Why doesn't Bolvar find and recruit Kel'thuzad?

[rogoth]

The light doesn't really care whether its user is evil or not, though. All that matter is whether they have enough willpower or faith in their ability to use the light.

that's not how "the light" works, it is a sentient force, if you have true faith in your cause and wield the light, the light will continue to allow you to use its power, if for whatever reason you stop believing in your cause, then the light will forsake you, in my example of the scarlet crusade, they have tortured many people and killed countless others in the name of the light, something considered "evil" by most peoples standards and yet they are still able to wield the light because of their conviction and believing they are justified in their actions.

[Qualia]

that's not how "the light" works, it is a sentient force, if you have true faith in your cause and wield the light, the light will continue to allow you to use its power, if for whatever reason you stop believing in your cause, then the light will forsake you, in my example of the scarlet crusade, they have tortured many people and killed countless others in the name of the light, something considered "evil" by most peoples standards and yet they are still able to wield the light because of their conviction and believing they are justified in their actions.

What I said is exactly how the Light works, though, as stated by Blizzard themselves in Ask CDev:

Without spoiling too much, we can tell you that wielding the Light is a matter of having willpower or faith in one's own ability to do it. That's why there are evil paladins (for example, the Scarlet Crusade and Arthas before he took up Frostmourne). For the undead (and Forsaken), this requires such a great deal of willpower that it is exceedingly rare, especially since it is self-destructive. When undead channel the Light, it feels (to them) as if their entire bodies are being consumed in righteous fire. Forsaken healed by the Light (whether the healer is Forsaken or not) are effectively cauterized by the effect: sure, the wound is healed, but the healing effect is cripplingly painful. Thus, Forsaken priests are beings of unwavering willpower; Forsaken (and death knight) tanks suffer nobly when they have priest and paladin healers in the group; and Sir Zeliek REALLY hates himself.

In fact, there hasn't been any solid confirmation from Blizzard that said the Light (or the Void) itself is a sentient force - feel free to give me the quote if I missed it somewhere. There are sentient beings made of pure light / void energy (i.e: the Naaru, the Void Lords, etc), but I don't think it was stated that the Light and Void themselves are sentient.

In case of the Scarlet Crusade, they could wield the Light because they have faith in their ability to do so (in simpler words, they reallly believe that they can use the Light). It's not just a case of believing in your cause or not, or else Zeliek wouldn't be able to use the Light (he was fully aware that he was doing evil acts because of the LK's control and he hated himself for that). Or in another example, Goblin priests use the Light purely just by their willpower driven by greed, not any kind of justice or righteousness. There is also that Titanforged one (I forgot his name) who had to be granted enough willpower by the Pantheon to use the Light.

[Aquamonkey]

There is also that Titanforged one (I forgot his name) who had to be granted enough willpower by the Pantheon to use the Light.

Temple Guardian Anhuur in Halls of Origination.

[rogoth]

What I said is exactly how the Light works, though, as stated by Blizzard themselves in Ask CDev:

Without spoiling too much, we can tell you that wielding the Light is a matter of having willpower or faith in one's own ability to do it. That's why there are evil paladins (for example, the Scarlet Crusade and Arthas before he took up Frostmourne). For the undead (and Forsaken), this requires such a great deal of willpower that it is exceedingly rare, especially since it is self-destructive. When undead channel the Light, it feels (to them) as if their entire bodies are being consumed in righteous fire. Forsaken healed by the Light (whether the healer is Forsaken or not) are effectively cauterized by the effect: sure, the wound is healed, but the healing effect is cripplingly painful. Thus, Forsaken priests are beings of unwavering willpower; Forsaken (and death knight) tanks suffer nobly when they have priest and paladin healers in the group; and Sir Zeliek REALLY hates himself.

In fact, there hasn't been any solid confirmation from Blizzard that said the Light (or the Void) itself is a sentient force - feel free to give me the quote if I missed it somewhere. There are sentient beings made of pure light / void energy (i.e: the Naaru, the Void Lords, etc), but I don't think it was stated that the Light and Void themselves are sentient.

In case of the Scarlet Crusade, they could wield the Light because they have faith in their ability to do so (in simpler words, they reallly believe that they can use the Light). It's not just a case of believing in your cause or not, or else Zeliek wouldn't be able to use the Light (he was fully aware that he was doing evil acts because of the LK's control and he hated himself for that). Or in another example, Goblin priests use the Light purely just by their willpower driven by greed, not any kind of justice or righteousness. There is also that Titanforged one (I forgot his name) who had to be granted enough willpower by the Pantheon to use the Light.

guess i concede you to be right in this case, it used to be as i stated, but with the whole "chronicle" thing and much of the lore being rewritten or changed in such a way that it "fits the story better" this is one that could have been changed from what it used to be.

basically they used the whole arguement of the light being a sentient force and "choosing" to let people wield it as long as their conviction was strong enough to believe that what they were doing was right and just, much in the same way that el'druin works in the diablo universe, the reasoning why when tyrael thrust it into malthael in the RoS cinematic trailer it didn't harm him because the conviction of malthael was that he was doing something noble and justified so the sentient sword left him untouched.

[Aquamonkey]

guess i concede you to be right in this case, it used to be as i stated, but with the whole "chronicle" thing and much of the lore being rewritten or changed in such a way that it "fits the story better" this is one that could have been changed from what it used to be.

That quote is from 2010, way before Chronicle. Warcraft isn't D&D.

[TickTickTick]

We know what Bolivar does at the end of WOTLK. Is the jailer of the Scourge, is not spreading death and raising everyone in undead.

Kel'thuzad will not be loyal to anyone who does not look for that

Yeah that was 7 years ago, or 3 expansions ago, or whatever time in game's lore has passed ago. Everything is corruptable, Bolvar is not some kind embodient of the light immune to all bad. I'm pretty sure he will turn on us sooner or later. I'm still a believer of the theory that Ner'zhul was in fact not destroyed, only acted as one cause Arthas became too dangerous for his cause, and that the ghost of Terenas was Ner'zhul's spirit encouraging us to crown a new lich king (giving him another chance to fully corrupt and use).

I can see an expansion based on the LK return, with opening cinematic being KT licking his wounds (reformed again, but weak), hearing the whispers of familiar voice, venturing into ICC with the cult of the damned, and meeting his beloved master again. Cause IMO the scourge storyarc has not been finished yet, not with this 'there must always be a lich king' and bolvar existing.

[Benomatic]

Hopefully we get a Lich King which is evil. Bolvar doesn't suit.

[Deleted]

Hopefully we get a Lich King which is evil. Bolvar doesn't suit.

don´t see it going straight for another evil Lich King, but i definitely could see a new Northend expansion featuring Kelthuzad trying to overthrow Bolvar and contesting his control over the scourge. if one Necromancer could put up a fight against the Lich King, it just has to be Kelthuzad.

[anaxie]

Kel thuzad is done. His missing phylactyary is n oversight. Not aurprising considering the copy and pasted the raid.

Case an point. If kelthuzad was not dead. Why not resurrect him and have him hold the line at icecrown?

Exactly

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Yeah that was 7 years ago, or 3 expansions ago, or whatever time in game's lore has passed ago. Everything is corruptable, Bolvar is not some kind embodient of the light immune to all bad. I'm pretty sure he will turn on us sooner or later. I'm still a believer of the theory that Ner'zhul was in fact not destroyed, only acted as one cause Arthas became too dangerous for his cause, and that the ghost of Terenas was Ner'zhul's spirit encouraging us to crown a new lich king (giving him another chance to fully corrupt and use).

I can see an expansion based on the LK return, with opening cinematic being KT licking his wounds (reformed again, but weak), hearing the whispers of familiar voice, venturing into ICC with the cult of the damned, and meeting his beloved master again. Cause IMO the scourge storyarc has not been finished yet, not with this 'there must always be a lich king' and bolvar existing.

Nerzhuls soul that was merged with arthas was consumed by frostmourn

The games story is full throttle heading to nzoth and the void when the legion is destroyed.

Ill give you a spoiler where it goes after that

THE END

[Aucald]

Kel thuzad is done. His missing phylactyary is n oversight. Not aurprising considering the copy and pasted the raid.

Case an point. If kelthuzad was not dead. Why not resurrect him and have him hold the line at icecrown?

Exactly

I would agree with you if Thel'zan the Duskbringer/Inigo Montoy and the story of Kel'thuzad's missing/recovered phylactery weren't a large of the Dragonblight quests back in WotLK. The phylactery and Montoy's involvement with its return to Kel'thuzad was key to a large questline, meaning that despite the copy/paste of the raid the phylactery and its relationship to Kel'thuzad were definitely part of WotLK.

I believe it's a mechanism to put Kel'thuzad effectively "in the cooler" until such a time where they want to bring him back, if ever. It's entirely possible that they won't - they don't really need to, but it wouldn't the first time an older character has found its way back into the story expansions later.

[anaxie]

I would agree with you if Thel'zan the Duskbringer/Inigo Montoy and the story of Kel'thuzad's missing/recovered phylactery weren't a large of the Dragonblight quests back in WotLK. The phylactery and Montoy's involvement with its return to Kel'thuzad was key to a large questline, meaning that despite the copy/paste of the raid the phylactery and its relationship to Kel'thuzad were definitely part of WotLK.

I believe it's a mechanism to put Kel'thuzad effectively "in the cooler" until such a time where they want to bring him back, if ever. It's entirely possible that they won't - they don't really need to, but it wouldn't the first time an older character has found its way back into the story expansions later.

Kel'thuzads return after we destroy the legion is yawn worthy frankly.

we know what the next expansion is already it's too obvious with the scenarios the hints and legions side story.

after that plot comes and goes there is really no where left to go except end it or plough the game through infinite filler arcs because frankly random no name no backstory villans and random places and factions will all be the only thing left. and lets be frank. That is rather low quality. Lets not pretend Legions survival isn't based on the fact it's a Burning Legion expansion featuring all the possible bells and whistles people could ever hope for to go with it's theme.

I'm sure his Urn WASNT forgotten but i think what was forgotten was DEALING with it post raid and then not doing something with Kel'Thuzad is ICC if infact he was not Destroyed considering if the Blood Princes were resurrced you think the #1 priority target for the Cult and Arthas to rez would be the Scourges Cult Leader and his defacto #1 wingman.

Lets not forgot the MASSIVE blunder and backlash about killing Anub'Arak in a 5 man that lead to shoving him into ToC. Wotlk was filled to the brim with cut corners and broken promises. Crystalsong forest? Azjol'Nerub Zone? Copy and Paste intro tier? The clusterfuck cut off Ulduar got for ToC at 3 months.

KT is dead his death being explained is a casualty of poor story telling. Just like how they poorly fiddle fucked around with Archimonde Mythic or how they poorly lore bombed the Warcraft fanbase with hurrr all demons don't die unless in nether not just dreadlords!

Anyway KT is dead. Ner'zhul is doing whatever Arthas's soul is doing in oblivion. they are both done. Bolvar? who knows maybe they will play some hilarious bad guy card. Personally I think if he spotlights as a villan it's cringe and bad taste considering the Lich King people think about when they think Lich King is Arthas. And usually the things they think about are the things he did when he was a Death Knight anyway. The Legacy makes the Villan and Arthas left one hell of a legacy on the warcraft universe. just ask the Forsaken and Blood Elves.

[Hctaz]

Damn I kinda assumed we just dealt with his phylactery the second time around after just giving it to a cult of the damned agent back in vanilla, we're dumb I guess

Well in Vanilla we technically didn't go into Naxx. I think lorewise it was Darion Mograine and some people from the Argent Dawn. So they gave it to him and since he was undead when we did go to Naxx, he probably didn't think to tell us to make sure we destroyed that thing.

[Thimagryn]

If we assume that Kel'Thuzad managed to regain his corporeal form since his defeat in Naxxramas, why doesn't Bolvar send death knights to go find him. Since Bolvar can "feel" the undead, maybe he's also able to "feel" where Kel'thuzad's phylactery is currently hidden.

Kel'thuzad is a catalyst for the return of the Scourge as an enemy. Like Gul'dan was for the return of the Legion. If he enters the story, it will be to undermine Bolvar who is otherwise the only reason why we're at peace.

[anaxie]

Well in Vanilla we technically didn't go into Naxx. I think lorewise it was Darion Mograine and some people from the Argent Dawn. So they gave it to him and since he was undead when we did go to Naxx, he probably didn't think to tell us to make sure we destroyed that thing.

......

The players did Naxx in vanilla. Source? The player giving KT's Urn to the Cult Mole.

[Adoxe]

Kel'thuzad wouldn't side with Bolvar willingly. If anything, we're gonna get another Scourge expansion with Kel'thuzad as the main villain and Bolvar as the main protagonist of the expansion. Scourge Civil War essentially.

[anaxie]

Kel'thuzad is a catalyst for the return of the Scourge as an enemy. Like Gul'dan was for the return of the Legion. If he enters the story, it will be to undermine Bolvar who is otherwise the only reason why we're at peace.

Bringing back to scourge after the cosmic forces of the Legion

YAWN

what more yawn is they would need to re use all of northrend. GL with that.

[Hctaz]

......

The players did Naxx in vanilla. Source? The player giving KT's Urn to the Cult Mole.

I'm not even 100% sure what the story is tbh. I just know that they retconned part of Naxx at the very least with Darion Mograine's character. He and a handful of Argent Dawn volunteers went into Naxx and reclaimed the Corrupted Ashbringer but his entire party was slain by the Four Horsemen in doing so. That makes it sound like they cleared up to and defeated the Four Horsemen though all but him died? Or something. Fuck if I know dude. They really fucked the lore over with those comics.

Reading the comic it looks like they do take out a fair number of bosses in Naxx. So... -shrug- They fight Anub'rekhan, Thaddius, Grobbulus and the Four Horsemen. Looks like they beat all of those at the very least but Kel'thuzad is alive by the end of it.

[Leodok]

Because that would be a very big event. People have been speculating about KT's return for a long time, so it makes sense to wait for the best moment to do it.
When is the best moment, though?
Later in Legion?
In a future Scourge expansion?

[anaxie]

Because that would be a very big event. People have been speculating about KT's return for a long time, so it makes sense to wait for the best moment to do it.
When is the best moment, though?
Later in Legion?
In a future Scourge expansion?

Kel'thuzads return after the destruction of Achimonde / Kil'jaeden/ Sargeras/ and Arthas is anti-climatic.

it's like you destroyed Kil'jaeden and Sargeras but now you face JARAXXUS!!!!! is it possible to eyeroll that hard?

The next expansion is CLEARLY evidentily and obviously going to be azshara and n'zoth black empire theme at this point. if the Void gods are the finale of the expansion can you really shoe horn Kel'thuzad into something after Legion and that as anything credible? I mean you COULD if you want to milk the ever living shit out of the game and drag the story through infinite filler arcs that follow series story finale.

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Because that would be a very big event. People have been speculating about KT's return for a long time, so it makes sense to wait for the best moment to do it.
When is the best moment, though?
Later in Legion?
In a future Scourge expansion?

The event we are living now. The destruction of the entire burning legion followed by the fight for the life of azeroth in 8.0 are very big events. Kel'thuzads return. not so much. not at this point in the story.

[Houle]

Kel'thuzads return after the destruction of Achimonde / Kil'jaeden/ Sargeras/ and Arthas is anti-climatic.

it's like you destroyed Kil'jaeden and Sargeras but now you face JARAXXUS!!!!! is it possible to eyeroll that hard?

The next expansion is CLEARLY evidentily and obviously going to be azshara and n'zoth black empire theme at this point. if the Void gods are the finale of the expansion can you really shoe horn Kel'thuzad into something after Legion and that as anything credible? I mean you COULD if you want to milk the ever living shit out of the game and drag the story through infinite filler arcs that follow series story finale.

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The event we are living now. The destruction of the entire burning legion followed by the fight for the life of azeroth in 8.0 are very big events. Kel'thuzads return. not so much. not at this point in the story.

Maybe thats how you feel, but Blizz and many players won't give a damn. If they think it's cool, they'll do it. And it's just a fact that he's alive.
Also, in Cata we faced Deathwing and some of the most powerful minions of the OGs. After that, in MoP, the villain was Garrosh, who wasn't even close to Deathwings power, even after he drained the heart. This "after the legion, we can't go back to villains like KT" is simply stupid.