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  1. #461
    The interesting part to me is this:

    Yes I tested 6, 8 and 10 core. I didn't see any significant difference in clocks between the different core counts. 6 or 8 core might stay few degrees colder but I wouldn't expect higher clocks in general from the CPUs with less cores
    So basically they have the same issue as Ryzen. When the infrastructure is there for more cores, it doesn't matter if they are in use or not, they have the same impact on how much you can overclock.

  2. #462
    2017 - Coffee Lake

    2018 - Cannonlake (die shrink to 10nm)

    2019 - Icelake

    2020 - Tigerlake (this is the one that I'm going to spend my hard earned cash on)
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  3. #463
    The Lightbringer Evildeffy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amalaric View Post
    2017 - Coffee Lake

    2018 - Cannonlake (die shrink to 10nm)

    2019 - Icelake

    2020 - Tigerlake (this is the one that I'm going to spend my hard earned cash on)
    You can strike Cannonlake from that list as it will never see the light of day on desktops and will be rare even on mobile platforms.

    Coffee Lake is currently a question if it's delayed or not.. We don't know yet.

  4. #464
    Quote Originally Posted by Evildeffy View Post
    You can strike Cannonlake from that list as it will never see the light of day on desktops and will be rare even on mobile platforms.

    Coffee Lake is currently a question if it's delayed or not.. We don't know yet.
    I see and maybe Intel won't even manage a 10nm die shrink in 2018?
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  5. #465
    The Lightbringer Evildeffy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amalaric View Post
    I see and maybe Intel won't even manage a 10nm die shrink in 2018?
    For desktop architectures or in general?

    Cannonlake will be the first 10nm product but it simply won't be used in desktops and the question you should be asking is if Ice Lake will be availible in 2018.. Current roadmaps tell us beginning of 2019.

    But who knows.. Intel's been rushing the rest of their roadmaps 2 - 3 quarters earlier after Ryzen's release.. We may see it sooner.

    That said Intel's been having extreme difficulties with 10nm .. And even 14nm as well.. Which is why Coffee Lake will still be 14nm and the same uArch as Kaby Lake.

  6. #466
    Icelake is either 2018 or early 2019

  7. #467
    Quote Originally Posted by Evildeffy View Post
    As you can see der8auer is cooling it.
    Again though the connector may be rated for 336W but the cables in it may not be.

    Regardless if it's at the point of melting it's passed the 300W range for the wires.

    I also never stated having 2 x 8-Pin is an issue, I said it's REQUIRED to operate properly.
    You're judging by mainstream board standards. HEDT boards are expensive for a reason. No HEDT boards I've seen ever had problems like some AM3+ boards had with top FX processors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evildeffy View Post
    Also why do you keep assuming the AMD ThreadRipper is hotter?
    Current designs will work, just require a bracket alteration as most of the coldplates on high-end AIOs are larger than even X299 without issue.

    ThreadRipper, if anything, should be more efficient and cooler than Skylake-X.
    It's not a question of just replacing a coldplate, it will require a whole new design. That's why I said that AMD is better to come up with something (like a reference design). Threadripper might be inherently cooler than Skylake-X but due to the size of the socket it's going to be harder to cool (and no, it doesnt mean bigger surface area, as only actual IHS is going to be bigger, actual dies are going to be smaller).

    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    By that logic, an overclocked 290x should have never been coolable, but yet it was. On cpu though, you may need a good AIO(possibly 360mm), because most air coolers top out at 200-225W.
    GPUs are a whole lot different in this regard. Yes, if graphic adapters had only GPUs cooled and the GPU had drawn 300+W it would be uncoolable with air for sure. If a videocard (as a whole) draws let's say 400W (which a completely plausible number) from the PSU that doesnt mean GPU draws 400W, not even close.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Amalaric View Post
    2017 - Coffee Lake

    2018 - Cannonlake (die shrink to 10nm)

    2019 - Icelake

    2020 - Tigerlake (this is the one that I'm going to spend my hard earned cash on)
    Cannon Lake likely wont show on mainstream desktop (something like what Broadwell did), only on mobile and HEDT. It's likely that we will something else between Coffee Lake and Icelake on mainstream desktop, or maybe just Icelake right away.
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  8. #468
    It's likely that we will something else between Coffee Lake and Icelake on mainstream desktop, or maybe just Icelake right away.
    we havent heard anything about that at all so far, so I would assume it will just be Icelake

    hence this:
    Icelake is either 2018 or early 2019

    plus there was that tweet
    https://twitter.com/intelnews/status/872844756845379584
    Another milestone for 10nm: Cannon Lake on track and we’ve now taped in Ice Lake, our 2nd-generation 10nm product.
    this kind of directly states that Cannonlake will be followed straight by Icelake, and nothing else in-between

  9. #469
    Quote Originally Posted by Life-Binder View Post
    we havent heard anything about that at all so far, so I would assume it will just be Icelake

    this kind of directly states that Cannonlake will be followed straight by Icelake, and nothing else in-between
    We havent heard of Coffee Lake until recently aswell. I guess it largely depends on what the schedule is on Zen2.
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  10. #470
    The Lightbringer Evildeffy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderball View Post
    You're judging by mainstream board standards. HEDT boards are expensive for a reason. No HEDT boards I've seen ever had problems like some AM3+ boards had with top FX processors.
    I wonder if you're reading anything what's being said by 2 people so far.
    The VRM/MOSFET can handle 10C that much is obvious and Intel holds to minimum specs whilst AMD's AM3+ didn't have those specs and mobo makers thought they were funny to allow the FX-9590 to run on their cheaper boards, it cost them.

    The point here is that the cables on PSUs were at the point of becoming bare due to melting insulating plastic.
    In order to prevent this from happening it means that there must be 2 x 8-Pin in order to distribute the load and lower temperatures/load on cables.
    We're talking about an Amperage here that can kill a human being with ease when it becomes that hot and remember that resistance values alter the hotter the cables become.

    I'm not judging by mainstream standards, my own PCs have/are HEDT, I know what they are capable of.

    So just to be sure so you understand this:
    Just because the 8-pin connector is rated that it can receive 28A under 12V load does not mean the cables that go from the PSU to the actual connector are rated as such, hence why the cables were close to red hot melting point and in order to combat that you need at least 2 x 8-Pin to significantly lower the load.
    This is an issue for the 10C when overclocked only at this point now imagine an 18C, you touch that overclock button and you may need to actually make your own EPS cables with thicker AWG values.

    AMD's ThreadRipper should suffer from this the same way as it's still 16C but due to the fact that their silicon may clock lower and that it's more efficient than Intel's it may be less of a "load".

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderball View Post
    It's not a question of just replacing a coldplate, it will require a whole new design. That's why I said that AMD is better to come up with something (like a reference design). Threadripper might be inherently cooler than Skylake-X but due to the size of the socket it's going to be harder to cool (and no, it doesnt mean bigger surface area, as only actual IHS is going to be bigger, actual dies are going to be smaller).
    Again no, because you're not reading what I wrote once again:
    Current cold plates/heatsink base on high-end coolers, air and water, are already large enough to encompass the TR4 socket, the only requirement is to create a bracket so it would fit on it, now since the socket is known in the server world as well as that it's similar to LGA2011/LGA2066 it will likely host the same type of design where no backplate alteration is required and will be mounted on-top of the socket directly.
    No cooler change is necessary unless you really want TR4 only coolers, regardless no basic cooler will be sufficient, like Hyper 212 series, because of the small base.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderball View Post
    GPUs are a whole lot different in this regard. Yes, if graphic adapters had only GPUs cooled and the GPU had drawn 300+W it would be uncoolable with air for sure. If a videocard (as a whole) draws let's say 400W (which a completely plausible number) from the PSU that doesnt mean GPU draws 400W, not even close.
    Technically dual GPU cards adhere to this standard and are capable of being cooled by air, it'll be big but it's doable.
    The HD7990 or R9 295x2 are examples of such where the GPUs alone can pull easily in excess of 450W and be cooled by air.
    Whether you like the noise or not is another matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderball View Post
    Cannon Lake likely wont show on mainstream desktop (something like what Broadwell did), only on mobile and HEDT. It's likely that we will something else between Coffee Lake and Icelake on mainstream desktop, or maybe just Icelake right away.
    Even though Cannonlake will not be a Desktop CPU you are incorrect about the first second part of the first sentence.
    Broadwell WAS available on mainstream desktop but it wasn't there long, it was more expensive and couldn't be clocked as high.
    But it managed to outpace a faster clocked 6700K due to it's L4 cache it had.

    There will be nothing between Cannonlake and Ice Lake, it will go directly to Ice Lake for Desktop CPUs.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderball View Post
    We havent heard of Coffee Lake until recently aswell. I guess it largely depends on what the schedule is on Zen2.
    Coffee Lake was long on the roadmap, but it was supposed to be 10nm and earlier, it was not hidden in any way or form, it's been known for several years.

  11. #471
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evildeffy View Post
    The point here is that the cables on PSUs were at the point of becoming bare due to melting insulating plastic.
    If the PSU is rated for that kind of current and the cables get that hot the either the PSU is lying about its abilities or the cable has a defect.

    .
    We're talking about an Amperage here that can kill a human being with ease
    True, but absolutely irrelevant.

    You can touch the blank cables if you wanted to and nothing would happen, because the current needs to flow *through* your body to be dangerous - not through a wire you're touching, and 12V won't be able to drive a significant current though your (dry) body.

    In fact any current flowing into your mainboard would be deadly if it were to flow though your body as anything above 0.1A can be lethal.
    However since the body has a relatively high resistance none of the voltages present on a mainboard are dangerous, regardless of the current in the wires, simply because of the body's high resistance.

    Just because the 8-pin connector is rated that it can receive 28A under 12V load does not mean the cables that go from the PSU to the actual connector are rated as such, hence why the cables were close to red hot melting point and in order to combat that you need at least 2 x 8-Pin to significantly lower the load
    Which would be a problem with the PSU specification then if it is rated for 28A on that line.
    Last edited by mmoc1a2258818d; 2017-06-14 at 06:22 PM.

  12. #472
    Quote Originally Posted by Evildeffy View Post
    The point here is that the cables on PSUs were at the point of becoming bare due to melting insulating plastic.
    In order to prevent this from happening it means that there must be 2 x 8-Pin in order to distribute the load and lower temperatures/load on cables.
    We're talking about an Amperage here that can kill a human being with ease when it becomes that hot and remember that resistance values alter the hotter the cables become.
    As I said, a non-issue. If 2nd 8 pin has to be added it would be. A lot of boards that dont need it already have it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evildeffy View Post
    Again no, because you're not reading what I wrote once again:
    Current cold plates/heatsink base on high-end coolers, air and water, are already large enough to encompass the TR4 socket, the only requirement is to create a bracket so it would fit on it, now since the socket is known in the server world as well as that it's similar to LGA2011/LGA2066 it will likely host the same type of design where no backplate alteration is required and will be mounted on-top of the socket directly.
    No cooler change is necessary unless you really want TR4 only coolers, regardless no basic cooler will be sufficient, like Hyper 212 series, because of the small base.
    I havent seen a single coldplate what would cover TR4 socket (nice to know the name btw, ty). Look at a common ASETEK design used by most AIO makers: it's circle shaped, just barely large enough to cover AM4 socket and TR4 is at least 50% higher than that, and I probably a bit wider. The shape is going to be more problematic than anything here. For aircoolers it's even more problematic - most aircoolers come with a base too small to cover even a 2011-3 socket, which is way smaller (famous Noctua D15 is one of them).


    Quote Originally Posted by Evildeffy View Post
    Technically dual GPU cards adhere to this standard and are capable of being cooled by air, it'll be big but it's doable.
    The HD7990 or R9 295x2 are examples of such where the GPUs alone can pull easily in excess of 450W and be cooled by air.
    Whether you like the noise or not is another matter.
    None of the dual GPU designs could actually run both of those chips as high clocked as single card, largely due to the fact that you cannot simply double the VRM for both chips, making each chip having to run on inferior VRM (for example R9 295X2 had 6 phase VRM for each chip, while R9 290X typically had a 10 phase).
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  13. #473
    Fluffy Kitten Remilia's Avatar
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    No PSU specifies what kind of load the wires and insulation can handle. PSU specification is only for the output lanes for 3.3V/5V/12V at a certain temperature.
    The only "number" you can really get for the wire is the gauge, typically 16 or 18 gauge with 16 gauge being for higher wattage.

  14. #474
    Deleted
    No, but they usually do specify what currents they allow on what rail and which cables are connected to what rail - at least they should.
    And the cables (and connectors) they use have to be designed to handle that load.

  15. #475
    The Lightbringer Evildeffy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lloewe View Post
    If the PSU is rated for that kind of current and the cables get that hot the either the PSU is lying about its abilities or the cable has a defect.
    Again ... the connector on the mobo is officially rated for that, not the cables on the PSU.
    AWG16 wires, the commonly used "size" for even high-end PSUs and AWG16 wires has a rating of 22A, that's still 264W and it's got a little more tolerance but that's on the safe side.
    Which means at least 264W was going through the EPS cables, PSUs aren't the issue as it's "up to" 28A on the connector and AWG14 wires are required to reach 28A safely, gets a little bit thick to use.

    Quote Originally Posted by lloewe View Post
    True, but absolutely irrelevant.

    You can touch the blank cables if you wanted to and nothing would happen, because the current needs to flow *through* your body to be dangerous - not through a wire you're touching, and 12V won't be able to drive a significant current though your (dry) body.

    In fact any current flowing into your mainboard would be deadly if it were to flow though your body as anything above 0.1A can be lethal.
    However since the body has a relatively high resistance none of the voltages present on a mainboard are dangerous, regardless of the current in the wires, simply because of the body's high resistance.
    I dare you to try holding 8 red hot glowing wires which consist of ground and 12V at those temperatures will sear through your skin as if it doesn't exist and come into contact with your blood pretty easily, especially around the finger area.. let's see what happens then :P

    If you've ever seen what transformers (the electrical devices, not robots from space) can do with Amps and what it can do to people... you'd be terrified to go near one ever again, having worked for Noratel I've seen some crazy shit happen and some wasn't pretty.

    Quote Originally Posted by lloewe View Post
    Which would be a problem with the PSU specification then if it is rated for 28A on that line.
    Again no as it's the connector on the mobo rated for that not what the PSU is supposed to deliver.

  16. #476
    Fluffy Kitten Remilia's Avatar
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    That's assuming multiple rail PSU, with a single rail PSU that just isn't possible.

  17. #477
    The Lightbringer Evildeffy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderball View Post
    As I said, a non-issue. If 2nd 8 pin has to be added it would be. A lot of boards that dont need it already have it.
    Yes but you're still missing my point about what occurs and you not being able to count on overclocking all the time.
    Think about it a 10C draws so much power that it exceeds 264W with ease to the CPU alone to bring an AWG16 cable close to the point of melting.
    Putting 2 x 8-Pin on a mobo is fine, like you said it's done before... but how are you going to control 18C when you try to overclock that?
    Think about that for a second and what would happen to VRM/MOSFET loads and wire loads.

    3 x 8-Pin is a possibility but will require convertors as far as I know no PSU exists so far that has the spot for 3 x 8-Pin nor do you get the cables for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderball View Post
    I havent seen a single coldplate what would cover TR4 socket (nice to know the name btw, ty). Look at a common ASETEK design used by most AIO makers: it's circle shaped, just barely large enough to cover AM4 socket and TR4 is at least 50% higher than that, and I probably a bit wider. The shape is going to be more problematic than anything here. For aircoolers it's even more problematic - most aircoolers come with a base too small to cover even a 2011-3 socket, which is way smaller (famous Noctua D15 is one of them).
    I know the Cryorig R1 Ultimate and Be Quiet! Dark Rock 3 (Pro) have larger heatsink bases and my Corsair Hydro H110i "GTX" has a square cold plate which is larger than an LGA2011-v3 socket by a fair margin, should be enough contact for TR4, either which way if there's a simple copper plate extension you screw onto the base and connect it via another TIM interface, that would easily work.
    As long as it transfers to the heatsink base/cold plate.. it's fine, less than optimal and there will certainly be TR4 coolers but this is easily 1 way of doing so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderball View Post
    None of the dual GPU designs could actually run both of those chips as high clocked as single card, largely due to the fact that you cannot simply double the VRM for both chips, making each chip having to run on inferior VRM (for example R9 295X2 had 6 phase VRM for each chip, while R9 290X typically had a 10 phase).
    Wanna bet that it could be done? It was easily doable... but it was fking loud
    The simple point was that it could draw that and did if you OC-ed it to the single GPU levels, which was piss easy to do.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by lloewe View Post
    No, but they usually do specify what currents they allow on what rail and which cables are connected to what rail - at least they should.
    And the cables (and connectors) they use have to be designed to handle that load.
    I don't know of a single PSU that specifies what cable is connected to what rail.
    They will only specify Amp allowance per rail and from that point you're on your own, they don't expect you to pull 300W from a single 8-Pin connection.
    Why do you think the PCIe 8-Pin connectors are rated @ 150W by ISO standards?

    Why would a CPU 8-Pin connector be allowed double that?

  18. #478
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evildeffy View Post
    Again ... the connector on the mobo is officially rated for that, not the cables on the PSU.
    No, but PSUs have ratings too. So either they used a PSU that wasn't rated for that current or it was broken/lying.

    I dare you to try holding 8 red hot glowing wires which consist of ground and 12V at those temperatures will sear through your skin as if it doesn't exist and come into contact with your blood pretty easily, especially around the finger area.. let's see what happens then :P
    The problem would be the heat - not the current.
    Even if the wire made contact with the blood it likely still wouldn't kill you - for one the current would flow between your fingers and even if you touched it with different hands it still won't be enough I think. IIRC the internal resistance of the human body is about 300-1000 Ohm resulting about 0.01-0.04A for 12V.

    And either way that has nothing to do with the current flowing through the wire. The situation would be the same if you touched a wire with much less current or much more.
    Touching a wire conducting 10kA at 1V is harmless - touching one with 1A at 10kV will kill you.

    If you've ever seen what transformers (the electrical devices, not robots from space) can do with Amps and what it can do to people... you'd be terrified to go near one ever again, having worked for Noratel I've seen some crazy shit happen and some wasn't pretty.
    Well those tend to deal with high voltages which can easily drive enough current through people to kill them. Yes, it's the current that kills you, but you need the voltage to drive it through the body.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Evildeffy View Post
    I don't know of a single PSU that specifies what cable is connected to what rail.
    Well decent PSUs tend to have documentation - cheap china knockoffs probably don't.
    e.g. https://de.evga.com/support/manuals/...20-PG-0650.pdf

    Why do you think the PCIe 8-Pin connectors are rated @ 150W by ISO standards?
    Why would a CPU 8-Pin connector be allowed double that?
    Haven't looked at the data that lead to either number so you'd have to ask those who made the specs.
    Last edited by mmoc1a2258818d; 2017-06-14 at 11:15 PM.

  19. #479
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    Quote Originally Posted by lloewe View Post
    No, but PSUs have ratings too. So either they used a PSU that wasn't rated for that current or it was broken/lying.
    It probably was not rated for it, like I said PSUs don't tell you what the EPS12V connector can deliver but considering 8-Pin PCIe connectors are the same wires and rails it doesn't change anything.
    The PSU can handle the rating, the wire simply cannot handle that much Amps, the PSU isn't lying or is defective, it's just exceeding what the cables are capable of because you're pushing at least 270W through a set of cables which normally handle 150W.

    Quote Originally Posted by lloewe View Post
    The problem would be the heat - not the current.
    Even if the wire made contact with the blood it likely still wouldn't kill you - for one the current would flow between your fingers and even if you touched it with different hands it still won't be enough I think. IIRC the internal resistance of the human body is about 300-1000 Ohm resulting about 0.01-0.04A for 12V.

    And either way that has nothing to do with the current flowing through the wire. The situation would be the same if you touched a wire with much less current or much more.
    Touching a wire conducting 10kA at 1V is harmless - touching one with 1A at 10kV will kill you.
    Ah you would normally if it's just 12V or GND, in this case you have both.
    12V can easily kill you if the Amps are high enough but that's beside the point of this discussion, it was simply meant to give you (not you specifically) an idea that that amount of current is actually dangerous.

    Quote Originally Posted by lloewe View Post
    Well those tend to deal with high voltages which can easily drive enough current through people to kill them. Yes, it's the current that kills you, but you need the voltage to drive it through the body.
    Transformers come in literally all Voltage formats and trust me even a tiny one can kill you.
    But again like above besides the point just to state that 28A is not a current you want to dick about with.

    Quote Originally Posted by lloewe View Post
    Well decent PSUs tend to have documentation - cheap china knockoffs probably don't.
    e.g. https://de.evga.com/support/manuals/...20-PG-0650.pdf
    Yeah but even most quality ones do not tell you other than a broad general statement and even in your example it's just the entire connector to what rail, not what every individual connector and cable can.
    Only what the PSU can in total, and like I said ... it's not lying nor is it defective, it's simply pushing too much through the cables which aren't rated for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by lloewe View Post
    Haven't looked at the data that lead to either number so you'd have to ask those who made the specs.
    My point was to draw a parallel between PCIe 8-Pin and CPU 8-Pin, they are the same cables and deliver the same amount thus should be rated close to if not identically the same.
    An overclocker is of course a person whom, by nature of the name, goes beyond the specifications of the manufacturer and that's fine.
    The point here is that that limit is reached by high core counts at our current technology level, the 10C version is already pushing beyond the limit so the 18C version will be clocked down AND if overclocked push the limit of 2 x 8-Pin as well.

    So we'll either see a rise in 3 x CPU 8-Pin PSUs or we'll see soft limits being imposed in BIOSes, which do you think is more likely since the entire PSU business handles in 2 x 8-Pin even in their high-end?

  20. #480
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evildeffy View Post
    12V can easily kill you if the Amps are high enough but that's beside the point of this discussion, it was simply meant to give you (not you specifically) an idea that that amount of current is actually dangerous.
    For 12V to drive enough current through your body to kill you, you'd probably have to stick two needles into your heart or similar.

    There is no way 12V will have any serious impact on a person touching the wire with their dry skin, regardless of how many amps are flowing through the wire you touch. And even if you improve the skin's conductivity it'll only give you an unpleasant mild shock without lasting harm.


    Transformers come in literally all Voltage formats and trust me even a tiny one can kill you.
    Indeed, and those containing high voltage can kill you and those with low voltage can't - regardless of size or amps (unless we're talking about falling onto your head or another malfunction that causes the generation of higher voltages).


    But again like above besides the point just to state that 28A is not a current you want to dick about with.

    Again: current in a wire is fairly meaningless as long as it isn't flowing through your body. And it won't unless the voltage is high enough to force it.
    I'd happily lick a wire with 100A or more flowing through it, as long as the voltage is low enough.
    Last edited by mmoc1a2258818d; 2017-06-15 at 12:38 AM.

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