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  1. #81
    I personally think Legion is going to be a high amount of class change as they settle into new class design. 7.0 brought huge sweeping changes, and I imagine we'll still be sorting out the final details into the next expansion
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  2. #82
    I would imagine in most cases you can draw the dividing line for this topic between people who have had their spec buffed or nerfed. For many this would have been a non issue before you would just play a different spec. AP and legendary items have made that much less appealing.
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  3. #83
    Immortal Schattenlied's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GothamCity View Post
    I personally think Legion is going to be a high amount of class change as they settle into new class design. 7.0 brought huge sweeping changes, and I imagine we'll still be sorting out the final details into the next expansion
    Which is why they need to stop making huge sweeping changes to classes that don't need them... Under no circumstances is it a reasonable course of action to take classes they've been working on for 3 years, throw them in the trash and start from scratch when they were approaching decent balance before... Now all they have accomplished is giving us imbalanced crap for another couple years.

    Tweak to perfection, and leave them alone.
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  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    Which is why they need to stop making huge sweeping changes to classes that don't need them... Under no circumstances is it a reasonable course of action to take classes they've been working on for 3 years, throw them in the trash and start from scratch when they were approaching decent balance before... Now all they have accomplished is giving us imbalanced crap for another couple years.

    Tweak to perfection, and leave them alone.
    I agree with you on the design aspect, but unfortunately Blizzard does not, so we'll be dealing with the 7.0 fallout for a while. Classes were getting really tight in terms of performance deltas, and you started to get close to that "bring the player not the class" mantra they spew; then they went and changed it all for class fantasy.
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  5. #85
    Immortal Schattenlied's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GothamCity View Post
    then they went and changed it all for class fantasy.
    Which didn't actually improve class fantasy at all, and in some cases ruined it...


    RIP Hammer of Wrath, you are missed.
    A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    Which didn't actually improve class fantasy at all, and in some cases ruined it...


    RIP Hammer of Wrath, you are missed.
    When they stole Divine Intervention back in wrath (maybe Cata?) they killed my paladin class fantasy.

    I rolled druid in Cata and never went back.
    “You can never get a cup of tea large enough or a book long enough to suit me.”
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  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Embriel View Post
    Back in the day (as recent as MOP tbh) I could always pick a class for the X.0 patch and be happy with that decision of the rest of the expansion until they made major changes for the next expansion.

    Today I can't really be sure if my pick is going to last until the next patch until changes make me have to reconsider, I personally find it exhausting and demotivating not feeling like "this is my main and I'm gonna work on it for the next 2 years".

    Should classes and specs be tampered with less over the course of an expansion?
    Yes. Blizzard have said themselves that one of the issues that make people leave is that their classes change too much.
    Yet they change classes like never befor. It's odd.

  8. #88
    Immortal Schattenlied's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GothamCity View Post
    When they stole Divine Intervention back in wrath (maybe Cata?) they killed my paladin class fantasy.

    I rolled druid in Cata and never went back.

    Yeah, that one hurt too, the Cata revamp was not wonderful... That's also when they took magic cleanse away from Ret and Prot
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  9. #89
    Pit Lord Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    I don't quite get why people are complaining.
    > Community cries when class balance isn't within 5~%
    > Community cries when Blizzard brings classes outside this delta in line a bit better
    > Community cries that they don't feel as powerful now that other classes have been buffed
    > Community cries when content that they don't do is nerfed
    > Community cries when legacy content gets nerfed
    > I cry because everyone is crying
    > etc.
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  10. #90
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    Tuning/tweaking is fine, in combination with the AP/Artifact system it's so far from fine it's ridiculous

  11. #91
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    No and yes. The thing is they made alot of foolish revamps with Legion and they never took the time to sit down and fix all the crap they made. So, yes, more tuning and changing is needed because they haven't done it.

    Though tuning is always welcome. We want things to be balanced.

  12. #92
    The problem now is that they create stuff without any consideration for what it may impact, like set bonuses and trinkets, on top of that everything is exponentially stronger than in every other xpack because of legendaries and artifact weapons. The simplest of tweak can snowball into something stupid af so they have to constantly rebalance everything anytime there's new items or progression in the game, everything is thrown off balance.

    They don't balance only the new stuff, they tweak it while saying "well that's gonna be fine after we fix half the skills of that class".

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    Yeah, that one hurt too, the Cata revamp was not wonderful... That's also when they took magic cleanse away from Ret and Prot
    And they standardized all the healers. You get one fast medium healing spell, one slow small healing spell, and one slow high healing spell. Literally every healer had this I believe.

    Pala: Flash of Light, Holy Light, Divine Light
    Priest: Flash Heal, Heal, Greater Heal
    Shaman: Healing Surge, Healing Wave, Greater Healing Wave
    Druid: Regrowth, Healing Touch, Nourish (this one I'm fuzzy on actually).


    Super annoying >.>
    “You can never get a cup of tea large enough or a book long enough to suit me.”
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  14. #94
    Do you guys even play this game? All classes and specs are closer now than they have ever been. So, no classes are not being tuned too much. How is class balance a bad thing for this game?

  15. #95
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    Lots of PTR stuff just gets removed/changed on Live last minute.

  16. #96
    Pit Lord Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ComputerNerd View Post
    "balance" changes and is impossible to do right from the start.
    Sometimes number tweaks are not enough.
    ComputerNerd, you need to sit down and think about what you just said. Everyone on any MMO forum knows that class design and balance is easy, and people who think it isn't are just being intentionally obtuse. If Blizzard wasn't so incompetent they would be able to balance classes so that they're equal on every encounter, but Ghostcrawler keeps making Mages OP.
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  17. #97
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    Yes it's being changed too much. The problem is that they didn't get close enough at launch so they kind of HAVE to change things during patches or some specs will just be broken.

    What they need to do is stop utterly reworking classes and specs each expansion. I get that not changing at all would be boring, but overhauling 1) alienates some people who really liked how their spec played and 2) they'll never nail it out of the gate so they end up having people play half-done specs during the first part of the expansion and they have to spend resources on fixing their design overhaul.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    Yeah, no, it's not. Content is the easiest way to do that, not taking classes people already enjoy and slaughtering them, potentially angering a large chunk of said class' playerbase... That's a good way to lose customers, not retain them - there are 36 specs in the game for a reason, if someone gets bored of one class/spec they can try another, 36 is more than enough variety.
    History has repeatedly taught us that the playerbase will get angry regardless of what happens, Most recently the classes shifted into something more "identity friendly" which excited everyone until they realized they didn't like the identity (this is neither a here or there, simply an observation) or that the identity was not fun to play with, both are hard to get right for 100% of the playerbase, frankly its impossible to please everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    If they didn't spend resources on revamping classes every expansion that don't need it, and the subsuquent tuning required, they could put all those people on content development, and we would have more content.
    This isn't how game design works at all (I would argue that this applies to design in general). The same people who balance abilities (or animate, create, SFX) are not the same people who do dungeon design, boss encounters, mobs, storytelling, or content creation. Simply shuffling people around will not work, for example you cant simply grab a receptionist and tell them to do flight traffic control. They are literally different specialties.

    I would also add that each expansion is going to need subsequent tuning simply by nature of characters leveling up (although I hate when spells go away)

  19. #99
    Immortal Schattenlied's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrimDesign View Post
    History has repeatedly taught us that the playerbase will get angry regardless of what happens, Most recently the classes shifted into something more "identity friendly" which excited everyone until they realized they didn't like the identity (this is neither a here or there, simply an observation) or that the identity was not fun to play with, both are hard to get right for 100% of the playerbase, frankly its impossible to please everyone.
    Which is just another case of blizzard changing something that didn't need to be changed into something it isn't.

    The classes already had their established fantasies, which people were already fine with, and blizzard went and changed them for no reason at all. For example, no one who actually plays a Paladin would think removing Hammer of Wrath could possibly improve the fantasy of Paladins, it's only logical that it would make the identity worse and that's what blizzard did, and we rightfully berated them for it.

    It was a change that was completely void of logic and never should have happened.


    This isn't how game design works at all (I would argue that this applies to design in general). The same people who balance abilities (or animate, create, SFX) are not the same people who do dungeon design, boss encounters, mobs, storytelling, or content creation. Simply shuffling people around will not work, for example you cant simply grab a receptionist and tell them to do flight traffic control. They are literally different specialties.

    I would also add that each expansion is going to need subsequent tuning simply by nature of characters leveling up (although I hate when spells go away)
    I meant "people" as in employee "slots" in the company. They are currently wasting resources on a class design team that doesn't need to be anywhere near as large as it is, working as often as it is, because they insist on butchering classes every 2 years when they could and should move those resources on to employing more content designers.


    Tweak the classes to perfection, when that's done they move the excess class designers on to other projects (like making new characters for HoTs, or whatever new games they are making), and hire more people to design content.
    A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.

  20. #100
    Pit Lord Sigxy's Avatar
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    I'm fine with them changing things up, often or not, but they still need to keep the core of the class fantasy - and they've kinda messed it up I feel. >-<

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