Subtlety PvP 7.2.5

[shoegazing]

Words cannot express how big an improvement this is over the literal heap of garbage that was the previous iteration of Legion Subtlety.

It's challenging. It has a high skill cap. It's exciting. It's fun.

I'm losing so many games because I'm not playing anywhere near optimally yet. It's going to take a serious investment of time to master this. Unlike the previous build which could be mastered in under 24 hours of rolling your face on Shadowstrike teleport.

It has actual burst damage, I'm more than just a stunbot for a Mage and a Druid. Dances are a much more precious resource so I can't just spam them out like it doesn't matter, I have to actually think before pressing the button.

To all of the PvP rogues who quit in disgust when Legion was launched or soon after, give it a shot. You will be very happy with the new direction they are taking this spec.

[Deleted]

Huh were the small changes they made enough to make you feel that? This coming from someone who doesn´t pvp apart from world pvp and quests, the changes dont look like they changed that much.

[Deleted]

Huh were the small changes they made enough to make you feel that? This coming from someone who doesn´t pvp apart from world pvp and quests, the changes dont look like they changed that much.

its not about 100% uptime on shadow dance and ss teleport anymore with no burst, its not deadly burst and sub requires a brain again in pvp instead of mindless ss spam

[Terahertz]

Huh were the small changes they made enough to make you feel that? This coming from someone who doesn´t pvp apart from world pvp and quests, the changes dont look like they changed that much.

Not really small changes. A lot of things changed. Compared to previous patch sub got:

* 15% ST dmg increase (Nightblade increases dmg dealt to target by 15%)
* 15% dmg increase for 10 sec through symbol of death
* Dark Shadow increases dmg during SD by 30%
* Last row of honor talents increase crit chance by 35% or increases all damage dealt by 10%.

Adding all those things together Sub burst has increased by 90%-101%~. Those are hardly small changes.

[Deleted]

Not really small changes. A lot of things changed. Compared to previous patch sub got:

* 15% ST dmg increase (Nightblade increases dmg dealt to target by 15%)
* 15% dmg increase for 10 sec through symbol of death
* Dark Shadow increases dmg during SD by 30%
* Last row of honor talents increase crit chance by 35% or increases all damage dealt by 10%.

Adding all those things together Sub burst has increased by 90%-101%~. Those are hardly small changes.

Both of first changes are offset by the loss of old symbols of death buff, pretty much.

[Terahertz]

Both of first changes are offset by the loss of old symbols of death buff, pretty much.

Subtlety damage was increased by 20% baseline to make up for the loss of the old SoD.

[shoegazing]

Both of first changes are offset by the loss of old symbols of death buff, pretty much.

it's not about whether the damage got buffed or nerf it's about the mechanical changes that made the spec more challenging and rewarding and fun

passive pvp talents replaced with active abilities that go on your bars and do interesting things, more planning required in the rotation to set up for an optimal shadow dance burst, 2x charges of shadowstep instead of dumb shadowstrike teleport spam

[Sin Cara]

Both of first changes are offset by the loss of old symbols of death buff, pretty much.

Why are you even commenting when you admitted that you know nothing? As stated above, damage was increased baseline to make up for it.

[Mafic]

Words cannot express how big an improvement this is over the literal heap of garbage that was the previous iteration of Legion Subtlety.

It's challenging. It has a high skill cap. It's exciting. It's fun.

I'm losing so many games because I'm not playing anywhere near optimally yet. It's going to take a serious investment of time to master this. Unlike the previous build which could be mastered in under 24 hours of rolling your face on Shadowstrike teleport.

It has actual burst damage, I'm more than just a stunbot for a Mage and a Druid. Dances are a much more precious resource so I can't just spam them out like it doesn't matter, I have to actually think before pressing the button.

To all of the PvP rogues who quit in disgust when Legion was launched or soon after, give it a shot. You will be very happy with the new direction they are taking this spec.

+1

Good post.

If only we can choose premade templates it would be even better.

[Orpheus66]

So I've held off my Rogue but what I'm hearing is Sub can actually drop people / pressure healers? Will it be the go 2 spec or is Sin still the best?

[shoegazing]

+1

Good post.

If only we can choose premade templates it would be even better.

Agreed -- the power normalization of templates is great for gameplay balance but they should give players more control over the distribution of stats to choose a playstyle that suits them.

For Sub Rogues, Mastery and Crit are ideal stats in PvP for most situations but for casters in particular it would be really nice to have more choice. On my Boomkin alt maybe I am playing with an affliction warlock and I want more Haste for faster Cyclone casts and more rot pressure... but on the other hand maybe I'm playing with a frost mage and I'd like to have more burst damage with Starsurges instead.

So in other words fixing the total sum amount of stats you get in PvP is a good thing, but players should get more control over which stats they want.

[Sin Cara]

After testing it out a bit, I really love the play style.

Been using gloomblade and it is doing tons of damage, and yes, we can pressure healers now a good bit.
In a few 2v2 games, the other team was just rotting down. People are still used to use being wet noodles.

[shoegazing]

So I've held off my Rogue but what I'm hearing is Sub can actually drop people / pressure healers? Will it be the go 2 spec or is Sin still the best?

It's the first day of the patch / season so anyone who claims to know definitively what is best right now is most likely lying.

That being said the early returns look very promising.

[Dryzz]

Words cannot express how big an improvement this is over the literal heap of garbage that was the previous iteration of Legion Subtlety.

It's challenging. It has a high skill cap. It's exciting. It's fun.

I'm losing so many games because I'm not playing anywhere near optimally yet. It's going to take a serious investment of time to master this. Unlike the previous build which could be mastered in under 24 hours of rolling your face on Shadowstrike teleport.

It has actual burst damage, I'm more than just a stunbot for a Mage and a Druid. Dances are a much more precious resource so I can't just spam them out like it doesn't matter, I have to actually think before pressing the button.

To all of the PvP rogues who quit in disgust when Legion was launched or soon after, give it a shot. You will be very happy with the new direction they are taking this spec.

And u still lose against no skill Class like Pala Retry or DK.....PvP is still S**T have a more complex class don't make it better,u still get steamrolled by brainless DMG spam class.

[Deleted]

quick question:
nightstalker - ingame it says it increases dmg while stealthed/danicng by 12%. out of game talent calcs say 50%. which is true, and could it be an option over subterfuge?

[l30n47d0]

I think 50% is for assassin.

[Toogoodman]

Yay! i'm actually going to arena again after the last two depressing seasons.

So now, whats the preferred Talent tree talents and the preferred Honor Talents?

[Terahertz]

I saw a pshero play a match and he was actually doing 400-500k shadowstrikes. That's actually insane damage. I seriously hope blizzard doesn't touch the damage and instead if necessary lowers sub rogue survivability a bit instead. The spec is supposed to be glass cannon-like.

To put the damage into perspective, in WoD that'd be 50ks with ambush and 70ks with eviscerate. In wotlk that'd be 3k ambushes and 4k eviscerates.

Now I'm just waiting whether Thief's Bargain can be a viable option. I really like the idea of 30s Vanishes to make up for the lower SDance uptime for more CC.

[Illana]

This sounds like how rogue was in cata, almost negligible damage outside of dance, but if you got stuck into a full kidney and started hearing the squelching of shadow blades u know u were fucked beyond saving.

[Ashcrack]

Sub is really fun right now that's probably because the damage is kinda crazy, probably gonna get nerfed...