rather not have any more homogenization than we already have with other specs (old MW, some Druid mechanics, etc).

"homogenization" ? Really? Giving Disc a basic, useful tool is "homogenization" now? Even though it doesn't affect the rest of the spec, which is still unique from the other healers?

come on

Not sure why so many people are opposed to a quality of life change.

[Popokolara]

"homogenization" ? Really? Giving Disc a basic, useful tool is "homogenization" now? Even though it doesn't affect the rest of the spec, which is still unique from the other healers?

come on

Not sure why so many people are opposed to a quality of life change.

Adding a completely new spell that you somehow decided would be cool to have is not quality of life change. Maybe we are not supposed to be able to aoe dps apart from multi dot. Likely. Probably. Evidently.

[MendUS]

"homogenization" ? Really? Giving Disc a basic, useful tool is "homogenization" now? Even though it doesn't affect the rest of the spec, which is still unique from the other healers?

come on

Not sure why so many people are opposed to a quality of life change.

Yes, adding in a DPS spell just because other spec's have a DPS spell is in some way homogenization, not sure how you can debate that it isn't. I think we're fine not having an AoE since we can multi-dot effectively. There hasn't been any content besides clearing old raids where I said "man, I really need AoE here". In those situations, just respec holy.